Public Beta Reaction Thread

[ZMAN]

<p>Heh if you force yourself, the UI makes more sense as you tread through the weeks. I've adapted to it, but it maybe because I've been playing since the 2005 version. </p><p> </p><p>

For new players or dudes dedicated to real world data, I can see it being a nightmare. </p><p> </p><p>

After doing 2 months of several CV promotions, I've gotten to the point where I can flow through the UI. </p><p> </p><p>

IDK, I see the flaws but at the same time, as a regular user, it eventually clicks. </p><p> </p><p>

I'll buy it, but I can see why some of the 2016 guys are frustrated.</p><p> </p><p>

Adam's got a funny way of hooking the loyals but mehhh I'd be intimidated if I wanted something simple/to the point.</p>

[Xendarii]

<p>Genadi is absolutely hitting the nail on the head with his recent posts. </p><p> </p><p>

That said, I'd like to apologise because I'm one of the people who are really frustrated about the UI that have been taken it a bit too far by attacking other users who seem to have no issues with it. Obviously, their opinion is as valid as anyone else's, and I forgot about that a bit in the heat of the moment.</p><p> </p><p>

However, what I won't take back is saying that the UI, in my eyes, is a giant pile of garbage - and, as Genadi has put it, as a (potentially) paying customer and an actually paying customer in the past, I should have any right to say that without getting flamed for it. I don't mean to attack anyone personally with such statements, neither Adam - who's doing amazing work with the TEW games for the most time - nor anyone else who was involved with the UI design. But seriously, getting constantly told that "you'll get used to it" and stuff like that makes me only angrier because I feel like some people around here aren't open to any kind of valid criticism whatsoever.</p><p> </p><p>

And I'd also like to second that the opinion of people who have been around here posting for a long time is in absolutely no way worth more than the opinion of a lurker or even someone who's only recently joined the forums.</p>

[ZMAN]

I think you gotta look at Adam's intent with the UI. It's not perfect but there are a lot of quality of life features in this version of TEW. I thought using a search bar was dumb but once you've utilized it you get what he's going after.

[Xendarii]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Blake Trask" data-cite="Blake Trask" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's toxic because it's rude, insulting, and actually <em>has</em> been personal attacks in many cases. The game's been called awful, stated to be not worth $5, the testers have been called sycophants and worse, people have called the UI developer an amateur, insulted the renderers, etc etc etc etc.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've used most of these terms, but <strong>not</strong> for the whole game, only for the user interface. And if that's your definition of toxic, I heavily disagree.</p><p> </p><p> Yes, I think that the UI is awful. Yes, I have seen user interfaces in games that were released 15 years ago and had a smaller price tag that looked vastly superior to this one. Yes, I believe that releasing a UI like this in 2020 in a game that costs 35 € <em>and</em> makes you spend 100 % of your time playing it using and looking at that exact UI is an absolute insolence towards potentially paying customers.</p><p> </p><p> Nothing of that is toxic. Nothing of that is a personal attack. It's called criticism, and if you're charging 35 € for a game like this, you better be ready to listen to it because otherwise you're losing your customers. And if you're a fan of the games, just accept that there are (a lot of) people out there who absolutely don't like parts of it, just as I and others have to accept that there are those who like the new UI.</p>

[Bull]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Xendarii" data-cite="Xendarii" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Genadi is absolutely hitting the nail on the head with his recent posts. <p> </p><p> That said, I'd like to apologise because I'm one of the people who are really frustrated about the UI that have been taken it a bit too far by attacking other users who seem to have no issues with it. Obviously, their opinion is as valid as anyone else's, and I forgot about that a bit in the heat of the moment.</p><p> </p><p> However, what I won't take back is saying that the UI, in my eyes, is a giant pile of garbage - and, as Genadi has put it, as a (potentially) paying customer and an actually paying customer in the past, I should have any right to say that without getting flamed for it. I don't mean to attack anyone personally with such statements, neither Adam - who's doing amazing work with the TEW games for the most time - nor anyone else who was involved with the UI design. But seriously, getting constantly told that "you'll get used to it" and stuff like that makes me only angrier because I feel like some people around here aren't open to any kind of valid criticism whatsoever.</p><p> </p><p> And I'd also like to second that the opinion of people who have been around here posting for a long time is in absolutely no way worth more than the opinion of a lurker or even someone who's only recently joined the forums.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I feel like calling it garbage is a bit harsh personally, but I do understand much the frustration with it. Perhaps you'd be willing to elaborate on that opinion and some of the main area's you'd like to see the most changes in?</p><p> </p><p> My biggest frustration is office screen with... soo many buttons. and more buttons along the bottom many of which that do the same thing as all the buttons on that screen. . It just seems way overloaded with little to no organization. . perhaps the buttons on that screen could have the same organizational options as the bottom bar. . or just pick a set for that area and a set for the office area..</p>

[ZMAN]

<p>For the record, booking and roster management is a huge improvement once you get the hang of it. And read up on dude's perception thread if the new push system is throwing you off.</p><p> </p><p>

the UI could use some touch ups but overall, this is a worth upgrade lol</p>

[Lucas]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ZMAN" data-cite="ZMAN" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you gotta look at Adam's intent with the UI. It's not perfect but there are a lot of quality of life features in this version of TEW. I thought using a search bar was dumb but once you've utilized it you get what he's going after.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've also made the point there are some positives, but unfortunately, they came with drawbacks of their own. Which I think in 2020 it's fair to say some of these are just unacceptable, to have a list you're unable to scroll through with the mousewheel, or the UI behaving differently as a result. </p><p> </p><p> User Journeys and first impressions are huge. It takes a certain perseverance with TEW titles to learn this, but it's far from intuitive and a step back on previous versions as pointed out. I could go on, but someone else made these points about CTAs, basic principles to follow. </p><p> </p><p> Of course if you use something long enough, you'll know how to work with it. That doesn't mean, unfortunately that it's any good, or as good as it could be. Just because there's one good thing you like, doesn't invalidate the other things that you don't, unfortunately. And you might have lost customers before they could get to that point.</p><p> </p><p> Please don't bang this drum that there are some positives like X and Y when user is complaining about Z. It doesn't have anything to do with their valid criticism they are putting forward.</p><p> </p><p> You don't learn anything from a happy clapper, and nothing should ever be good enough, should always be looking for ways to improve wherever you possibly can. Hopefully, that will be achieved in the coming weeks.</p>

[Damo]

<p>Adam is a 20-year developer who is developing projects like it's 20 years ago. It's not "vitriol" to suggest that he hasn't kept up with trends in game design when he is releasing these types of interfaces and using the technologies that he's using. He could build a better interface, with a more modern design and features that people expect such as UI scaling in one of the free engines in a few days. This isn't a time issue, it almost certainly took him longer to build it this way than the modern way.</p><p> </p><p>

I said this in another thread but the problems here aren't to do with the interface specifically, they are project based. </p><p> </p><p>

The fact that the feedback from the private testers was SO positive that Adam believed the game would be very well received is an immediate red flag. Testers are "employed" to be overly critical and to break software, they aren't there to be friends with the developers and when the reception from them becomes like Adam has described then they become pretty useless to the process.</p><p> </p><p>

But again, this is a project problem rather than the fault of the testers. I'm sure that they were hyped to play the game and either were swept away with it or didn't want to seem "negative". Picking your testers from the most loyal fans is a recipe for disaster and there's a reason that no companies do this. You already have the money of those fans, he needed to reach further out in order to get clear feedback. Given the amount of problems that the game came into a public beta with, it's also clear that the testers didn't seem to take their role very seriously or more likely, weren't managed well. They wanted early access to the game and the fun that comes with that. I'd be interested to see the project documentation about testing strategies assigned to different testers but I fear that it probably doesn't exist.</p><p> </p><p>

The management of this game is fairly poor. A lack of a Steam release, the biggest gaming platform in the world, speaks to that as does the continued use of outdated designs and tech. As much as I feel disheartened to use the word, my overwhelming feeling as a developer looking at TEW2020 is that it feels so amateur. There are first year college students who are turning out more polished products than this and that's pretty damning and personally as a fan quite depressing. You can slice it any way that you want but there's screens in TEW2020 with over forty different buttons or UI Elements on it and that's crazy. </p><p> </p><p>

I feel that we're heading towards a Vince McMahon type situation, to use an analogy relevant to wrestling fans. Vince's way of thinking is very old and although he's the industry leader in a semi-niche market, he's there because of a lack of competitive alternatives. Moreover he's surrounded by people who are telling him how brilliant everything is and when criticism is offered, his comrades run to his defence. While that may not be a big problem on an internet forum, in any creative industry that is cancer to the project and sinks them faster than almost anything else.</p><p> </p><p>

There's so many factors that go into the future so it's pretty presumptuous to say "this should happen", but I'd probably argue that he should spend the next 3 months bug fixing and then move onto a 2022 release which uses modern game design fundamentals. There is no shortage of tutorials, literature, examples and code samples for him to upskill upon - it has never been easier to learn than it is now, especially if he's willing to invest money into this. </p><p> </p><p>

Again, it's 2020 and the game doesn't have a window resizing option. There's no excuse for that. It's a 5 minute job to introduce it.</p>

[Xendarii]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Bull" data-cite="Bull" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I feel like calling it garbage is a bit harsh personally, but I do understand much the frustration with it. Perhaps you'd be willing to elaborate on that opinion and some of the main area's you'd like to see the most changes in?<p> </p><p> My biggest frustration is office screen with... soo many buttons. and more buttons along the bottom many of which that do the same thing as all the buttons on that screen. . It just seems way overloaded with little to no organization. . perhaps the buttons on that screen could have the same organizational options as the bottom bar. . or just pick a set for that area and a set for the office area..</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I could call it bad or very bad instead, but I feel like that's not enough. As a developer myself (even though I don't do games), I'm simply baffled how someone can charge that amount of money for a user interface-based game that looks like it's been designed and programmed by a semi-professional 20 years ago. </p><p> </p><p> The fact that Adam has made clear that there won't be an overhaul - basically the only thing that could save the game for me - also leaves me with very little motivation to explain the issues I'm having with it in more detail, because a) it's not gonna change anyway and b) I don't even know where to start because there's literally two or three UI elements that I think are pretty nice, and most of the rest is horrible.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Damo has made some very valid points.</strong> Adam's using the limitations of the programming as an excuse to continue releasing games with trash UI and UX. It's his job as a full-time developer to keep his skills up-to-date and he has critically failed in doing so whatsoever. If the tools you're using don't allow you to develop a game that feels remotely modern, change your tools! This is not a free-to-play hobby game that's released as a service to the fanbase. It's a game that's relatively close to a full price tag! And, at least concerning the UI and UX, it's a freaking joke.</p>

[awesomenessofme1]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Damo" data-cite="Damo" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> The management of this game is fairly poor. A lack of a Steam release, the biggest gaming platform in the world, speaks to that as does the continued use of outdated designs and tech.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This take in particular doesn't make any sense to me. Why would lack of a Steam release speak to poor management of the game? The one and only reason for lack of a Steam release is that on a project like this, the amount of increased sales that would come wouldn't make up for the large cut of the price Steam takes. Or at least that's the belief. It's not like it's difficult at all to release a game on Steam.</p>

[Damo]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="awesomenessofme1" data-cite="awesomenessofme1" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This take in particular doesn't make any sense to me. Why would lack of a Steam release speak to poor management of the game? The one and only reason for lack of a Steam release is that on a project like this, the amount of increased sales that would come wouldn't make up for the large cut of the price Steam takes. Or at least that's the belief. It's not like it's difficult at all to release a game on Steam.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's more a project management than game development issue. Firstly in regards to ease of pirating the system they currently use plus the increased brand awareness, offers and the legacy sales, Steam is almost always worth it.</p><p> Any game from a serious developer in 2020 should be looking at releasing on the widest possible platforms. My point was that it speaks to a very old school mentality in their thinking.</p>

[ZMAN]

You guys are nuts if you expect him to hit the nail on the head for a super niche game like this. There are areas that can be improved but I doubt that he went into this project thinking that it would be the next Fortnite Lol. Steam, really? Those people aren’t gonna jump into a wrasslin simulator with the detail that we demand.

[FlightlessGypsy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="awesomenessofme1" data-cite="awesomenessofme1" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This take in particular doesn't make any sense to me. Why would lack of a Steam release speak to poor management of the game? The one and only reason for lack of a Steam release is that on a project like this, the amount of increased sales that would come wouldn't make up for the large cut of the price Steam takes. Or at least that's the belief. It's not like it's difficult at all to release a game on Steam.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Could you imagine believing in a store client monopoly so much that you use a games' choice to release independently as a negative point?</p>

[Idolized]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Genadi" data-cite="Genadi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Was doing my utmost to remain impartial but tbh most of the toxicity I've seen the past few days has been from members defending the demo and attacking people criticising it, calling them whingers, accusing them of being fake accounts and bringing their "Forum join date" into the conversation.<p> </p><p> I don't want to derail this thread. I posted what I did in an attempt to offer some perspective and reasoning for what's occurred here on the forums. Instead of this Us vs Them mentality I was hoping some would see a lot is just a lack of communication not a lack of respect as others are making out.</p><p> </p><p> Tone is hard to convey and understand on the internet, I suggest looking at content posted and debating that if it warrants and not picking apart tone because it's a slippery slope.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There have been personal attacks on the artists, testers and Adam. Most have been deleted, but there was plenty of toxicity that wasn’t valid criticism.</p>

[RazorsEdge]

The game is going to cost me roughly $55AUD to buy. In the game's current state I can no way justify a purchase - this is a loss of a sale that would've been there day 1 had the game been up to snuff. For comparison's sake, Football Manager 2020, another largely text based game (yes from a bigger developer, I know), I paid $60AUD - I can justify that because the game is polished (if not without its own flaws as well).

 

TEW2016 was such a solid foundation to build upon in that it didn't need to be completely reworked - it just needed some new features and expansion and tweaking of others. Instead what we have is a brand new game that without the Cornellverse looks like it very well could be from an entirely different developer.

 

Why do I now have to click extra screens and look through attributes to find out who is a good babyface or heel? Why do I have to click through to the skills page to find values in an acceptable font size? Why do I have to click a segment down when booking a card, then move down with it to click the tiny arrow again to move it down? Why can't I scroll in the majority of screens?

 

These are just a few examples of things that shouldn't have gotten through to this public demo stage.

 

There isn't really anything wrong with the skin itself, besides needing some duller lines, which Idolized has already mentioned he would work on. It is the design of the game itself which is in question.

 

None of this is supposed to be an attack on anyone - be it Adam or any of the testers - God knows I couldn't do half of what they've done - but this game is currently not worth the asking price and you're previous game which came out 4 years ago still is and I think that says something.

 

I look forward to seeing what work you can do patching out issues in the future and hope that the game will become a must buy once again.

[FlightlessGypsy]

You guys are nuts if you expect him to hit the nail on the head for a super niche game like this. There are areas that can be improved but I doubt that he went into this project thinking that it would be the next Fortnite Lol.

 

This has been a commonly repeated word this year, it seems. Only one man doing the work on a game a large fanbase from different eras that have different ideas on how it should be played. The only way to please everyone is to add multiple setting options, which I imagine would inhibit game mechanic progress going forward. It's a tricky one for sure and I know it's so early to say but I'm really interested to see how these new replaced systems will evolve going forward and by the time we get to the next TEW release, there will be a fresh UI already built to go to work on new features for.

[Lucas]

You guys are nuts if you expect him to hit the nail on the head for a super niche game like this. There are areas that can be improved but I doubt that he went into this project thinking that it would be the next Fortnite Lol.

 

Since when is Fortnite a simulator? "lol"

[FlightlessGypsy]

The game is going to cost me roughly $55AUD to buy. In the game's current state I can no way justify a purchase - this is a loss of a sale that would've been there day 1 had the game been up to snuff. For comparison's sake, Football Manager 2020, another largely text based game (yes from a bigger developer, I know), I paid $60AUD - I can justify that because the game is polished (if not without its own flaws as well).

 

TEW2016 was such a solid foundation to build upon in that it didn't need to be completely reworked - it just needed some new features and expansion and tweaking of others. Instead what we have is a brand new game that without the Cornellverse looks like it very well could be from an entirely different developer.

 

Why do I now have to click extra screens and look through attributes to find out who is a good babyface or heel? Why do I have to click through to the skills page to find values in an acceptable font size? Why do I have to click a segment down when booking a card, then move down with it to click the tiny arrow again to move it down? Why can't I scroll in the majority of screens?

 

These are just a few examples of things that shouldn't have gotten through to this public demo stage.

 

There isn't really anything wrong with the skin itself, besides needing some duller lines, which Idolized has already mentioned he would work on. It is the design of the game itself which is in question.

 

None of this is supposed to be an attack on anyone - be it Adam or any of the testers - God knows I couldn't do half of what they've done - but this game is currently not worth the asking price and you're previous game which came out 4 years ago still is and I think that says something.

 

I look forward to seeing what work you can do patching out issues in the future and hope that the game will become a must buy once again.

 

The game has been delayed though. It isn't releasing in it's current state and none of us have seen the retail version running yet. This is why the delay was the best news we could've hoped for despite many unrestly souls being justifiably upset. Not only that, whatever complaints we might have after final release will then be polished up in the patches. It's not like these games get DLC to keep them relevant, they're always being tweaked and perfected. We really can't say anything now until we go gold.

[Damo]

You guys are nuts if you expect him to hit the nail on the head for a super niche game like this. There are areas that can be improved but I doubt that he went into this project thinking that it would be the next Fortnite Lol.

 

The game costs $10 more than Kenshi and Factorio which are also personal projects spun into big games. Having a niche game is not an excuse for poor design.

 

Could you imagine believing in a store client monopoly so much that you use a games' choice to release independently as a negative point?

 

I believe in games making as much money as possible to reward the developers financially, promote the franchise/brand to new audiences, and providing funds for a better development cycle the next time around. To do this you need the widest audience possible. The politics of the situation aren't really a concern.

 

The game is going to cost me roughly $55AUD to buy. In the game's current state I can no way justify a purchase - this is a loss of a sale that would've been there day 1 had the game been up to snuff. For comparison's sake, Football Manager 2020, another largely text based game (yes from a bigger developer, I know), I paid $60AUD - I can justify that because the game is polished (if not without its own flaws as well).

 

It's worth pointing out the that Football Manager series didn't start as a huge game and was initially a two man team working out of their bedrooms. This is how games grow - they consistently provide better and more modern experiences which leads to greater revenue. The CM UI was built using the old school Windows API but they evolved it over time. Technologically, TEW2020 isn't *that* different from EWR.

[Genadi]

There have been personal attacks on the artists, testers and Adam. Most have been deleted, but there was plenty of toxicity that wasn’t valid criticism.

 

Clearly unacceptable, no one with a sound mind would disagree. It's going both ways though as I pointed out. The post above yours calls people nuts. I've also seen several moderators and members of the TEW dev team make comments like "People who hate the UI are a vocal minority and all happen to be new members".... This isn't healthy moderation or development. It's combative, dismissive and counterproductive.

 

In my experience the best way to counter combativeness isn't with more combativeness. This is such a crucial time in TEW's development cycle. Feelings and emotions are all distractions, I understand why they're a part of this but if everyone could take a step back for a moment and put things into perspective while trying to understand their opponents PoV maybe we'd have a better discourse all around.

[daveportivo]

I liked almost every new gameplay feature and mechanic and am glad that you can truly play TEW 20 as both a sandbox game or, in my preferred style, a difficult but realistic simulator of running a wrestling company where what or who you advertise matters.

 

While some of the changes to the layout I understand and think are needed (although could be better handled with pop ups when you float over a worker or right clicks or many other of the techniques that dense simulator games have employed since the 90s), I really think the UI is awful.

 

The opposite of intuitive and while I think the new mechanics and depth are worthy of the price tag, the presentation is actively detrimental and suffers from problems manager games (even bad ones) resolved two or three decades ago.

 

I hope these issues can be resolved because I was enjoying the prospect of a game that merged the gameplay drive of EWR/EWD with the depth of simulation of TEW 16. In this respect, TEW 20 should be ideal for me, but I find myself with no motivation to play it in it's current form, which is a shame as their are many new features I'm still excited to explore in theory, but get instantly turned off by in practice.

[ZMAN]

Since when is Fortnite a simulator? "lol"

 

It’s not a simulator but you people are talking about taking this wrasslin simulator game to Steam. Steam users aren’t gonna get this stuff lol they’ll tear it to pieces even if you add all these customization features. There’s just too much detail demanded by the niche audience

[Xendarii]

You guys are nuts if you expect him to hit the nail on the head for a super niche game like this. There are areas that can be improved but I doubt that he went into this project thinking that it would be the next Fortnite Lol. Steam, really? Those people aren’t gonna jump into a wrasslin simulator with the detail that we demand.

 

Adam's not releasing it for a niche price though. Which is fine if the game lives up to that price. Mechanically it probably does that this year as much as it did 2016. Concerning UI and UX, which is an extremely important part of the game, it doesn't at all. Not in the slightest.

 

Also, there's tons of "niche" games on Steam. Literally thousands.

 

Also, FM has even more detail than TEW and is a bestseller on Steam. The gaming community doesn't work like you think it does.

[Damo]

It’s not a simulator but you people are talking about taking this wrasslin simulator game to Steam. Steam users aren’t gonna get this stuff lol they’ll tear it to pieces even if you add all these customization features. There’s just too much detail demanded by the niche audience

 

That's just not the reality of the situation. Here is an incredibly niche game built by one person that is a database front end that is priced competitively, has great reviews and is evolving all the time.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1184770/The_Political_Process/

[RazorsEdge]

The game has been delayed though. It isn't releasing in it's current state and none of us have seen the retail version running yet. This is why the delay was the best news we could've hoped for despite many unrestly souls being justifiably upset. Not only that, whatever complaints we might have after final release will then be polished up in the patches. It's not like these games get DLC to keep them relevant, they're always being tweaked and perfected. We really can't say anything now until we go gold.

 

I agree with you completely that the delay is the best possible thing right now, I'm just stating that if it isn't improved drastically then I don't see myself buying it, unfortunately