Transparency

[Genadi]

Over the past few weeks I've noticed several people on the TEW development team posting and debating certain things on the board. I think giving them a dev tag will help with the transparency and provide more clarity when some debates occur. Every other game I play has this system for their forums. People who are personally invested in the game and have helped create it are arguing on the forums with some members who have no idea who they're debating and this is wrong for a few reasons. I've also noticed certain devs trying to combat critical posts with "Oh but this new feature is great". Not only is "What aboutism" an awful form of discussion but coupled with the lack of transparency it all comes off looking very bad for GDS and TEW.

 

Given all that's unfolded over the past month I don't think asking for a little more transparency is unreasonable. I in no way intend for this to be an argumentative thread but I know some will try to steer it there in an attempt to derail the main point. I won't be replying to any one baiting

[rwalsh93]

I agree, it provides a perspective on where an opinion/fact/view point is developed from and helps inform the reader.

[Lucas]

It's a good idea and works well elsewhere imo.

[Donners]

<p>Elsewhere that generally applies to paid members of the team, in my experience. Unpaid testers are usually anonymous - indeed, NDAs typically require anonymity. </p><p> </p><p>

I alpha and beta tested Football Manager for a decade, but was not allowed to state that on the forums even after testing finished each year.</p><p> </p><p>

As far as I know, there are only two paid members of the dev team here - Adam and the artist.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Donners" data-cite="Donners" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Elsewhere that generally applies to paid members of the team, in my experience. Unpaid testers are usually anonymous - indeed, NDAs typically require anonymity. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> FM dev is very different to TEW dev as is the structure. Bad comparison. FM provides transparency in many other ways that TEW does not but I won't go further with this analogy as the comparison isn't a good one.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Donners" data-cite="Donners" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I alpha and beta tested Football Manager for a decade, but was not allowed to state that on the forums even after testing finished each year.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The alpha and beta testers for TEW are us, that's what we've been doing the past few weeks. I know for a fact many on the dev team influence development with ideas etc. Those are the ones I think need a tag on their avatars making that clear, as every other game I play does.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Donners" data-cite="Donners" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>As far as I know, there are only two paid members of the dev team here - Adam and the artist. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Paid or not. If you've been involved with development and have a personal investment in the game and thus are sometimes opposed criticism as a result it should be transparent. It's misleading and they're misrepresenting themselves as just normal paying customers when they're not.</p>

[UEWpro]

I would support this as well. That would make it easier to get help besides running to Adam about everything.

[Powerful_Fox]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Donners" data-cite="Donners" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Elsewhere that generally applies to paid members of the team, in my experience. Unpaid testers are usually anonymous - indeed, NDAs typically require anonymity. <p> </p><p> I alpha and beta tested Football Manager for a decade, but was not allowed to state that on the forums even after testing finished each year.</p><p> </p><p> As far as I know, there are only two paid members of the dev team here - Adam and the artist.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is a very fair post imo. Also, we arent the alpha testers, we are the beta testers, the alpha testers were the chaps behind closed doors were they not?</p><p> An NDA for these testers to sign before a commercial release of a product isnt at all farfetched either so calling it a bad comparison may not be the case.</p><p> </p><p> At this point I dont see what benefit it gives for the dev team to come out and reveal themselves, it would likely cause nothing more than them getting a headache from people as most messages they receive will be "How did you miss x and y", it serves no real benefit at this point.</p><p> </p><p> At the end of the day people make up their own minds and very much have done already since beta release, if there are people on the dev team doing what you claim (the "whataboutisms"), I genuinely cant see it holding much influence.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Powerful_Fox" data-cite="Powerful_Fox" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is a very fair post imo. Also, we arent the alpha testers, we are the beta testers, the alpha testers were the chaps behind closed doors were they not?<p> An NDA for these testers to sign before a commercial release of a product isnt at all farfetched either so calling it a bad comparison may not be the case.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> I'm not sure why NDA's have anything to do with it. Every other company I know have NDA's in place while also having dev tags for forums etc. I shouldn't have grouped alpha and beta together that was my mistake. I'm interested in knowing when reading replies and posts that it's someone on the development team speaking. Whether that post is from an informed person with insight only they could possess. Every other gaming forum uses this system and they all have NDA's etc. Again though the FM development process is extremely different which is why I said it's a bad comparison.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Powerful_Fox" data-cite="Powerful_Fox" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49044" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>At this point I dont see what benefit it gives for the dev team to come out and reveal themselves, it would likely cause nothing more than them getting a headache from people as most messages they receive will be "How did you miss x and y", it serves no real benefit at this point.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The benefit would be clarity and transparency, I don't see how anyone could consider either of those things a negative. Especially at a time like this. In regards to people revealing themselves, most of the dev team we already know it's not like a hooded wrestling reveal angle <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> I' don't think risking giving a dev member a headache because of too many questions is a valid reason against the idea. If you don't think it's healthy (and a benefit) for the game to ask those involved with the process critical questions about its development I'm not sure we'll agree on much more in regards to this matter.</p>

[forlan]

I feel it could create unconscious bias and don't really see any need for it tbh I agree with powerful_fox

[Powerful_Fox]

It's not so much people being critical but there is an entire reaction thread, an entire suggestions section and an entire tech support section to handle those queries. The latter is monitored by the lead developer himself.

 

I take your point with transparency but the rest of the dev team being testers frankly would be unlikely to enlighten us with too much information in the development process. If people asked them questions it would likely just be passed to adam anyway, their response would surely be "I just tested it, I will chase up with adam" etc.

 

Unless I'm absolutely out of the loop with the development (maybe you could clarify), but I thought it was simply Adam is the developer, they have a UI guy and then a team of testers Adam picked from the forums. Again, I dont see what the testers could offer to shed light into the dev process if that's the case.

[Genadi]

It's not so much people being critical but there is an entire reaction thread, an entire suggestions section and an entire tech support section to handle those queries. The latter is monitored by the lead developer himself.

 

I take your point with transparency but the rest of the dev team being testers frankly would be unlikely to enlighten us with too much information in the development process. If people asked them questions it would likely just be passed to adam anyway, their response would surely be "I just tested it, I will chase up with adam" etc.

 

Unless I'm absolutely out of the loop with the development (maybe you could clarify), but I thought it was simply Adam is the developer, they have a UI guy and then a team of testers Adam picked from the forums. Again, I dont see what the testers could offer to shed light into the dev process if that's the case.

 

I don't want testers to carry a tag, no other game does that. Just developers as I said who are involved with the process. Otherwise it would make no sense and serve no purpose. It would be a silly request.

 

The dev team have been "enlightening" us with lots of information, it's just not been clear that it's them as they don't carry tags. Some have even said in recent posts "As someone on the dev team..." and then proceeded to explain certain features often along with reasons for their addition or in some cases removal. Again, it's not some big mystery that will be like an unhooding angle if dev tags were added

[forlan]

When I was an editor tester on tew 2005 I had to sign an nda about the processes and work etc that lasts for 18 months so people would not be able to talk about it so no point having them tagged for me

[djthefunkchris]

I don't know Genadi, I kind of see both points here. If I'm bringing up a point about the game I feel is flawed, knowing I'm debating a member of the dev team instead of a normal player such as myself, would clarity a little bit why it went so wrong, this knucklehead debating me is the reason... JUST KIDDING, I'm using an exaggerated example, but I get it. On the other hand, I have real concern that some of the more "passionate" fans of TEW might have "words of wisdom" for the testers. This would just create more chaos, and although I am not against a little chaos, as I think it was needed to make some points be taken more serious, I don't think we need it to get out of control, and it could.

 

 

Overall I understand, and I'm not baiting you or anything, I truly see your point, and I believe under more calm circumstances I would be 100% behind you. I just feel that it could cause unnecessary chaos that could possibly hurt what you are asking for, which is true transparency for the sake of honesty. I don't know if that is possible just yet (without heavy drama).

[Genadi]

I don't know Genadi, I kind of see both points here. If I'm bringing up a point about the game I feel is flawed, knowing I'm debating a member of the dev team instead of a normal player such as myself, would clarity a little bit why it went so wrong, this knucklehead debating me is the reason... JUST KIDDING, I'm using an exaggerated example, but I get it. On the other hand, I have real concern that some of the more "passionate" fans of TEW might have "words of wisdom" for the testers. This would just create more chaos, and although I am not against a little chaos, as I think it was needed to make some points be taken more serious, I don't think we need it to get out of control, and it could.

 

 

Overall I understand, and I'm not baiting you or anything, I truly see your point, and I believe under more calm circumstances I would be 100% behind you. I just feel that it could cause unnecessary chaos that could possibly hurt what you are asking for, which is true transparency for the sake of honesty. I don't know if that is possible just yet (without heavy drama).

 

I appreciate you understanding my perspective as you clearly have Also just to clarify, the knucklehead for me aren't the devs! Even if we completely disagree if they explain their reasoning I respect that and appreciate the clarity. It was more the random poster speaking like they're on the dev team and answering questions etc as if they are. That's the situation where I'd like to know if the person is a dev member or not. I in no way meant this as some kind of attack on the devs, maybe that's why I couldn't understand the earlier take.

 

Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, I legitimately only think it can bring positives but I do take your point. Emotions have been high here recently and it's maybe not the best time to ask for it now. Might bank this away and suggest it 6-12 months from now.

[Togg]

When I was an editor tester on tew 2005 I had to sign an nda about the processes and work etc that lasts for 18 months so people would not be able to talk about it so no point having them tagged for me

 

Reading your posts... my internal voice is suddenly Geordie .

 

I see no issue with people have "Dev" tag's to their names. People are already now named in the credits for the game. The premise of an NDA is to legally protect the "Inner workings" so secrets are not made public.

 

Nothing wrong with a little more transparency, When everyone knows where each other stands, it creates less issues and suspicion. Its not something i have had issues with myself, but you don't have to be directly affected by something to want to fight for it .

[forlan]

On the other hand, I have real concern that some of the more "passionate" fans of TEW might have "words of wisdom" for the testers. This would just create more chaos, and although I am not against a little chaos, as I think it was needed to make some points be taken more serious, I don't think we need it to get out of control, and it could.

 

I think the way the forum has gone recently a lot of people seem to feel like they would be better at it than the testers or have an attitude that way so it would encourage more of some of the lesser needed or wanted posts that have been cropping up more recently from certain more opinionated individuals

[tormyb]

Emotions have been high here recently and it's maybe not the best time to ask for it now. Might bank this away and suggest it 6-12 months from now.

 

Completely agree. It's a really interesting/solid suggestion, but maybe not one for right now.

 

I could easily see testers being overwhelmed with messages - not just by passionate existing members, but also new signups who could easily (and perhaps misguidedly) identify the testers as targets for bombardment.

 

There's been lots of fantastic debate and some great suggestions on the forums, since the beta/demo was released. However, the tone of this has occasionally (just a minority) dipped to the extent that I wouldn't want to be the one receiving messages about it - especially if there is nothing that I can do. Then again, I can't speak for the testers.

 

I do think that it is a solid overall suggestion though. Putting it on ice for a couple of months might make those with the power to implement it more receptive too.

[djthefunkchris]

I appreciate you understanding my perspective as you clearly have Also just to clarify, the knucklehead for me aren't the devs! Even if we completely disagree if they explain their reasoning I respect that and appreciate the clarity. It was more the random poster speaking like they're on the dev team and answering questions etc as if they are. That's the situation where I'd like to know if the person is a dev member or not. I in no way meant this as some kind of attack on the devs, maybe that's why I couldn't understand the earlier take.

 

Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, I legitimately only think it can bring positives but I do take your point. Emotions have been high here recently and it's maybe not the best time to ask for it now. Might bank this away and suggest it 6-12 months from now.

 

/nod. Just by some of the reactions to it, some are totally cool and I believe optimistic like you. I agree, some people are talking as if they know something more than they do... but yeah, right now there are grown men having temper tantrums, and no use giving them someone to take it out on.

[Genadi]

Completely agree. It's a really interesting/solid suggestion, but maybe not one for right now.

 

I could easily see testers being overwhelmed with messages - not just by passionate existing members, but also new signups who could easily (and perhaps misguidedly) identify the testers as targets for bombardment.

 

There's been lots of fantastic debate and some great suggestions on the forums, since the beta/demo was released. However, the tone of this has occasionally (just a minority) dipped to the extent that I wouldn't want to be the one receiving messages about it - especially if there is nothing that I can do. Then again, I can't speak for the testers.

 

I do think that it is a solid overall suggestion though. Putting it on ice for a couple of months might make those with the power to implement it more receptive too.

 

Yeah I've been told about some of the week one of demo behaviour and I honestly forgot. I wasn't around much for it and was more focussed on modding aspects.

 

I was most definitely looking at more from a clarity pov not "lets put these people in the spotlight for more abuse".

[Genadi]

/nod. Just by some of the reactions to it, some are totally cool and I believe optimistic like you. I agree, some people are talking as if they know something more than they do... but yeah, right now there are grown men having temper tantrums, and no use giving them someone to take it out on.

 

This is why we can't have nice things

[Derek B]

I'm just gonna lock this thread. While I am always personally happy to talk about a lot of things as a prominent face here, the combination of Non Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) and the reactions of some members of the community in general have shown it's generally better for people to not publically acknowledge being a part of the dev team. I'm sure anyone who has seen the reactions of some people within the community understand.