Please change up lenghts of matches in Attitude Entertainment for Events

[Kalmus]

Now while I can understand the lenghts of matches for the Shows themselves to be max 15 minutes or they begin to lose the crowd.

 

I do not understand that same thing going for Events. Just look at the actual Attitude Entertainment of the 90s. Some of the best matches of that era would go for 22 - 30+ minutes

 

Mankind vs Undertaker (Hell in a Cell) 23 minutes (5 minutes of entrances etc to add on top of that)

 

Austin vs HBK (WM) 22 minutes (6 minutes of entrances etc to add on top of that)

 

Austin vs Rock (WM XVII) 37 minutes (7 minutes of entrances)

 

Triple H vs The Rock (Summerslam 1998) 27 Minutes (8 minutes of entrances and other stuff)

 

And so on...and on and on.

 

So why on TEW20 are Matches on Events limited to 15 maybe 20 mins at best if you don't want to get a debuff???

 

I really think this needs to be changed as its annoying as all hell.

[alightfantastic]

I agree to this.

[The Nickman]

Would any of those matches be under Attitude Entertainment or would they be Classic Sports Entertainment?

 

Classic Sports Entertainment is the one I use for booking WWF and it works just fine. You can still get away with short (sub-10 minute) matches for TV, but you can also throw in the 16+ minute match for the Main Event and your PPVs to hit the high ratings.

 

Might just be the naming convention of the products that’s throwing you here.

[Kalmus]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Nickman" data-cite="The Nickman" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50247" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Would any of those matches be under Attitude Entertainment or would they be Classic Sports Entertainment?<p> </p><p> Classic Sports Entertainment is the one I use for booking WWF and it works just fine. You can still get away with short (sub-10 minute) matches for TV, but you can also throw in the 16+ minute match for the Main Event and your PPVs to hit the high ratings.</p><p> </p><p> Might just be the naming convention of the products that’s throwing you here.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> With classic you get penelized for eye candy or hardcore matches which you dont get penalized for in Attitude Entertainment. And with Classic you can go above 20 minutes yes. But all those matches I mentioned were at the hight of Attitude Era which would be Attitude Entertainment. In fact I posted even more in discord last night.</p><p> </p><p> Yesturday I hit one of my events to finally fully test it. And max a match was able to go before it got penalized(debuff) was 13 minutes. (3 minutes are added for entrances and non wrestling stuff). While I can get behind that for TV Shows. I can not get behind that for Events. Someone suggested a workaround for it to make another brand that i use for my events to be able to extend the match lenghts...but I really dont think thats how it should be done. And that Attitude Entertainment just needs a little bit of adjusting</p>

[The Nickman]

With classic you get penelized for eye candy or hardcore matches which you dont get penalized for in Attitude Entertainment. And with Classic you can go above 20 minutes yes. But all those matches I mentioned were at the hight of Attitude Era which would be Attitude Entertainment. In fact I posted even more in discord last night.

 

Yesturday I hit one of my events to finally fully test it. And max a match was able to go before it got penalized(debuff) was 13 minutes. (3 minutes are added for entrances and non wrestling stuff). While I can get behind that for TV Shows. I can not get behind that for Events. Someone suggested a workaround for it to make another brand that i use for my events to be able to extend the match lenghts...but I really dont think thats how it should be done. And that Attitude Entertainment just needs a little bit of adjusting

Yeah I guess, but what's the penalty like for hardcore and eye candy anyway? Because those matches were never the best matches back in the days of WWF anyway.

 

Like I said, I find Classic Sports Entertainment perfect to book my WWF and I don't find it restrictive at all. A little penalty here or there for a shorter match or a hardcore or "bra and panties" really doesn't do much to ding the whole card and I still consistently churn out Raws in the high 80s, low 90s.

 

But each to their own. I can see why you'd like longer matches for main events or PPVs.

[TOTKingNothing]

Yeah I guess, but what's the penalty like for hardcore and eye candy anyway? Because those matches were never the best matches back in the days of WWF anyway.

 

Like I said, I find Classic Sports Entertainment perfect to book my WWF and I don't find it restrictive at all. A little penalty here or there for a shorter match or a hardcore or "bra and panties" really doesn't do much to ding the whole card and I still consistently churn out Raws in the high 80s, low 90s.

 

But each to their own. I can see why you'd like longer matches for main events or PPVs.

 

So you're saying that the Attitude Entertainment product doesn't fit the company that coined the term Attitude Era?

[d12345]

To be fair Eye Candy and Hardcore matches should be penalized in late 90s WWF.

 

Those matches would NEVER get a 5* rating or anywhere close.

 

Look at it like this, if you main evented a PPV with those match types would it have gotten a great rating?...

[Teh_Showtime]

Those matches would never get 5* regardless because they have inherent caps even without the product modifier.

 

Eye candy is especially tricky because unless I’m mistaken the ratio for attractive women has been removed completely from the game, essentially forcing you to use bad women’s matches in its place for the sake of “the product”

[d12345]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50247" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Those matches would never get 5* regardless because they have inherent caps even without the product modifier. <p> </p><p> Eye candy is especially tricky because unless I’m mistaken the ratio for attractive women has been removed completely from the game, essentially forcing you to use bad women’s matches in its place for the sake of “the product”</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't think Hardcore matches in Hardcore promotions and Eye Candy matches in raunchy promotions have such caps?</p>

[Grand Avatar]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="d12345" data-cite="d12345" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50247" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>To be fair Eye Candy and Hardcore matches should be penalized in late 90s WWF.<p> </p><p> Those matches would <strong>NEVER </strong>get a 5* rating or anywhere close.</p><p> </p><p> Look at it like this, if you main evented a PPV with those match types would it have gotten a great rating?...</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah sure, but they still got nice responses from the crowd during the Attitude Era, especially Eye Candy matches. Also keep in mind WWE didn't exactly have the best women's division back then, the only workers were Ivory, Jacqueline and I guess you could throw in Lita although she was basically a Hardy Boyz lacky at that point, and Trish eventually became a pretty good worker. As far as the Hardcore matches went, those were pretty much just a gimmick to do little funny spots with the title, but Raven and Rhyno put on a great hardcore match at Backlash so once again it had more to do with the workers and the way things were booked. </p><p> </p><p> Maybe Hardcore and Eye Candy matches should have a cap on rating, but for them to be penalized makes no sense when they were a staple of the Attitude Era product. </p><p> </p><p> Also agree about the match length issue, long matches weren't punished during the Attitude Era--workrate was still important, so if anything that product should have Popularity > In-Ring, but it should also have the "fans will expect important matches to be quite lengthy" thing going on instead of just putting a blanket cap on long matches. I feel that's more accurate to how fans actually perceived the In-Ring action during the Attitude Era. Sure, it was all about the big stars and entertainment, but they loved seeing Ausin, Rock, Mankind, Taker etc. take it to broadway.</p>

[The Nickman]

Yeah sure, but they still got nice responses from the crowd during the Attitude Era, especially Eye Candy matches. Also keep in mind WWE didn't exactly have the best women's division back then, the only workers were Ivory, Jacqueline and I guess you could throw in Lita although she was basically a Hardy Boyz lacky at that point, and Trish eventually became a pretty good worker. As far as the Hardcore matches went, those were pretty much just a gimmick to do little funny spots with the title, but Raven and Rhyno put on a great hardcore match at Backlash so once again it had more to do with the workers and the way things were booked.

 

Maybe Hardcore and Eye Candy matches should have a cap on rating, but for them to be penalized makes no sense when they were a staple of the Attitude Era product.

 

Also agree about the match length issue, long matches weren't punished during the Attitude Era--workrate was still important, so if anything that product should have Popularity > In-Ring, but it should also have the "fans will expect important matches to be quite lengthy" thing going on instead of just putting a blanket cap on long matches. I feel that's more accurate to how fans actually perceived the In-Ring action during the Attitude Era. Sure, it was all about the big stars and entertainment, they loved seeing Ausin, Rock, Mankind, Taker etc. take it to broadway.

Again, what’s the penalty like? Is it really that bad or is it just a minor ding that stops the matches from hitting the top echelon of matches?

 

Because if that’s the latter, it’s entirely accurate, in late 90s WWF, the Hardcore and Eye Candy matches were NEVER the best matches on the card.

 

Classic Sports Entertainment is perfect for late 90s WWF.

[Teh_Showtime]

I don't think Hardcore matches in Hardcore promotions and Eye Candy matches in raunchy promotions have such caps?

 

They are automatically capped by how long they can go, no? I don’t mean “world class scores” penalty I mean those match aims can’t go long without being penalized.

 

I haven’t specifically used it but the eye candy aim is specifically to calm the crowd down. The other aims are more generous, but it’s not exactly the same thing as using the regular aim. Now I’m not saying they should be able to go long, but even in the ideal product those matches will struggle to get that rating.

[d12345]

Yeah sure, but they still got nice responses from the crowd during the Attitude Era, especially Eye Candy matches. Also keep in mind WWE didn't exactly have the best women's division back then, the only workers were Ivory, Jacqueline and I guess you could throw in Lita although she was basically a Hardy Boyz lacky at that point, and Trish eventually became a pretty good worker. As far as the Hardcore matches went, those were pretty much just a gimmick to do little funny spots with the title, but Raven and Rhyno put on a great hardcore match at Backlash so once again it had more to do with the workers and the way things were booked.

 

Maybe Hardcore and Eye Candy matches should have a cap on rating, but for them to be penalized makes no sense when they were a staple of the Attitude Era product.

 

I think the thing that's being missed is that matches receiving a penalty doesn't mean they can't be good with great workers.

 

The very fact that Hardcore matches and eye candy matches were seen as gimmick types used simply to manage the live crowd proves that.

 

Gimmick match penalty is like getting a penalty for a gimmick. Doesn't mean you can't be great with a gimmick the crowd doesn't take seriously, but it certainly hurts.

[The Nickman]

I honestly think the confusing thing here is that people see “Attitude Entertainment” and think that’s what late 90s WWF should be, when in reality, they’re really a LOT closer to “Classic Sports Entertainment”.

[Teh_Showtime]

I honestly think the confusing thing here is that people see “Attitude Entertainment” and think that’s what late 90s WWF should be, when in reality, they’re really a LOT closer to “Classic Sports a Entertainment”.

 

From the confines of the game there’d be little to no difference booking that period as either, but in reality it’s not even close to the same.

 

Major stars wrestling other stars happened quite frequently in AE due to ratings wars, but there’s nothing that says the product is about short term reward and payoff as opposed to classic. There’s no penalty for having gimmicky workers in an edgy product which breaks kayfabe constantly. The core is of course classic SE because at the end of the day it’s Vince, but what you’re suggesting would not make sense in any other promotion.

 

Why doesn’t AJPW just use “Respectful Wrestling” instead of the product crafted after their famous style? Functionally they are no different.

[rickson]

I don't think that the product "Classic Sports Entertainment" fits the attitude era. It is even impossible to book asimple ladder match because it is much to risky for the audience and gets heavily penalized.

Things like Foley falling from HiaC would probably be impossible in-game.

 

I generally like the idea of choosing a product for your company but it is not executed well yet. There are to many limitations that force you to a certain kind of booking. Hard limits like 15 minutes match length are quite annoying.

 

I think for many people the TEW series is about Fantasy Booking with a little bit of challenge and randomness and not about playing perfect in the sense of what the game wants you to do. Therefore I think there are way to many restrictions in products since we are not able to create our own product.

 

I mean: There is an in-game-editor that I could use to make my workers perfect in every skill that exists (if anyone really wants to do it) but there is no option to book the product you desire to create?

[Gungner]

I don't think that the product "Classic Sports Entertainment" fits the attitude era. It is even impossible to book asimple ladder match because it is much to risky for the audience and gets heavily penalized.

Things like Foley falling from HiaC would probably be impossible in-game.

 

I generally like the idea of choosing a product for your company but it is not executed well yet. There are to many limitations that force you to a certain kind of booking. Hard limits like 15 minutes match length are quite annoying.

 

I think for many people the TEW series is about Fantasy Booking with a little bit of challenge and randomness and not about playing perfect in the sense of what the game wants you to do. Therefore I think there are way to many restrictions in products since we are not able to create our own product.

 

I mean: There is an in-game-editor that I could use to make my workers perfect in every skill that exists (if anyone really wants to do it) but there is no option to book the product you desire to create?

 

I'm totally behind you. A 15 minute max match is just plain dumb. And a Ladder match shouldn't be penalized for being too risky. Look at Jericho vs HBK in 2008. HBK's eye was f*cked up, but the match was Match of the Year.

 

I'm still on TEW'16, and plan on staying here for quite some time, so I don't really know how annoying it is, but I assume I would go straight back to 2016.

 

Can you change the products in the editor?

[Donners]

 

Can you change the products in the editor?

 

No, which is the main gripe people have about the system.

[Gungner]

No, which is the main gripe people have about the system.

 

In that case, I'm even more behind the suggestion now.

[Acey]

I agree with the suggestion - my though is you could have a system for main events at PPVs where you are essentially allowed to increase above the 15 minute mark to different degrees depending on the heat of the associated storylines.

 

That would make sense for a storyline-driven product as people care exponentially more about a main event between two guys who have a feud rated in the 90s, than two people who haven't been feuding, or whose feud hasn't been particularly hot, and as such, would be willing to watch them wrestling for much longer in the former.

 

You could have a calculation that pits feud rating against company popularity - the simplest example would be:

 

Feud rating - company size [in region event is taking place in] = extra minutes allowed.

 

So for example, if you had an 80 pop company in the region the event is taking place in, and you had a 90-rated feud, you could go 90-80 = 10 minutes over the 15 minute cap. (So, 25 minutes).

 

This would only apply to events, or alternatively the extra minutes could be halved for TV shows (so in the above example, a 20 minute main event on TV).

 

Of course, there are probably better algorithms to calculate extra minutes allowed, but the overall point still stands.

[ngz999]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="d12345" data-cite="d12345" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50247" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>To be fair Eye Candy and Hardcore matches should be penalized in late 90s WWF.<p> </p><p> Those matches would <strong>NEVER </strong>get a 5* rating or anywhere close.</p><p> </p><p> Look at it like this, if you main evented a PPV with those match types would it have gotten a great rating?...</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> ...you think Austin vs Hart at WM13 wasn't a hardcore match? It was weapons heavy and one of the best matches in company history.</p><p> </p><p> Eye candy matches never approached five stars but that's not because they weren't accepted by the fans, it's because they weren't good eye candy matches. There shouldn't be any penalty to them in Attitude Entertainment.</p>

[thadian]

Would any of those matches be under Attitude Entertainment or would they be Classic Sports Entertainment?

 

Classic Sports Entertainment is the one I use for booking WWF and it works just fine. You can still get away with short (sub-10 minute) matches for TV, but you can also throw in the 16+ minute match for the Main Event and your PPVs to hit the high ratings.

 

Might just be the naming convention of the products that’s throwing you here.

 

Classic Sports Entertainment would:

1. Penalize the hardcore/cage/ladder stuff.

 

2. Would not permit shorter matches to get top scores.

 

3. Would not allow risky angles or sex appeal angles.

 

4. No dangerous match set ups.

 

So, how are these hallmarks of Mid-Late 90s WWF or WCW represented in any way by this? I don't see it.

[thadian]

...you think Austin vs Hart at WM13 wasn't a hardcore match? It was weapons heavy and one of the best matches in company history.

 

Eye candy matches never approached five stars but that's not because they weren't accepted by the fans, it's because they weren't good eye candy matches. There shouldn't be any penalty to them in Attitude Entertainment.

 

They wouldn't? Really? Can you tell me all about how The Hardyz and Dudley Boys didn't get over? What about Undertaker? Kane? Mankind? Shane McMahon? None of these guys were hardcore? None of them got over with their crazy hardcore stunts? Wow. I really don't remember it that way. My memory is that many of the angles and crazy stuff they did was well received.

 

What about "The Three Faces of Foley" - lots of comedy, LOTS of hardcore, and people loved it. Especially his feuds with The Rock, DX, and Stone Cold - so, now their matches weren't good and the fans rejected them for being too dangerous or hardcore? In which alternative timeline? I would also like to know more about how in WCW for the same measure, Harlem Heat didn't get over? Scott Steiner? NWO? You know, all that violence and weapons stuff that people turned away from?

[thadian]

In that case, I'm even more behind the suggestion now.

 

Really, giving us the ability to set our own products is the only way to liberty. I can understand the logic - after all, the attributes and stuff are balanced around the currently existing products. But really - I say let people make their own.

 

Maybe you could pick a list of 10 options, each with a "Yes" and "No" on things from comedy, sex appeal, and hardcore, to clean finishes only, angle-match ratio, and perf-pop ratio. So you pick your options and move them around until you get the tailor-made product "for you". Some things might not be customizable such as your restricted TV Time or Friendly/Unfriendly to Sponsors - which would instead be determined by the choices made.

[adi95]

What about Episodic Entertainment product?