Render Discussion Thread

[EdJames]

21 minutes ago, The Superman 3 of People said:

Your name is in the game's credits and you were presenting yourself as just another member of the community, not as someone who had a vested interest in the community remaining uncritical of the use of AI-generated assets in the final product. At best, that's a morally dubious stance to take.

The fact that neither you nor GDS disclosed your involvement in the product while you were actively trashing the old-style renders and presenting the adoption of AI assets as a positive gives the impression that you were astroturfing the discussion ahead of the release, regardless of your intent.

Didn’t even know it was/was going to be in the credits - so that’s honestly news to me. 

I have no vested interest beyond wanting people to like and use the mod I did. The success or failure of the game literally has no bearing on me. I am not an employee, I don’t have some kind of profit share in place, I don’t have a 5-game deal at play. There is no vested interest beyond “would be cool if people were using those images I did.”

I apologise if you feel I was disingenuous. It wasn’t my place to announce my involvement (because then it revealed details of the renders), but I guess I wanted to still be part of the discussion on a game I’ve been invested in for so many years. I fully accept on reflection how that might be seen as questionable, but I stand by (the majority) of views I expressed, which were authentic. 

My view on the old renders is not that they’re trash and I don’t think it was ever the point I was trying to make, but here is my view for absolute clarity…

1. I never liked that they don’t match in both style and framing. It was immersion breaking for me and I found myself trying to play the game entirely with JSilver renders for consistency. Tens of different artists all doing things their own way led to an inconsistent experience. If one person had done all of them, or a few had agreed to a fixed style, I’d never have undertaken the project.

2. I don’t like how many are copy pastes of one another, particularly the exact same, strand for strand, fixed asset “Greg Gauge” hair. Again, it was immersion breaking for me. To suggest AI all looks the same as a reason not to use it, when this is what we’ve been playing with, didn’t make sense to me as an objection. That was the only point I was trying to make.

As I say, we are where we are, and I’m not going to keep defending something I set out to do with the sole intent of improving the communities overall game experience. How it’s been used has never been something I’ve been involved in. For example, I had no idea about the default being shrunken gifs in that black frame, and many of the pictures I provided have been used in different ways such as that very much not being my Arthur Dexter Bradley. A handful of those included aren’t even mine at all, especially the celebs. 
 

Edited July 29 by EdJames

[Astil]

6 minutes ago, KingAj said:

 

I think it all comes down to personal choice on the picture pack, whether AI or not. Like a lot of things are in life sometimes. It seems like a lot of unnecessary drama, there is more than 1 option right(?)

 

There is no option to purchase a game that does not feature  MidJourney produced AI generations no. MidJourney in a round about small way profited off TEW IX.

[EdJames]

20 minutes ago, Astil said:

I agree with the ai images being a secondary option as the ideal way to move forward. 

 

Also is GDS aware none of the images in the cverse can be copywritten due to being AI gen'd? At least in America based on Thaler v. Perlmutter. So all the images are fair for any use by a third party.

I certainly made that clear upon provision of the images, quoting that exact case law.

[Astil]

Solid.

[EdJames]

1 minute ago, Astil said:

There is no option to purchase a game that does not feature  MidJourney produced AI generations no. MidJourney in a round about small way profited off TEW IX.

If it makes you feel any better, I very much doubt they made profit given the level of usage I was hitting their servers with.

[Astil]

1 minute ago, EdJames said:

If it makes you feel any better, I very much doubt they made profit given the level of usage I was hitting their servers with.

I doubt you were a drop in the bucket, no offense. Larger and more problematic usages exist than 'render for small game'. Part of why I've tried to be careful to cast blame at MJ and not you. Only mild things I take umbrage with you about is not disclosing it was your art (youve apologized so its w/e at this point now) and if you used any pre-existing renders to make the AI renders by feeding the image to MJ. And thats not even on you, as you were doing it as a personal project. That shouldve been vetted by GDS. So basically no issues with you.

[Irish Wolf]

7 minutes ago, KingAj said:

I thought there would be a CV Blue background (old style) pack made available on release day? Would that not be a sufficient alternative?

I think it all comes down to personal choice on the picture pack, whether AI or not. Like a lot of things are in life sometimes. It seems like a lot of unnecessary drama, there is more than 1 option right(?)

I do like most of the character designs in this pack but as we saw towards the tail end of TEW2020's life(?), different AI render makes have their own style and design. So the hate on someone who has clearly stated their designs were based on their own choice and not originally intended to be the main focus pack for the new version seems very unwarranted. My personal render favorites have been Shmoe II and Walter Sobchaks, but I can live with this design also.  Its a modable game, so theirs choice of AI or non AI as was the case with 2020.

I like using AI on rare occasion because I can make renders for my own customer characters, but I love the CV Blue design, so I like both.

 

Ps; Don't come at me with hate unless you want to have a civilized conversation like an adult, as its just not worth replying.

So the issues isnt that people dont know there are options that can replace what is coming with the game. There have always been options to mod and always well be. And the issue also isnt whether or not the ai creations - lets stop calling it art - are good or not. My personal opinion is they arent but thats going to be a style thing for everyone.

 

The issues is paying for a product that uses AI creatiknd. Do I want to give my money to something I think is ethically wrong.  Now I have no issue with people using AI creations in their personal games and personsl diaries. But nobody is paying to read those, people are paying for the AI art in game and that is the only issue really.

 

And I dont think Adam, Greydog, or EdJames are doing anything intentionally malicious. And Ed is just a guy who made somethings and got asked if they could be used. But I do think that the controversy over AI creations in commercial works is a well known thing and to go about using AI creations makes Adam and Greydog a little tone deaf.

[Astil]

Wait... if the game comes with normal and alt why not include that for the old renders as well. Ship with 4 starting DBs. Then renderers still feel like they havent been replaced and people can choose without an extra step. Not ideal but better at least.

[GoldenBrady]

1 hour ago, The Superman 3 of People said:

Point of order in this discussion.

We need to stop using the word "artist" to refer to AI prompters. The amount of work they do to get an image into TEW is functionally identical to the work I do in going to the render thread and right-clicking a .jpeg. The only difference is that I don't have the carbon footprint of a Ford F-350 when I'm doing it.

I understand what you're saying and I know i'm not going to change your mind as your feelings are very strong on this subject but I would just add this point to this statement; 

"Art" is a very broad term and there are so many people out there who have brilliant, creative ideas in their mind that they struggle to find an outlet for due to access, lack of education in artistic skillsets, lack of natural talent, mental blocks, physical/mental disabilities and much more. While I understand the controversies of AI art, I do think that it opens the door to many people who have creative minds that struggle to output that.

And the progression in technology has always been with the aim of opening access to more people. In the same way that computer design programs such as Photoshop, Daz etc. provided tools that opened up avenues of creative output to those who maybe struggled to put something on paper with a pencil. I'm sure there's been many debates in the past about whether computer assisted art was "real art" or required as much effort/talent in comparison to a canvas portrait.

All this is to say, hate the technology sure, but I don't think we need to belittle people who are trying to find an outlet for their artistic mind

[HiPlus]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:58 PM, Pteroid said:

I react to AI 'art' in the same fashion I would react in the scenario that Adam announced they'd be doing TEW NFT's. This is an idiotic fad whose bubble will burst the second tech bros find some new shiny thing to pursue. The fact that I'm intending to dredge up pictures from Over 9000verse, Diablo X, and even create new pics utilizing the Kinnikuman wiki and GiMP should probably inform how extremely unwilling I am to give this slop the time of day.

I have nothing to add. 

 

I am just here to pop over Kinnikuman

[The Superman 3 of People]

3 minutes ago, GoldenBrady said:

"Art" is a very broad term and there are so many people out there who have brilliant, creative ideas in their mind that they struggle to find an outlet for due to access, lack of education in artistic skillsets, lack of natural talent, mental blocks, physical/mental disabilities and much more. While I understand the controversies of AI art, I do think that it opens the door to many people who have creative minds that struggle to output that.

I know disabled artists. I'm dating and hope to spend the rest of my life with a disabled artist.

Every single one of them consider AI-generated assets an insult at best and an existential threat at worst.

I will not allow them to be used as a shield by people defending unethical behavior.

[Markw]

The truth is rendering in Daz doesn’t require very much artistic talent, it just requires a decent graphics card and patience, a little bit of expenditure as well if you want to produce a lot. The output is something that is easier to tweak, more personal, more rewarding and the people who took the time and effort to create the assets and tools you use get paid for the work they’ve done rather than having it pilfered by large tech companies and then used to give companies an alternative to employing you.

I would strongly recommend everyone who is using AI because they think they aren’t artistic enough to do anything else, download Daz and have a go at rendering and contributing to a community effort that’s been ongoing for two decades. Plenty of people here who would help you.

[EdJames]

39 minutes ago, Astil said:

I doubt you were a drop in the bucket, no offense. Larger and more problematic usages exist than 'render for small game'. Part of why I've tried to be careful to cast blame at MJ and not you. Only mild things I take umbrage with you about is not disclosing it was your art (youve apologized so its w/e at this point now) and if you used any pre-existing renders to make the AI renders by feeding the image to MJ. And thats not even on you, as you were doing it as a personal project. That shouldve been vetted by GDS. So basically no issues with you.

Feeding renders to MJ is a complicated answer, but one I’ll give…

There were basically three generations of these renders. And the answer is a little different for all, but the only ones that matter in this discourse are the ones you see in the game. Short answers; no, almost never. Long answer below…

- Gen1 : Is the current pack you are seeing almost in its entirety. Back then, feeding any images into MJ was largely ineffective, so I just had to describe them in vast detail and keep spamming the retry button to get them as close as possible. This part of the project was absolutely soul destroying TBH, it took a solid six months. Generative fill in Photoshop didn’t yet exist, you couldn’t select specific things to change and there were no persistent character models. Sometimes, I’d get a great version, but one thing would be off and I’d have to do it 50 more times, altering the prompt word by word to get it how I envisaged the character looking - which is why I perhaps resent the suggestion that it’s simply “create wrestler” in an AI and then save the result. Certain things it flatly wouldn’t and won’t do, so there was also a LOT of manual photoshop work to change minor things. Sometimes, I saved thousands of “cool render, just not for him/her” images which sometimes I’d use down the road for characters they were close enough to, normally obscure ones hidden away in the corners of the universe. 

- Gen2: This was a small update I did just before release of maybe 200 images. If I used any images, it was entirely those of the default data set which are purposely the only ones I had on my PC, baring alts which I was literally the creator of from TEW16/20. Some I just completely reimagined. If any look like they pinched someone else’s render, please do shout, because it’ll likely be coincidental, or an echo of me thinking something would look cool that I might’ve seen previously and not remembered.

- Gen 3…doesn’t matter. But it’s a “sometimes” and I’ve definitely rendered a couple based on what I think were cool interpretations by other render creators over the years, and in the recent AI threads. I’ve yet to clear those with people, but intend to and won’t use them if they have any issue. I think there’s six from memory. This process has become a lot quicker, as I now had generative fill for quick changes and alts, and MJ allowed you to target areas of the image if you didn’t like a nose or the jacket wasn’t what you hoped for, for example. 

I think in total, I’m now in excess of 40,000 total images created from start to finish of the project, which started around August last year, I think. 

 

Edited July 29 by EdJames

[splitgoose]

I am loving the new renders in the game 😁
I thought I'd hate it at first but I'm falling in love with it!!

[EdJames]

52 minutes ago, Astil said:

I doubt you were a drop in the bucket, no offense. Larger and more problematic usages exist than 'render for small game'. Part of why I've tried to be careful to cast blame at MJ and not you. Only mild things I take umbrage with you about is not disclosing it was your art (youve apologized so its w/e at this point now) and if you used any pre-existing renders to make the AI renders by feeding the image to MJ. And thats not even on you, as you were doing it as a personal project. That shouldve been vetted by GDS. So basically no issues with you.

My point I probably made badly here isn’t that I affected their overall profits, just that they didn’t make a profit off of me personally. I’d be confident in saying my personal server costs would’ve exceeded my £20p/m if that makes sense. I’d be staggered if I wasn’t a net negative to them.

Edited July 29 by EdJames

[Markw]

2 minutes ago, EdJames said:

My point I probably made badly here isn’t that I affected their overall profits, just that they didn’t make a profit off of me personally. I’d be confident in saying my personal server costs would’ve exceeded my £20p/m if that makes sense. I’d be staggered if I wasn’t a net negative to them.

I’d be staggered if they sold plans that lost them money.

[Astil]

5 minutes ago, EdJames said:

My point I probably made badly here isn’t that I affected their overall profits, just that they didn’t make a profit off of me personally. I’d be confident in saying my personal server costs would’ve exceeded my £20p/m if that makes sense. I’d be staggered if I wasn’t a net negative to them.

No real point in debating this as I dont work at MJ to dispute it haha. I get what you mean.

Edited July 29 by Astil

[EdJames]

5 minutes ago, Markw said:

I’d be staggered if they sold plans that lost them money.

I’d imagine they look across the aggregate rather than user-by-user. But either way, it’s not really important or worth debating.

Edited July 29 by EdJames

[Astil]

I am glad GDS did not pay. That was really my initial hang up.

Ive balanced my concious with charitable donations so I feel more okay purchasing the game myself. Totally understand those who dont want to purchase or who arent lucky enough to have disposable income to give like that. Ethical consumerism is dang near impossible (but still worth trying)

[Markw]

3 minutes ago, Astil said:

I am glad GDS did not pay. That was really my initial hang up.

I don’t think anyone’s said that?

 

Edit: Either way I mean, haven’t seen anything from GDS or Ed.

[Astil]

1 minute ago, Markw said:

I don’t think anyone’s said that?

No, but no one said they did not in the dev journal process either so it was ambiguous.

[Markw]

Just now, Astil said:

No, but no one said they did not in the dev journal process either so it was ambiguous.

Yeah no I mean it’s still ambiguous. Where has anyone involved said there wasn’t a financial transaction?

[ConcutioCaelum]

2 minutes ago, Markw said:

Yeah no I mean it’s still ambiguous. Where has anyone involved said there wasn’t a financial transaction?

Ed did in this very thread. He wasn't comissioned

[Astil]

I interpreted "dont work for" as "didnt get paid by" but yeah contractors exist my bad...

[Markw]

5 minutes ago, ConcutioCaelum said:

Ed did in this very thread. He wasn't comissioned

I don’t know what the laughing react’s for, but there’s a difference between not being commissioned and there being no financial transaction, and when people are being careful about that wording and not just saying ‘I didn’t get paid for it’ there’s probably a reason for that.