Better offer from elsewhere

[TheChef]

Patch 1.18, but an ongoing issue

 

What exactly constitutes a better offer from another company? Every time I go up against an AI company, I more than match their offer, yet the worker almost always says they have a better offer.

 

Most recent example: Bulldozer Brandon Smith's contract with USPW came up. I, as TCW, made an offer. They upped theirs and so on. USPW's final offer was $62,000 per month, 20% per event, 35% merch, no travel cover and about $45,000 signing on over 4 years. My offer: same conditions plus travel cover, but bigger signing fee and $80,000 per month. Nope. Then $100,000 per month. Nope. 120? Nope. 140? Only now, more than twice their offer will he now consider it. Wait a few days, he re-signs with USPW. I reload and up the offer again. He only accepts mine at $180,000 per month, almost three times the other offer.

 

My TCW is Big size, 98% prestige, 92% momentum and 80 pop across the US. I get that USPW is still a bigger company, but for Bulldozer to say he has a better offer when I'm offering more than twice and almost three times what they offer does not seem right at all.

 

It's not just Bulldozer either, this has happened time and time again. Every time I offer a contract and another company (usually USPW but not always) does too, I end up offering at least twice what the other company offered just to have the worker even consider it.

[Adam Ryland]

<p>Each offer is given a rating of how tempting it is to the worker based on the likely amount of money they'd make per month and over the course of the entire deal, and the pros and cons of the various terms and bonuses they'd receive. That's then modified by the attractiveness to them of the company making the offer, taking into account things like size, prestige, their relationships with people within that organisations, the broadcasting reach of the company, their morale there. All of that is also modified by their personal goals / stances as to whether they favour money, fame, etc.</p><p> </p><p>

If a worker had very little interest in joining a specific company then it would generally take a very large amount of money to make them change their mind.</p><p> </p><p>

Whether it's a human-generated or AI-generated offer has no bearing on anything.</p><p> </p><p>

The highest rated contract is the one they'll go for. Offers that aren't even within 90% of the highest offer wouldn't be seriously considered.</p>

[TheChef]

Each offer is given a rating of how tempting it is to the worker based on the likely amount of money they'd make per month and over the course of the entire deal, and the pros and cons of the various terms and bonuses they'd receive. That's then modified by the attractiveness to them of the company making the offer, taking into account things like size, prestige, their relationships with people within that organisations, the broadcasting reach of the company, their morale there. All of that is also modified by their personal goals / stances as to whether they favour money, fame, etc.

 

If a worker had very little interest in joining a specific company then it would generally take a very large amount of money to make them change their mind.

 

Whether it's a human-generated or AI-generated offer has no bearing on anything.

 

The highest rated contract is the one they'll go for. Offers that aren't even within 90% of the highest offer wouldn't be seriously considered.

 

Ok, thanks for clarifying that. Now I know. It still seems strange that a worker would turn down two to three times the salary over the same time frame for a company that is only slightly smaller but actually has higher prestige. I guess that broadcasting reach must be the key. I get that I may have to go higher, but offering to triple someone's wages and having it turned down feels off and unrealistic.

[DrRDuke]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that. Now I know. It still seems strange that a worker would turn down two to three times the salary over the same time frame for a company that is only slightly smaller but actually has higher prestige. I guess that broadcasting reach must be the key. I get that I may have to go higher, but offering to triple someone's wages and having it turned down feels off and unrealistic.

 

From my perspective, in a real world scenario, there might be a hot indy wrestler who has always wanted to wrestle for WWE...its his lifelong dream. He's a hot comodity and WWE offers him a contract...BUT NJPW looking to break into the US Market offers him a bonkers deal that is 4X what WWE is offering ($250,000 per year v. $1,000,000). NJPW, arguably, is a very big company, with a prestige that rivals WWE's globally (and in some circles, surpasses them)...but Indy guy has his heart set on WWE. It's been his dream since he was a kid...and wrestling, even part time, in Japan and the US, would be tough, even though he's being very well compensated for it.

 

In this scenario, I wouldn't blame the guy for taking the money...that's a life changing chunk of change...and NJPW is NJPW...but I also wouldn't begrudge the guy for passing on the big money and taking the WWE offer, which is still very lucrative, and may benefit him in other ways, both personally and professionally. I like that the game, as Adam has pointed out, incorporates many variables that, in theory, make every situation somewhat unique and challenges you to not just have a 'stock', calculated response to what is supposed to simulate human behavior...and we humans do things for all sorts of different reasons...and money is not always the determining factor.

[TheChef]

From my perspective, in a real world scenario, there might be a hot indy wrestler who has always wanted to wrestle for WWE...its his lifelong dream. He's a hot comodity and WWE offers him a contract...BUT NJPW looking to break into the US Market offers him a bonkers deal that is 4X what WWE is offering ($250,000 per year v. $1,000,000). NJPW, arguably, is a very big company, with a prestige that rivals WWE's globally (and in some circles, surpasses them)...but Indy guy has his heart set on WWE. It's been his dream since he was a kid...and wrestling, even part time, in Japan and the US, would be tough, even though he's being very well compensated for it.

 

In this scenario, I wouldn't blame the guy for taking the money...that's a life changing chunk of change...and NJPW is NJPW...but I also wouldn't begrudge the guy for passing on the big money and taking the WWE offer, which is still very lucrative, and may benefit him in other ways, both personally and professionally. I like that the game, as Adam has pointed out, incorporates many variables that, in theory, make every situation somewhat unique and challenges you to not just have a 'stock', calculated response to what is supposed to simulate human behavior...and we humans do things for all sorts of different reasons...and money is not always the determining factor.

 

 

Oh yeah, for sure. I'm like that; I would take my dream job for half the salary of another job, so in real life situations it absolutely works. But... in the context of my example, USPW has only been the top company for a few years, has a reputation as the place where old stars go to retire and a product that is somewhat sanitised. It's not like WWE, with a 50+ year history. TCW, on the other hand, has a longer history and, while in canon is currently a smaller company, is still highly prestigious and is known as a place to have great matches. I find it unlikely that Bulldozer would be so committed to USPW, a company he's only been with for 3 or 4 years, that he wouldn't even consider an offer from TCW until they offer more than twice what USPW offers.

 

In CornellVerse terms, SWF would be the one company that workers would be more drawn to out of childhood dreams and memories than USPW. Then, maybe, I could see things playing out like you describe.

[RocheBag]

Oh yeah, for sure. I'm like that; I would take my dream job for half the salary of another job, so in real life situations it absolutely works. But... in the context of my example, USPW has only been the top company for a few years, has a reputation as the place where old stars go to retire and a product that is somewhat sanitised. It's not like WWE, with a 50+ year history. TCW, on the other hand, has a longer history and, while in canon is currently a smaller company, is still highly prestigious and is known as a place to have great matches. I find it unlikely that Bulldozer would be so committed to USPW, a company he's only been with for 3 or 4 years, that he wouldn't even consider an offer from TCW until they offer more than twice what USPW offers.

 

In CornellVerse terms, SWF would be the one company that workers would be more drawn to out of childhood dreams and memories than USPW. Then, maybe, I could see things playing out like you describe.

 

I mean it's perfectly plausible he has gone to USPW and likes it and simply doesn't want to leave. There are over a thousand workers in the C-Verse and all of them will have different motivations.

[TheChef]

I mean it's perfectly plausible he has gone to USPW and likes it and simply doesn't want to leave. There are over a thousand workers in the C-Verse and all of them will have different motivations.

 

Bulldozer, sure. USPW is the land of the giants, after all and he's a big lad. But, this exact scenario has played out many times with the likes of Pablo Rodriguez, The Crippler, Ricky Storm and Casey Valentine off the top of my head and I'm only in June 2020! Three of those guys had never been in USPW before so had no connection to them and wouldn't even entertain my offer until it was twice what USPW had offered with all conditions and contract length the same. And that's just for them to even consider it; it has taken almost three times the salary to actually get them to sign.

[redhilleagle]

Each offer is given a rating of how tempting it is to the worker based on the likely amount of money they'd make per month and over the course of the entire deal, and the pros and cons of the various terms and bonuses they'd receive. That's then modified by the attractiveness to them of the company making the offer, taking into account things like size, prestige, their relationships with people within that organisations, the broadcasting reach of the company, their morale there. All of that is also modified by their personal goals / stances as to whether they favour money, fame, etc.

 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing this toned down in favour of the money a little if a majority of others were in agreement. I just made the following offer to a worker:

 

30,000 Per month.

12,000 Sign on fee

3 years.

50% of Merch. sales.

 

My rivals offered:

 

23,440 Per month.

8,000 Sign on fee

3 years.

10% of Merch. Sales.

 

And he prefers their offer. Granted, they are bigger than me, but I think in most cases I think people would take the 6 extra thousand a month, certainly my wife would be telling me to!

And the fact I'm offering that kind of money surely indicates our companies ambition to be as big as them.

[Self]

I'd only want it toned down if there was more in-game feedback on why offers were rejected, and if that feedback showed that it favoured size to an unreasonable degree. Your example looks like a silly decision by the worker, but you haven't mentioned how much bigger the rival company is, or the personallity of the worker. Lots of promotions have big ambitions, but how many acheive those ambitions? A lot of wrestlers value working in front of big crowds, to get the best exposure to be able to sign an even bigger contract after those 3 years are up. $6k would be a lot to me now, but if I'm already making $24k per month, I'm not sure I'd look for that pay rise in exchange for moving to the 'minor leagues'.

 

Although I would love it if certain personality types (Mercenary?) would purely go for the money, sometimes to their detriment. To cartoonish degrees.

[TakumiIrohamarvelous]

I think it makes sense if a wrestler is wrestling for someone higher in the rankings than you then they'd prefer their offer. It makes the game more realistic as you've to budget to spend big on and entice stars away from the top companies if you want to grow to the next level

[redhilleagle]

I'm not totally disagreeing with what's being said, I just think, in my experience, most people would go with the money if it was high enough. I know you could say "They do, your offer obviously wasn't high enough". But what do you consider high enough? There's no feedback from the worker. Perhaps he could say "If you want to entice me to your company, you'll need to pay me xxx." or "You'll need to beat the other offer by xx%"

 

It's just a little frustrating when you are trying to live within your means and trying to grow a company, but you can't because you can never (almost never) get any bigger stars to come and work for you.

[DrRDuke]

I've also seen wrestlers pulling in gigantic monthly merch numbers. If the fed he's going to is a big one, he could be making another $10,000 or more a month from t-shirt sales...not to mention commercials, maybe even a spot in a Hollywood film. When I want to, I can rationalize and accept that a guy just wants to work somewhere else. I totally get how its frustrating, but man, I personally love the fact that the game doesn't give you everything on a silver platter...some stuff just isn't going to work out and you have to pivot.

 

And then there's the prospect of a guy getting HUGE in his new home and signing a $100,000 per month deal when his contract is up. Business is business.

 

And there's also an in game editor...

[redhilleagle]

I've also seen wrestlers pulling in gigantic monthly merch numbers. If the fed he's going to is a big one, he could be making another $10,000 or more a month from t-shirt sales...not to mention commercials, maybe even a spot in a Hollywood film. When I want to, I can rationalize and accept that a guy just wants to work somewhere else. I totally get how its frustrating, but man, I personally love the fact that the game doesn't give you everything on a silver platter...some stuff just isn't going to work out and you have to pivot.

 

And there's also an in game editor...

 

What are we complaining about?

 

The most sensible post yet. I get it, a massive amount could be made on Merch at a bigger company and lure of TV / Movie roles, but maybe this should also be weighed up with a risk factor. "I may not be pushed in my new company, I may not make that Merch revenue, I may not get that Hollywood call."

 

I dunno, you have a very valid point though and I'm a bit more accepting about it. I juts don't want it to make it stop being fun for me.

 

Yes, there is the editor, but I don't wanna...........

[DrRDuke]

The most sensible post yet. I get it, a massive amount could be made on Merch at a bigger company and lure of TV / Movie roles, but maybe this should also be weighed up with a risk factor. "I may not be pushed in my new company, I may not make that Merch revenue, I may not get that Hollywood call."

 

I dunno, you have a very valid point though and I'm a bit more accepting about it. I juts don't want it to make it stop being fun for me.

 

Yes, there is the editor, but I don't wanna...........

 

Completely understand. I lost my ACE to a huge offer and it took away some of the momentum I had built up. But, as I said, I love the fact the game does that...if everything worked out just how I wanted, I might get bored with that too.

 

I've had other guys get poached by a bigger company and then literally sit on the shelf for over a year, so you have a point there. My thinking is maybe the next guy that company wants to steal from me won't go cause he sees a former Champ being wasted? Probably doesn't work that way, but I can pretend.

 

As it stands, I've got Wolf Hawkins on a 1 year deal after he was busted in a drug ring...paying him virtually nothing...he's now loyal...but when that contract is up, I have no doubt he'll be offered HUGE money now that he's not toxic anymore, and I'll have to try and sign him...he may love it in my med sized workrate fed, getting paid well and staying loyal to the guy who saved his career (me)...OR he may want to get back to the big time and cash in and make up for the 2+ years he threw away? The booker in me is ready to deal with whatever comes along...and no doubt I'll be disappointed if I can't keep him...but that's the game.

 

Good luck!

[DrRDuke]

I'm also with you on the editor. I don't like 'cheating' either...but I do think it's awesome that it's an option...and I'm sure I'll play around with it a bit more as I get more and more familiar with the game.

 

edit: I also see myself as a 'springboard' to bigger things for guys. If a guy has a good 2-3 year run with me, and then gets offered a big deal from a bigger company, I'm happy for him or her. Yeah, in some cases I'd want them to stay...but hey, they're getting paid. Now, when I'm a bigger company, and guys start defecting and taking the $$$, then it'll sting a bit more...but for now, I get it.

[redhilleagle]

All my rivals appear to be mega rich. Is it easier for AI companies to make money? And for that reason, I can't compete. Sometimes I think "OK, take him for that money, you'll go bust soon". But they won't they have $30m+ in their account.

[DrRDuke]

To follow up on this, I was just able to sign David Stone to a 4 year deal away from CWA for $70,000 per month, with 30% event bonus and $70,000 signing bonus and 50% merch sales. Was competing with 6 or 7 other companies, with CWA the one who kept re-upping their offer until I managed to find the sweet spot. Doubles my highest paid guy in salary, but just goes to show you can win bidding wars.

[redhilleagle]

Oh sure, they can be won, I just don't want to bankrupt my company due to my wage bill.

[Untouchable]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="redhilleagle" data-cite="redhilleagle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="51545" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>All my rivals appear to be mega rich. Is it easier for AI companies to make money? And for that reason, I can't compete. Sometimes I think "OK, take him for that money, you'll go bust soon". But they won't they have $30m+ in their account.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You probably have an insane economy</p>

[Self]

Not necessarily. In most of the C-Verse I play, 90% of the rival companies are making big money. Particularly American promotions. CWA got themselves in trouble in earlier patches, but now it looks like smooth sailing.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I sim 10 years and every company has atleast 10 million

[Remianen]

In my tests, I've been able to narrow down some factors and that led me to workers valuing event bonuses WAY more than they should. That was the only thing the competing offers had over my offer. Once I matched the event bonus, my offer was far and away the best and the worker didn't even consider the competing offers.

 

My contract template is always the same: 10 year length, 30% merch, and I usually double whatever the default amount is (rounding up if necessary) with a $1 million signing bonus but I don't cover travel. EVER. If it's a largely unknown worker who demands $15k a month for ironclad exclusive written, I give it to them. Part of the reason I'm making so much money every month is because almost everyone on the roster is underpaid. Heck, I signed Amber Allen in June of 2020 for $50k a month and 11 months later, her value is over $232k.

 

I should note that my situation is very unique in that the AI will almost never pay a female worker on par with a male one, due to the 'division bias' (as I call it). Even if said division is carrying the company and producing the best matches week in and week out. But that's probably why the likes of CILL, CZCW, and ACPW are putting on cards rated in the 90s and CWA struggles to hit or exceed 83.

 

Oh and maybe I shouldn't divulge this but, the 'poison pill' contract is alive and well in TEW20. You can really screw up a competitor with contract offers.

[redhilleagle]

Oh and maybe I shouldn't divulge this but, the 'poison pill' contract is alive and well in TEW20. You can really screw up a competitor with contract offers.

 

Should I or should I not ask what this is?

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="redhilleagle" data-cite="redhilleagle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="51545" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Should I or should I not ask what this is?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Poison pill contract is when you put together a contract offer specifically to screw with competitors. Add stuff like creative control, wage matching, hiring veto, massive contract length, and of course, really high monthly wages. If you time it right (i.e. right after the competing offers add those clauses), you can cancel your offer and the other company (or companies) are stuck with them. So whoever wins the "bidding war" has a worker with a WCW-esque contract on their hands. It works better when there's only one competitor (because once you cancel your offer, the worker defaults to/auto-accepts the other offer). I only figured this out when I was trying to come to grips with TEW20's contract system. I threw everything into the contract to see if anything (besides more money, which <strong><em>doesn't</em></strong> work) would make a worker favor my offer over the other company (usually CWA). Before I figured out it was the event bonus, I offered Nina Cacace and Jenny Playmate all the clauses AND more money but no event bonus. When I finally figured out what the sticking point was, I couldn't remove those clauses from the offer (the worker will complain about it). So I left them in, CWA countered, and I canceled the offer when it popped up for confirmation. Given how the AI is allowed to cheat on contract offers, I say we're even. (For example, if you offer an ironclad exclusive written to a low tier or largely unknown worker, they'll ask for a minimum of $15,000 per month. But the AI can offer those people MUCH less and it'll be accepted)</p><p> </p><p> Now I fully expect this to be changed at some point, but the same exact strategy existed in TEW16. Creative control isn't much of an issue for the AI since it's allowed to cheat and get loaned workers (who have built in creative control) to take losses to MUCH less popular workers. But wage matching? That's a killer.</p>