I'm getting pretty tired of Vince's Samoa Joe ripoff

[sphanlon]

He accuses everyone else of copying WWE, but he just had to have his own dominant Samoan. And of course he makes him out to be a cartoonish primitive. Jamal seems quite athletic, but in typical WWE-trained-wrestler fashion, he knows just a handful of very lackluster moves. TNA is leaving this crap in the dust more and more from a true wrestling standpoint. Not saying TNA will ever topple them; there are too many people that actually eat up this garbage.

[The-619]

Umaga really pisses me off, he's not a bad wrestler but he is such a ripoff of Samoa Joe. I say if fans wanna see a fat samoan wrestler, watch TNA.

[Nevermore]

Hang on, Jamal is actually a member of the Samoan wrestling dynasty. Plus, that sort of character existed long before Samoa Joe. Look at Afa, Sika, Samu etc. Those guys were wrestling for the WWF and MSW back in the early eighties. As much as I dislike WWE, you can hardly credit a stereotypical Samoan gimmick to TNA. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[IWWROCKS]

You say he is a Samoa Joe rip off..Does samoa joe wear war paint stuff on his face? No....and as previously mentioned...wwe/f has always had samoans. From afa to rikishi, so technically TNA are stealing the big samoan gimmick. Plus Umaga is based on a rugby player.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=IWWROCKS;134714]Plus Umaga is based on a rugby player.[/QUOTE] Aah, I was wondering if anyone else had considered that. I thought about it at first but union really ain't that big in the States :confused:. Quote he Raven Nevermore

[weirdo_man]

meh, it just kills me that he gets this push and I've seen his ass smash someone's face and his thumb press into someone's throat and his head headbutt someone in every match he has done. also, does anyone else notice that there aren't any heels in wwe? guys like randy orton who are trying to be heel just get no crowd reaction, and it seems that the wwe crowd has a general apathy about them that makes me feel bad about ever watching wwe... last night was the first time i had in about a month, heh. if the fans would just stop going to the shows and stop watching, we'd all be better off because it would be the FORC.

[sphanlon]

Maybe I need to clarify my point more. I give Vince Mcmahon full credit for a long history of offensive portrayals of Pacific Islanders. In TNA(+ROH, etc.), Joe is a real person, and not some cartoonish cannibal headhunter guy. The point is Vince wanted to go back to the "Islander formula" at this point in time because of Samoa Joe. Of course it's not a full copy because he won't portray them as human beings like Joe. They have to be made over like they swing from coconut trees and eat shipwrescked white people. So he is ripping off. And the small way he is diverging, is his usual degrading of these proud people.

[Nevermore]

Careful dude, Afa and Sika invented and set the tone for that gimmick, not Vince. Proof being in the fact that they used the same gimmicks in MSW (before they wrestled for WWF) and WXW. As far as bringing him in to combat Joe's success, for a start, there is no evidence that this is the case and, even if he is, good luck to him. WWE are now in competition with TNA and, therefore, that kind of thing is going to happen. Bottom line: whether you love or hate Vince's monopoly on wrestling, he has earned it. He had to face similar actions taken by WCW and he came out on top. Give the devil his due... Vince set the standard for the modern era of wrestling. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[sphanlon]

Really, huh? I guess they felt it was the only or best way for them to get over back in those days when such people were a mystery to most. I just don't know why it took so long to have a Polynesian wrestler who doesn't stalk around like an animal and grunt and yell like he just came out of an island jungle. It's a bit silly and over the top at this point, like most far out gimmicks. Stuff like that was gold in the 80s, now it's pretty farsical to a lot of fans. I'm suprised there aren't groups in this day and age who protest that sort of thing. Not saying I'd agree with their whining, but having several island boys come through there and just about none ever stringing together an intelligible sentence and being so primal as part of the gimmick is one of the least politically correct things I've ever been aware of.

[Nevermore]

Very true and, to an extent, I agree with your sentiments. However, when you look back the WWF/E has always specialised in OTT or silly gimmicks. Moreover, on the politically correct note, back in the '80s, nearly all the gimmicks were ethnically based (eg. Nikolai Volkoff, Ivan Putski, Bruno Sammartino). Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Sartagis]

Just some info on Jamal's Umaga character I read in an article on one of the many online wrestling sites (back when he first resigned) that alot of the idea for Umaga came from Jamal and he wanted to do the character to pay tribute to his heritage. Though who knows if that is true or not.

[Captain Kayfabe]

I'm getting tired of people saying that the Umaga character is a rip-off of Samoa Joe. If anything they went back to the "stereotypical" Samoan gimmick - and to be truthfull, he almost a carbon copy of the Mana The Polynesian Warrior (gimmick, look, move-set, etc.) as opposed to Samoa Joe.

[NeoMetsFan]

But...but...Umaga is the "Undefeated Samoan Spiking Machine".

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;134844]Careful dude, Afa and Sika invented and set the tone for that gimmick, not Vince. Proof being in the fact that they used the same gimmicks in MSW (before they wrestled for WWF) and WXW. As far as bringing him in to combat Joe's success, for a start, there is no evidence that this is the case and, even if he is, good luck to him. WWE are now in competition with TNA and, therefore, that kind of thing is going to happen.[/QUOTE] First off, I'd have to agree that this gimmick isn't the brainchild of Vince. It's a two decade (or more) old schtick that he dredged up from the depths to have another go with. That seems to be a trend he's following quite a bit of late. Bring back DX (good, though it remains to be seen if they'll actually do something compelling with it), bringing back Tatanka (gotta have your tomahawk waving Native American), running storylines with "legends" (was that the only use they could find for Eugene?), relaunching ECW (for better or worse, mostly the latter, in my view), and now this. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Hardy Boyz reunion since the E is devoid of compelling tag teams at the moment (London & Kendrick being a possible exception). It sure would fit the pattern of "back to the future" that WWE has been following of late. Although I will say that using the B show (Smackdown) for their "New Talent Initiative" was a very good move. Anyway, I don't think TNA is "in competition" with WWE, no moreso than Netscape was "in competition" with Microsoft (see how that turned out :p). The gap is near insurmountable at this point since TNA has real wrestlers who can work in the ring and WWE has some folks who can (but who are leashed and prevented from doing so) and a lot of folks who simply can't and don't seem to even want to (yes Khali, I'm lookin' at you). The appeal to the casual fan is wider for the 'E than it is for TNA (and that's not a bad thing. Their money spends all the same but casual fans are....well, casual. Fairweather.). But I can't help wondering if WWE is seeing what I think is the obvious draw (put Jeff Hardy in DX) or whether they'll make him another nobody midcarder or worse, put him in ECW and go for the overdone, trite, "David vs Goliath" angle against the Big Show.

[rocky0880]

Actually thats not a bad idea putting Jeff and/or Matt in DX. They need a tag team in there. Yeah HHH and HBK are a "tag team" but I don't see them dropping down to take the tag titles anymore. If you remember, the original DX had a member going for every title. X-Pac was in feuds for the Euro title, NAW had the tag straps, HHH was in line for the IC title and Shawn had the World. Thats what made them a stable. Frankly thats what makes any stable, having a contender for the titles. Right now HHH and HBK won't be dropping to go after the tag titles and neither of their egos will allow them to go after the IC title at this point in their career. Putting a team like the Hardyz would be a great writing decision as it gives them a team to get the tag straps now. Plus their gimmick could kind of be worked into the whole DX mindset since Matt/Jeff were both kinda "anti-establisment". Yeah they don't have the charisma that NAW had but I don't know of any tag team in the E right now that does have any charisma.

[Outlawjc]

Samoa Joe is the first "real" wrestler? Not just a savage gimmick? The First? umm......there was another guy.......what was his name........He was part of the Samoa Dynasty........You know Peter Mavia's grandson (who by the way predates Afa and Sika).........Oh yeah I rember.........The Rock

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Outlawjc;135701]Samoa Joe is the first "real" wrestler? Not just a savage gimmick? The First? umm......there was another guy.......what was his name........He was part of the Samoa Dynasty........You know Peter Mavia's grandson (who by the way predates Afa and Sika).........Oh yeah I rember.........The Rock[/QUOTE] Uhh no offense to you or The Rock but I think you should define what "real wrestler" is. Personally, I couldn't see Dwayne putting on a consensus MOTY with Kenta Kobashi or anyone else for that matter. While he was hands down the best entertainer in my memory (yes, even better than Hulk Hogan), his in-ring skill isn't what he's most known for. But then again, Joe couldn't cut a promo anywhere near as well as The Rock, even on the best day of his life. And rocky, that is exactly what I was thinking. DX right now doesn't qualify as a stable. They're essentially a main event level tag team, for all intents and purposes. Bring in the Hardyz, Carlito, and maybe Trish (or even better, Beth Phoenix when she's cleared to work again) and you have a full fledged stable. Remember, by their (HBK and Triple H) own admission, the DX of today is NOT the DX of before ([URL="http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/newdx"]look here[/URL]) so adding folks who might not fit the old DX image wouldn't be so unbelievable now.

[Outlawjc]

Real not as in Kurt Angle, Jon Smith or Bruce Baumgaartner. Real as in Not a savage, spearchucking, head shrinking, grass skirt wearing person. Real as in every day person, not a cartoon character from Vinces sick mind. No offence taken. :D

[sphanlon]

[QUOTE=Outlawjc;135775]Real not as in Kurt Angle, Jon Smith or Bruce Baumgaartner. Real as in Not a savage, spearchucking, head shrinking, grass skirt wearing person. Real as in every day person, not a cartoon character from Vinces sick mind. No offence taken. :D[/QUOTE] Yup, that's what I meant. And point taken about the Rock. I forgot about that since only his African-American ethnicity was ever made an issue(Nation of Domination); yes, it was mentioned, but only as much as saying he was the high chief's grandson. mmm, High Chief? There's another one to add to my point, I think.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=sphanlon;135839]Yup, that's what I meant. And point taken about the Rock. I forgot about that since only his African-American ethnicity was ever made an issue(Nation of Domination); yes, it was mentioned, but only as much as saying he was the high chief's grandson. mmm, High Chief? There's another one to add to my point, I think.[/QUOTE] Umm, Peter Maivia WAS a High Chief. It wasn't a schtick. That's what the tattoos on his legs signified (or so I thought?).

[Nevermore]

Plus the NOD was a very (and I mean very) race oriented angle. Rock has, therefore, been involved in a similar, although different, stereotype to the res of his family. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[TCP1]

Umaga is a typical WWE savage gimmick aimed at immitating Joe! Even down to the tone they use when he assaults his victims! The Rock, by the end, was a very good in-ring worker. Did you see WMX7 or Iron man match against HHH or his feud with Jericho, or match against Lesner?

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=TCP1;136039]The Rock, by the end, was a very good in-ring worker. Did you see WMX7 or Iron man match against HHH or his feud with Jericho, or match against Lesner?[/QUOTE] I think I've seen every match he's done since he was Flex Kavana. But I think it comes down to personal taste and opinion. Was he a very good in-ring worker by WWE standards? Undoubtedly. But I think the important part of that sentence is [B][I]by WWE standards[/I][/B], which I'm sure we can all agree is a standard quite a bit lower than the world as a whole. There are some people (Kurt Angle comes to mind) who consistently show themselves being capable of having world class skills even while being suppressed by the WWE booking style. Rock wasn't one of those people, in my opinion. Someone like Kurt Angle is skilled enough in the ring to fit in well with pretty much any of the major promotion types. A large part of Rock's appeal comes from his look and charisma and mic skills, not his in-ring ability. That's why I make distinctions. I'm not saying he sucked in the ring (quite the contrary), just that the major part of his 'game' was entertainment based.

[Travis]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;134844] As far as bringing him in to combat Joe's success, for a start, there is no evidence that this is the case and, even if he is, good luck to him. WWE are now in competition with TNA and, therefore, that kind of thing is going to happen. Bottom line: whether you love or hate Vince's monopoly on wrestling, he has earned it. He had to face similar actions taken by WCW and he came out on top. Give the devil his due... Vince set the standard for the modern era of wrestling. [/QUOTE] If you mean Vince McMahon Sr. All Vince did was get control of the WWF when his dad was getting old. Everything was intact when he took over. He didn't start it up from nothing. Vince also set the standard in wrestling back in the 80's, but it's 2006, can't it just go away already. But back to the Samoan thing. If I remember, WWE is labeling him as the Undefeated Samoan Bulldozer or something like that. That's pretty much a rip-off of TNA's Undefeated Samoan Submission Machine Samoa Joe. If any of you can't see that, your a mark. I can't possibly see WWE going a whole further on creative product level. They can't come up with anything new, fresh that is actually wrestling related. Anything they do wrestling wise is either copying it from someone else(an Undefeated Samoan) or bringing up something they did 10 years ago(DX). If you people really dig this, you need to open your eyes. Just because some WWE fans these days are 14 years or younger, doesn't mean you need to see what happened in wrestling when you were born. It has happened, it's done. Just buy some tapes, we don't need to see the same thing on TV again, that's what Tapes, DVD's and a DVR is for.

[thug saint oga]

yep, umaga is a mana the polynesian warrior ripoff, not samoa joe. he is getting a "samoa joe push" though. joe and umaga have nothing in common minus their mean streak and stiff moves, but the two are just nothing alike other than their heritige and undefeated streaks. if you put joe and 'maga side by side, would you say one is ripping off the other? nope. other than joe's intro at bound for glory last year, and the fact that his name has "samoa" in it, he doesn't call into attention that he's a samoan wildman, hell, he could be mexican joe and it wouldn't affect his character or style. besides, umaga sucks and joe doesn't, hence he can't be copying him. plus the E sucks as a whole, so if it bugs you then change the channel. maybe we'll luck out and 'maga might get to go the wwecw and job out all it's former champions. f'n b.s.