The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[alpha2117]

13 hours ago, juan_historico said:

But i also feel like every "Division" has to be something to fight for. It´s like saying UFC has too many belts, i dont really agree with that. For me, the only one who can really, reaaaaaaallly be remove its the FTW. Because it was bringed at a time that AEW doesnt have as much titles as today, and also it´s booking it wasn´t the strongest to be honest. Nowadays to me it´s the perfect representation of a prop more than a legit championship, even more having in mind that it´s legacy was that it´s LITERALLY something Taz put out of his ass back in ECW 🤣.

 

The problem is are the divisions?  People wander in and out of these belt contests haphazardly.  Those mid-card Mens belts feel interchangeable and meaningless and the American/International feels like a de-facto Main Belt now - they feel like props rather than something meaningful because they just sort of exist to give people something to carry around.  I like the in-ring product and I like the people performing but the way it's structured all too often doesn't carry weight.  Sadly I think that comes down to Tony Khan not really being a natural booker and just sort of doing stuff without really understanding the long term implications.  Those mid card belts actually sort of hurt the people competing for them right now because of being something that feels like it has meaning it feels like it's saying - these are mid card guys competing for this thing that has no real meaning. In something like the WWE the mid-card belts feel like they are for the workhorses and those using it as a stepping stone to get to the next level but in AEW it doesn't feel like they are a stepping stone, more a rock dragging you down.

Edited August 28 by alpha2117

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

20 hours ago, juan_historico said:

But i also feel like every "Division" has to be something to fight for. It´s like saying UFC has too many belts, i dont really agree with that. For me, the only one who can really, reaaaaaaallly be remove its the FTW. Because it was bringed at a time that AEW doesnt have as much titles as today, and also it´s booking it wasn´t the strongest to be honest. Nowadays to me it´s the perfect representation of a prop more than a legit championship, even more having in mind that it´s legacy was that it´s LITERALLY something Taz put out of his ass back in ECW 🤣.

 

I think that's actually the problem -- the belts aren't for different divisions or weight classes. Yes, the TBS and TNT belts technically are TV Titles but they're defended on and feuded on PPV just as much. 

AEW has five men's singles championships -- seven if you count the ROH World and ROH Pure Titles and 8 if you count the NJPW Strong Title which is consistently defended on AEW TV. There just isn't a need for that many titles when the promotion has two hours of "main roster" (for lack of a better word) programming each week.

No one needs 7 intercontinental belts, there just aren't that many midcarders worth pushing on a given roster!

Now if AEW had a cruiserweight division or a Television-only championship, then the belts would mean something -- or even if non-American talent were almost always competing for a belt -- or if a belt is contested under different rules like 2/3 Falls or Catch as Catch Can -- that belt would have a function on the roster. 

Excluding the rarely-defended on Dynamite Pure Rules Title, none of the AEW Belts are any different from the World Title -- wrestlers compete for secondary belts because they aren't good enough to hold the world title, not because they're the best in the world at what they do. 

When you have *7* secondary belts, you devalue your own champions. AEW de-values its own champions.

 

Edited August 29 by ColdBloodedSausageMaker

[juan_historico]

I respond to you both in one message to save some space😁

I can see both or your point, but for me the problem is how you book the belt in the end. Because when the All-Atlantic (now International) appears for the first time, everybody were thinking that i´ll be lost in the shuffle. Then, with good booking and good performances by its holders, it rise and differenciate from the rest of the secondary belts and gets elevated.

And for the rest of the belts its the same. For me you are not the devaluating the holder of the belt, but the belt itself in most of the instances that you guys said. I think is ok to have that number of belts, but im not saying i´m okey with the way some of them are book. I think for example, the Trios Belts was a perfect addition to a company with plenty of 3-4 men group´s who can work, and serve as platform to keep individual and grupal storylines moving. That´s not the case right now, but i want to see how the BCC and Pac thing goes. I get the point that those belts could mean a stepping stone, but i kind of like the idea that every belt its important by itself and have prestige, like the X-Division in TNA at the begining.

In the end, in think more and less we are in the same page in some core aspects of the issue, but we disagree in others.

[MightyDavidson]

So apparently Danielson's first challenge for his new title is....Jack Perry.  I mean Okada's far more over with the crowd and Okada/Danielson would make a far more profitable main event but sure, let's give Luchasauraus' luggage a title shot.  

[Big Roguey]

1 minute ago, MightyDavidson said:

So apparently Danielson's first challenge for his new title is....Jack Perry.  I mean Okada's far more over with the crowd and Okada/Danielson would make a far more profitable main event but sure, let's give Luchasauraus' luggage a title shot.  

In fairness, recently in AEW Perry has a direct win over Danielson, is on a roll since coming back and just beat the noted #1 contender at All In so it's not as if they plucked him out of a hat. With the focus for All Out most likely being on Swerve/Hanger in the cage, this is a fine B tier title match.

[alpha2117]

22 hours ago, juan_historico said:

I respond to you both in one message to save some space😁

I can see both or your point, but for me the problem is how you book the belt in the end. Because when the All-Atlantic (now International) appears for the first time, everybody were thinking that i´ll be lost in the shuffle. Then, with good booking and good performances by its holders, it rise and differenciate from the rest of the secondary belts and gets elevated.

And for the rest of the belts its the same. For me you are not the devaluating the holder of the belt, but the belt itself in most of the instances that you guys said. I think is ok to have that number of belts, but im not saying i´m okey with the way some of them are book. I think for example, the Trios Belts was a perfect addition to a company with plenty of 3-4 men group´s who can work, and serve as platform to keep individual and grupal storylines moving. That´s not the case right now, but i want to see how the BCC and Pac thing goes. I get the point that those belts could mean a stepping stone, but i kind of like the idea that every belt its important by itself and have prestige, like the X-Division in TNA at the begining.

In the end, in think more and less we are in the same page in some core aspects of the issue, but we disagree in others.

I dont think the All Atlantic/ American / International belt means anything at all .... it feels like it's been tacked on to give Main Eventers who aren't in the Main belt picture at that moment some token thing to fight over.  I think the booking has been terrible - the only thing that meant anything was that good workers were at least involved but the belt itself just is sort of there and I dont think anyone gives a darn about it.  If anything it' the most meaningless of all the mid-card belts in AEW - at least the other ones could be argued to be a stepping stone (even though they haven't been used that way) the ever changing name belt is just a prop.

I know you disagree but the thing is the ratings suggest people have grown a bit tired of the way AEW is booked and I think a lot of that has to do with it often not feeling like it has a real sense of direction.  The in ring talent is definitely there but theres just not a sense of direction with most of their booking - stuff just sort of happens and in 3 months nobody really remembers it. I wish it was different but it's not.   We would all be happier if the various major companies were performing and booking well but right now AEW is fine in ring but sort of treading water in terms of storylines. 

 

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

13 hours ago, alpha2117 said:

I dont think the All Atlantic/ American / International belt means anything at all .... it feels like it's been tacked on to give Main Eventers who aren't in the Main belt picture at that moment some token thing to fight over.  I think the booking has been terrible - the only thing that meant anything was that good workers were at least involved but the belt itself just is sort of there and I dont think anyone gives a darn about it.  If anything it' the most meaningless of all the mid-card belts in AEW - at least the other ones could be argued to be a stepping stone (even though they haven't been used that way) the ever changing name belt is just a prop.

I know you disagree but the thing is the ratings suggest people have grown a bit tired of the way AEW is booked and I think a lot of that has to do with it often not feeling like it has a real sense of direction.  The in ring talent is definitely there but theres just not a sense of direction with most of their booking - stuff just sort of happens and in 3 months nobody really remembers it. I wish it was different but it's not.   We would all be happier if the various major companies were performing and booking well but right now AEW is fine in ring but sort of treading water in terms of storylines. 

 

I agree and disagree here. I think AEW has booked their top guys well. (At least) Online, fans have praised both Danielson vs. Swerve and Ospreay vs. MJF -- Danielson winning the belt in particular has drawn a lot of praise.

AEW hasn't bookd the rest of the card well. Tony keeps pushing the wrong talent on TV. From the quarter to quarter breakdowns, the midcard appears to drag down the ratings. I don't think the fans like The Elite or Britt Baker and would rather see Hook or Willow Nightingale (among others) focused on instead.

Edited August 30 by ColdBloodedSausageMaker

[Jaysin]

All In was so fun I'm trying to make time for Dynamite again. This week's episode felt largely forgettable though. Did Christian get mentioned at all? I did have to leave the room at one point, so it's possible I missed it. 

Fantasy booking: I hope after Bryan has a series of excellent title defenses, he faces Nigel McGuinness in a match where it looks like either one can win and Bryan gets the win barely. He's a bloody mess and then Christian's music hits and he cashes in his title shot and ends Bryan's full time career. 

Fits his character so perfectly. 

[alpha2117]

6 hours ago, ColdBloodedSausageMaker said:

I agree and disagree here. I think AEW has booked their top guys well. (At least) Online, fans have praised both Danielson vs. Swerve and Ospreay vs. MJF -- Danielson winning the belt in particular has drawn a lot of praise.

AEW hasn't bookd the rest of the card well. Tony keeps pushing the wrong talent on TV. From the quarter to quarter breakdowns, the midcard appears to drag down the ratings. I don't think the fans like The Elite or Britt Baker and would rather see Hook or Willow Nightingale (among others) focused on instead.

I disagree in that I dont think the top guys have been booked well - look at the beginning of the year - Joe's turn was just done randomly - had he been the Devil then it would have worked but instead it just sort of happened and his subsequent title win felt anti-climactic as a result.  The same angle killed MJF's momentum - the fact he is good enough to recover is him not the booking.  Cole was killed by the same storyline with his reveal being ill-timed - He couldn't wrestle so it fell flat and it had been so heavily signposted that nobody really cared anyway.  Is Osprey a face or a heel - he was with Callis - why? Osprey is great but again his debut was handled poorly and his character in the product feels ill defined.  Okada should have been a big deal - instead he's an Elite lackey.  Edge's debut was botched Shockmaster style frankly killing the hype really quickly. Danielson is always class and I like Swerve but I think in many ways it's their ability rather than the booking that's getting their stuff to work.  Like I said in ring they are golden with talent like that but the booking of said talent has prevented AEW growing.  Thats why the ratings have stagnated and even gone backward.  Witht he talent they hae they should be stronger.

I agree on Hook and frankly the booking of Kyle Fletcher is so awful that he should request a release because you can only put on bangers but job every time so long before people perceive you as a mid-carder and it's clear from the matches he's more than that.  

The only truly brilliant storyline I can think of is Toni Storm's.  That has worked gangbusters but most everything else is a case of great talent and relatively poor booking.  As an Owner Tony Khan is great as a Booker I think he needs to step back and let people with a more natural feel and more experience do most of that with him adding some input. As long as he's booking like an Amateur playing TEWIX AEW will be stuck where it is on the pecking order largely wasting what is one of the most talented rosters ever assembled.   

 

[alpha2117]

2 hours ago, Jaysin said:

All In was so fun I'm trying to make time for Dynamite again. This week's episode felt largely forgettable though. Did Christian get mentioned at all? I did have to leave the room at one point, so it's possible I missed it. 

Fantasy booking: I hope after Bryan has a series of excellent title defenses, he faces Nigel McGuinness in a match where it looks like either one can win and Bryan gets the win barely. He's a bloody mess and then Christian's music hits and he cashes in his title shot and ends Bryan's full time career. 

Fits his character so perfectly. 

I agree with most of that but I would tweak it - I sort of think him making someone is the better endgame though.  Okada's run has been anti-climactic but an epic win over Danielson might change that especially if he was to turn face. Kyle Fletcher, HOOK, Darby Allin and a couple of other guys like that are stuck perennially in the mid-card right now but have the ability to break through due to their in-ring ability.  If one of them was to defeat Bryan and then be robbed of a proper run by Chrisitan in the way you described then their chase to get the title back could be compelling and would make Bryan's final match more significant especially if he was to be in the person who ended his in ring careers corner for a rematch with Chrisitan.  I'm a mark for Fletcher and I think he fits best as much like Bryan he's the guy putting on banger after banger but not getting the wins or the push those matches indicate he should be getting but almost any of the talented young guys could work.

Bryan definitely feels like the right guy to put over a young talent on the way out or Okada to try to make him in the US. If it was just Chrisitan going over then I dont know if it would mean as much because Christian doesn't need that rub.    

Edited August 31 by alpha2117

[psx]

me watched latest dynamite, me enjoy, me happy c :

Edited September 1 by psx

[Mootinie]

On 8/31/2024 at 2:28 AM, alpha2117 said:

Kyle Fletcher, HOOK, Darby Allin and a couple of other guys like that are stuck perennially in the mid-card right now but have the ability to break through due to their in-ring ability.

I don't think Hook belongs in this sentence. I think he's actually very average and I'm starting to get worried he's not progressing or improving at all. He's also not really over. He feels like an old meme to me. Like a joke that used to be amusing but now it's just kinda like oh, we're still doing that are we? Are we still in 2021? No part of his act has evolved or developed even one step since that one Ricky Starks match.

Darby Allin has main evented three AEW PPV's now.

Kyle Fletcher is obviously quite good and AEW obviously quite like him so I am not sure what part of his booking draws criticism. Until a few weeks ago I don't think he had ever cut a promo in the ring by himself. He's taking his opportunities, he's getting exposure and he's attracting the right sort of talk about his abilities. 

[alpha2117]

1 hour ago, Mootinie said:

I don't think Hook belongs in this sentence. I think he's actually very average and I'm starting to get worried he's not progressing or improving at all. He's also not really over. He feels like an old meme to me. Like a joke that used to be amusing but now it's just kinda like oh, we're still doing that are we? Are we still in 2021? No part of his act has evolved or developed even one step since that one Ricky Starks match.

Darby Allin has main evented three AEW PPV's now.

Kyle Fletcher is obviously quite good and AEW obviously quite like him so I am not sure what part of his booking draws criticism. Until a few weeks ago I don't think he had ever cut a promo in the ring by himself. He's taking his opportunities, he's getting exposure and he's attracting the right sort of talk about his abilities. 

Dont disagree - HOOK hasn't seemed to progress but he did show the ability to get over before poorish booking cost him that early momentum and left him treading water.  Allin was largely the 2nd banana in the events he was at the top of the card in - of the 3 he's the one who would probably be the most logical to be put over.  Fletcher is clearly a class above most of the guys his age coming through in AEW in ring, to me Bryan putting him over at the end of his current storyline would make the most sense. I really dont care which of these three or any of the other young lions go over as long as AEW doesn't waste another opportunity by not having Bryan put someone like them over in that final match.  

[alpha2117]

So another Dynamite and another Kyle Fletcher banger where he loses - at least it was a tainted win by Okada and it's Okada so there's no shame in it but Kyle being the jobber to the stars is becoming a problem ... I just hope there's a plan but history suggests there isn't. 

[psx]

strong dynamite, we got arson, me enjoy c :

[Dalton]

On 9/5/2024 at 7:46 PM, alpha2117 said:

So another Dynamite and another Kyle Fletcher banger where he loses - at least it was a tainted win by Okada and it's Okada so there's no shame in it but Kyle being the jobber to the stars is becoming a problem ... I just hope there's a plan but history suggests there isn't. 

History suggests there is a plan. One of Tony Khan's booking tropes is when there is a young and rising star he wants to push but there isn't a clear spot quite yet, they lose on TV every week to top guys. Darby, Takeshita, Yuta, Garcia, Willow, etc. are examples. Fletcher losing but showing out every week is an indicator that a true push is upcoming, oddly enough. 

It's up to the viewer to decide if they like this strategy. I'd rather see Fletcher rocket-strapped and winning, and AEW runs the risk of going too far with the losses, but it's an indication that 2025 will likely see a lot of Fletcher on top. 

[alpha2117]

1 hour ago, Dalton said:

History suggests there is a plan. One of Tony Khan's booking tropes is when there is a young and rising star he wants to push but there isn't a clear spot quite yet, they lose on TV every week to top guys. Darby, Takeshita, Yuta, Garcia, Willow, etc. are examples. Fletcher losing but showing out every week is an indicator that a true push is upcoming, oddly enough. 

It's up to the viewer to decide if they like this strategy. I'd rather see Fletcher rocket-strapped and winning, and AEW runs the risk of going too far with the losses, but it's an indication that 2025 will likely see a lot of Fletcher on top. 

Has any of those plans really ever worked?  Are they plans?  I have no idea but how many are Main Eventers or even close really?  It always feels haphazard to me.  If it's a plan it's a bad one.  It didn't work before so why should it work now?  You can list maybe 20 young guys in AEW who have had the same bungled handling and none of them have been made into Main Eventers - Allin is the closest and even then it's borderline.

 

[Mootinie]

Another banger PPV from AEW. This company just does not miss on PPV. All Out was an awesome event.

[alpha2117]

2 hours ago, Mootinie said:

Another banger PPV from AEW. This company just does not miss on PPV. All Out was an awesome event.

I agree - my issues with them are always about the week to week booking rarely with the actual in-ring side of things.

[MightyDavidson]

20 minutes ago, alpha2117 said:

I agree - my issues with them are always about the week to week booking rarely with the actual in-ring side of things.

Like the fact that they're going to have to actually book Daniel Garcia to beat somebody of note, if they actually want him to become a big star.  I'd say Danielson being booted from the BCC was random but I've only been skimming reviews rather then watching the show, so I probably missed foreshadowing that explained that.

[alpha2117]

24 minutes ago, MightyDavidson said:

Like the fact that they're going to have to actually book Daniel Garcia to beat somebody of note, if they actually want him to become a big star.  I'd say Danielson being booted from the BCC was random but I've only been skimming reviews rather then watching the show, so I probably missed foreshadowing that explained that.

I assume with Bryan it was that he is now pure babyface over his final run and the BCC are heel leaning if not pure heel.  

[DarK_RaideR]

Enjoyed the MJF-Garcia match for what it was, a predictable match giving MJF a defence and Garcia some exposure. Really feels like the goal here is to make something out of Garcia, which is also the test for MJF, he can get himself over but can he elevate others too. Bucks vs BCC was servicable in the moment, if somewhat indifferent and forgettable in the long run. Osperay vs Pac was great, but that was to be expected by these two. Willow vs Statlander was also quite amazing, a surprise banger for me. The 4 way match felt like a random bout on Dynamite. Mone has go away heat from me, so that was the worst part of the night. Yet again, the TBS title was defended and the Women's World title nowhere to be seen, just like the latter was buried in the undercard of All Out way below the former. Danielson vs Perry was again, predictable, but fun, although the finish will likely overshadow everything and not in a good way. Same thing with the Hangman-Swerve main event, I couldn't think of how they could top their previous match but they did, if only for that finish.

 

13 hours ago, MightyDavidson said:

I'd say Danielson being booted from the BCC was random but I've only been skimming reviews rather then watching the show, so I probably missed foreshadowing that explained that.

I saw Mox back in the last episode of Dynamite, followed by a stern Marina Shafir (let's hope this sees her booked right, after the fiasco that was her with Vickie Guerrero and Nyla Rose). He said Perry's alright in his book (heel alert) and he cut a promo saying he just wanted to talk to Darby Allin. Felt like he's recruiting, either for BCC or a new faction, based on members being tough badasses, so kinda like BCC began before they fell apart like NJPW's Chaos faction. It wasn't focused on Danielson per se, but in my head he's probably stealing the faction from him, on the premise that he's on his way out and probably too smiley for Mox's liking.

[Matt_Black]

I think he's going to demand that Darby Allin give him the title shot at Grand Slam, because he wants to be the one to retire Danielson. Darby, of course, will say something like, "You can't talk me into doing something I don't want to do, and you sure as hell don't intimidate me."

The Shafir addition was just them being mean. When Mox is talking and suddenly this woman shows up beating up random people in the back, I was all "OHMYGOD THEY GOT BECK- oh. Oh, it's just Marina Shafir. I suddenly don't care at all about this storyline."

[GooverDan]

I like that AEW's instant follow up to a hot PPV match between Danielson and Swerve was to put freaking Jack Perry into the next defence. Anytime they get an ounce of momentum, they undercut it via "Elite" shenanigans. At least with the Jericho Vortex, it didn't consume any titles of value after 2023. The Bucks have been tag-team champions for nearly 150 days and had two defences.

[MightyDavidson]

4 minutes ago, GooverDan said:

I like that AEW's instant follow up to a hot PPV match between Danielson and Swerve was to put freaking Jack Perry into the next defense. Anytime they get an ounce of momentum, they undercut it via "Elite" shenanigans. At least with the Jericho Vortex, it didn't consume any titles of value after 2023. The Bucks have been tag-team champions for nearly 150 days and had two defenses.

The same number of defenses Jack Perry has for the TNT title if memory serves and one of those was against Marko Stunt for crying out loud!