Notes from someone at Summerslam-Spoilers

[sphanlon]

I was there and I wasn't all that impressed. Chavo vs. Rey-expected it to steal the show and outshine the rest since these are two of the few WWE "Superstars" that actually know what wrestling is! Big Show vs. Sabu-Sabu screwed up some spots again. It was noticeably hard for him to work with someone so big and lathargic and who he can't move around or pick up himself. Show took so long to set tables and stuff up. A lot of the spots weren't that impressive and they seemed to just walk into them, no imaginitive setup. Had a chance to put the title on someone that actually is ECW and who their fans respect and care about; enough with this big freakish stiff! Hogan vs. Orton-Hogan was limited(knee injury). Suprised he actually let it look like Randy would have beaten him if not for the ropes. But seriously, it took him like an hour to drop the leg. After the boot, he played to the crowd so much and Orton had to lay there like an idiot pretending to be knocked out for over 2 minutes basically, by a little boot to the face. And then of course, a very lax cover. Not sure how happy Randy is with this. Foley vs. Flair-Liked it. What happened with Foley and Melina? I was not around the Titantron, and it had no sound anyway. Batista vs. Booker-Either make Booker a transitional champion or legitimize him. They did neither. Most unsatisfying match of the night. McMahons vs. DX-Liked it. But come on, if you're going to have Finley around, give us little bastard! And it looks like Umaga will finally get a feud/matches he won't totally dominate(Kane). Cena vs. Edge-Now, I don't know what it looked like on tv. The haters seemed more vocal more of the time. However, they were vastly outnumbered by Cena fans. It was ugly after the ending. Think jobbing Bret Hart in a match everyone thinks he's going to win....in Canada. People were pissed. Kids were crying. Maybe the WWE set it up so perfectly that they wanted to swerve people. Well, it worked. If you have plans for Edge, fine. But they should have just put Cena in something he could win, or at least make him look stronger and not so pathetic and defeated. This is not the town to show Cena dejected with his tail between his legs. Was not received well. And if you're just going to give him the title anyway at some point soon, it should have just been here. Wherever it happens, he'll get booed out of the arena, unlike it would have been here.

[weirdo_man]

I just wish that people would realize that the WWE product is bad and stale and stop attending/watching shows, even if that means watching NO wrestling for awhile because they don't like TNA...

[mystic]

currently reading some of the fan reports over at pwinsider and found a couple comments that are good. "The Chavo/Rey Match was good live, but even the 9 year-olds sitting behind me knew that Eddie's widow was coming to ringside to turn heel". "Booker-Batistia gets the 'Go get food and merchandise time' match of the night award. Crowd was dead with many leaving during the match with lots of 'Boring' chants".

[weirdo_man]

i read on obsessedwithwrestling that the chavo vs rey match had a lot of fans pissed off because of the misuse of eddie's wife and the betrayal of his memory.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;139288]i read on obsessedwithwrestling that the chavo vs rey match had a lot of fans pissed off because of the misuse of eddie's wife and the betrayal of his memory.[/QUOTE] no suprises there tbh! I have to admit i really enjoyed the PPV, perhaps its cos i was watching it with a good mate and we had beer and chicken nuggets! But i thought there were a few good matches. The Foley Vs Flair being the best. The story building up to it had been so well told and Flair was the best hes been for years! It may not be as good as the attitude era WWE but it was light years better than the great american bash.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;139199]I just wish that people would realize that the WWE product is bad and stale and stop attending/watching shows, even if that means watching NO wrestling for awhile because they don't like TNA...[/QUOTE] Dream on! As long as there are people buying Britney Spears albums, the National Enquirer, and similar garbage, there will always be viewers for WWE. Not to disparage folks who like WWE, I'm just saying that their product appeals to the fan who likes entertainment but not necessarily wrestling. There are well over a dozen promotions with better wrestling than WWE but no one does the entertainment part (at least not in as infantile and sophomoric a fashion) as the 'E. You have to make concessions to appeal to the broad, mainstream crowd. You see those concessions made in formulaic TV shows and music ('reality TV' is a perfect example. So is 'pop') and in this case, the wrestling quality is the concession. And as far as Booker-Batista goes, they couldn't put the title on him just like that. If they did, they'd have to come up with TWO new storylines instead of just continuing this old, tired one. Doesn't seem like much in the way of creativity is coming from Steph's division so the SummerSlam result made perfect sense to me. Oh and the Guerrero-Mysterio thing is going to continue through to Armageddon, I'm betting.

[panix04]

whats wrong with Britney Spears? :D Only kidding! I hope your not suggesting that just because i like the WWE i like pop music! Seriosly though, you have a valid point the WWE is trying to appeal to a mainstream market and they do it very succesfully. Sure people on here realise the standard of wrestling is pants, but then we tend to be fairly knowledable about wrestling. My old man is an example of the WWE's target auduence. He watches the WWE and he likes Chris Masters. Now just about everyone on here knows that masters couldn't hold a torch to some of the lesser known indy guys let alone the star peformers, but my dads a casual fan and what the WWE produces, he enjoys. He watches wrestling because he enjoys the pantomime-esque theatrics of it all. Now if the WWE toned up there product and focused more on in-ring ability instead of the story-based stuff the do at the moment they would potentially alienate a large portion of there fanbase. Because like it or not there are more people want to see a guy with a face painted red eat worms the there are that want to see Samoa Joe tie Christopher Daniels in knots. They may not be fans of pure wrestling but they are a much larger group of people than us 'internet fans' you know, the people who know the difference between an Iron bar and an Arm bar!

[weirdo_man]

Well Panix, while you make a lot of good points, I just don't see why the WWE can't TRY to put on some decent matches in the middle of all of their soap opera. When the best match at a pay per view is between two men who have retired more than 6 times each, I think there's something wrong there. Sabu misses all kinds of spots--ok. But guess who wasn't missing spots before WWECW come back? Oh yeah, Sabu. He was still gold in the ring before he signed with WWE. I don't know if he doesn't try because he doesn't have to anymore, or because he really doesn't want to work there. And then there are so many workers that just aren't good in the ring. I mean, it just kills me that someone like Batista, who I don't think is that good on the mic or in the ring, is headlining shows for the WWE (Although he faced someone that CAN be exciting SOMETIMES in the ring... spinarooni!) but yeah, i dont' know what i'm getting at. I guess I'm just saying that it would be nice if the WWE would try to have decent matches, and not hire people like Viscera but rather hire people like Osyris (he's another big black guy, works around where I live, and he CAN MOVE... just the other week he did a top rope moonsault... luckily the guy moved or he likely would have died.) jklaajkljasdjk i dunno, it just frustrates me that they can't put out a decent wrestling product and focus only on their storylines with their team of 235235 writers (which is, by the way, why they can do better storylines than anyone else... not to mention that every fan knows all of the workers and current storylines...)

[panix04]

i agree with you entirely, they should be striving to make the matches as entertaining as the plots that lead to them. But then, on the flipside you have the point that just because someone is the best techinal worker on the planet, knows every move invented and has the psychology of a 50 year old yet if they cant act/talk then what good are they to a company that's based around telling stories (like the wwe is) sure there are good workers who are good on the mic that the WWE hasn't got on there roster but i dont think its safe to assume that the WWE hasn't contacted people. I would imagine with a team as big as the WWE have behind them, they know about just about every wrestler on the planet (im talking pro-level - not yard tards etc) and im also fairly certain that if anyone good becomes contractually available the WWE takes a look at them and evaluates them on there merits. As for the Batista thing, i think he is there mainly for his look. I cant stand him personally and i have to admit im not really a Booker T fan either. In fact i think i can count the workers on the smackdown roster i actually do like on one hand, London and Kendrick, Regal, Greg Helms yep, im struggling! But Batista does appear to have gotten over - largely due to the huge push he was given. But who am i too argue with that? He is obviosly making the company money which, i guess, justifys his position in the main event scene. Because wether or not its right or wrong the WWE is a business and they are there to make money, so if there is a guy is technically a better wrestler but only sells 200 tee-shirts per month and a guy who cant wrestle for tofee who's tee shirts sell 2000 per month - business sense dictates that the more valuable wrestler financially gets the push. In closing i think it is easy to decide push's within a computer game where your aim is to put on the best show possible but there is a lot more to think about in real life when you are trying to run a business and although you may not like the product (and at times i would agree with you) it does sell to a hell of a lot of people so there formula works for them.

[Remianen]

Like I said, it's not my intent to insult folks who like the WWE, just to point out their target audience. The similarity between folks who think what Britney Spears produces is music and what the National Enquirer produces is journalism, are the same kinds of folks who think what the 'E produces is 'wrestling'. It's not. It's exactly what they repeatedly call it: Sports Entertainment. And personally, I like Batista. He's the perfect poster boy for Sports Entertainment. He's got a great look, a quiet charisma, an intense in-ring persona, and he cleans up well (come on, you gotta give the man credit. He looks GOOD in a suit). He's good enough on the mic to get himself over in combination with the rest of his abilities. Sure he has the stereotypical moveset of a big man (all power, zero technique) but that combination has proven to be a successful approach for WWE. I have many friends who love WWE. My problem is that with many of them (even the more intelligent and discerning ones), they're believing that the WWE is wrestling. I took two friends who are avid WWE fans (I'm talking spending upwards of $9,000 a year on merchandise and attending every show in the Tri-State area, avid) to ChickFight in June and they were blown away at how well the women's workers performed in the ring. "These (women) can GO!" Duh! With the other matches APW put on that weekend, they got to see a totally different product and one that stood in stark contrast to what they thought was 'wrestling'. So when some ignoramus says or implies that a person can't be a 'pro wrestler' because they don't work for WWE, that kinda pisses me off. The thing that really gets me is the fact that with stories being the only thing that differentiates WWE from its competitors, why are those stories so bland and tired? Why have those stories been so bland and so tired for so many years? Why? Because the audience doesn't demand better. With most of its audience being television based (I'm willing to bet that at least 40% of WWE 'fans' haven't been to a live event in the last 10 years, if ever), it's treated like television and thus doesn't have to live up to a high standard. People demand more when they have to actually show up to an arena, pay for a ticket & food and parking and stuff. Does it make money? Sure! But that's not saying much. The pet rock made money! People (especially Americans) pay money for crap every hour of every day. :p

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=Remianen;139451]... it's treated like television and thus doesn't have to live up to a high standard... [/QUOTE] Standards? Pro Wrestling will never, ever have to worry about living up to any standards - at least not in this country. Perhaps the average Japanese chap thinks highly of it (I've no real clue), but pro wrestling has always (and will always) be considered on the same level as bearded ladies and circus geeks to reasonably intelligent and educated people. You think it's called a male soap opera as means to raise it up from the muck? And how can you argue that it isn't? You can point to RoH and Chickfight all you want, but you'll end up with blank stares as reply. It still boils down to sweaty people rolling around on the floor pretending to beat each other up. Sure, the WWE takes the lowest common denominator and multiplies it tenfold. Then again, the majority of you continue to watch it. Even worse, a percentage of those purchase the PPVs and the DVDs - which is really what fuels the process. You've only yourselves to blame. If McMahon is the businessman that people credit him as being, a years worth of horrendous PPV sales should open his eyes. Right? ;) Now excuse me, I need to rewatch my Superstar Billy Graham DVD. :)

[panix04]

i would like to shoulder the blame being as i am a WWE fan, but i dont keep the company afloat single handidly! i know theres others out there who must atleast tolerate it!

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=panix04;139487]i would like to shoulder the blame being as i am a WWE fan, but i dont keep the company afloat single handidly! i know theres others out there who must atleast tolerate it![/QUOTE] Lemmings off a cliff. Justify it on your way down all you want, but you're still splattering on those rocks.

[panix04]

lemmings dont deliberatly jump off cliffs you know. They are occasionally pushed off by other lemmings! No if you dont mind im gonna go put on my spice girls CD and watch a WWE bra and panties match - yeah!

[weirdo_man]

[QUOTE=D. Boon's Ghost;139471]but pro wrestling has always (and will always) be considered on the same level as bearded ladies and circus geeks to reasonably intelligent and educated people. [/QUOTE] Um, excuse me? So you're saying people like myself, the Rock, and Kane, who all have college educations, aren't reasonably intelligent or educated? Do you know what all three of us have in common? We all went to college, and we're all professional wrestlers. Dismissing wrestling as being purely for stupid and uneducated people is a trifle ridiculous, and maybe you should think before you speak like that, because I'm pretty sure that EVERYONE on these forums is a pro wrestling fan... so I guess you're saying that none of us are reasonably intelligent or educated? Mind your tongue.

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;139795]Um, excuse me? So you're saying people like myself, the Rock, and Kane, who all have college educations, aren't reasonably intelligent or educated? Do you know what all three of us have in common? We all went to college, and we're all professional wrestlers. Dismissing wrestling as being purely for stupid and uneducated people is a trifle ridiculous, and maybe you should think before you speak like that, because I'm pretty sure that EVERYONE on these forums is a pro wrestling fan... so I guess you're saying that none of us are reasonably intelligent or educated? Mind your tongue.[/QUOTE] That's exactly what I am telling you, studly. Let me guess -- you are college educated and work indy feds on the weekend for $20 a night. Yeah, that sure is intelligent. Whoppity freaking do! Do you also do Cowboys and Indians? For someone so intelligent and educated, you sure seemed to miss the entire concept of satire - eh? Regardless, if you want to justify your little hobby then that is your choice. I never said that intelligent people do not like wrestling, but I'd certainly hope they would recognize it for what it is: entertainment for the lowest common demographics.

[panix04]

Your making me pretty irate now, there is absolutly nothing wrong with cowboys and indians! :D

[weirdo_man]

I'm sorry, I miss where saying that wrestling to intelligent people is a side-show attraction comes across as satire and not just saying that all intelligent people think wrestling is retarded. And what's dumb about working indy feds and college? Somehow I don't see a connection there. And to justify my little hobby? So... what, you don't like wrestling? I'm not sure what you're getting at in insulting me for enjoying professional wrestling. When you said that wrestling is a sideshow attraction, you didn't just say WWE, you said all of wrestling. I don't even like the WWE, I think it's garbage as my aforementioned posts in this thread would show, and I'm confused as to why it's wrong for me to enjoy professional wrestling... when you must also like it, otherwise, why are you on this thread?

[panix04]

WM, i think you have genuinly taken things the wrong way, D.Boon is as big a wrestling fan as anyone here. He wouldn't run himself down now would he? I think the point he is trying to get at, is that wrestling isn't perceived (and probably never will be) as a classy form of entertainment and to be honest he's right, there is nothing at all 'classy' about fat, sweaty guys throwing eatchother around. Doesn't make it any less fun to watch though!

[weirdo_man]

But see I disagree. Even before I began wrestling, I knew that it took some of hte most complex things in the world to do. Wrestling is no less of an art form than pretty much any form of art. And on top of that, it takes amazing physical and mental strength to do. If someone can't recognize, that while it might be targetted at the lowest common demoninator, that it holds some of the most talented, intelligent, and amazing athletes in the world, then I have to say that they aren't intelligent enough to realize that, or, they haven't thought for more than 2 seconds about wrestling. Wrestling is an art form, one of the most complex in the world, and to discredit it in any way is unfair to the people who have put their flesh and blood, and hearts and souls, into it.

[jerlito]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;140247]But see I disagree. Even before I began wrestling, I knew that it took some of hte most complex things in the world to do. Wrestling is no less of an art form than pretty much any form of art. And on top of that, it takes amazing physical and mental strength to do. If someone can't recognize, that while it might be targetted at the lowest common demoninator, that it holds some of the most talented, intelligent, and amazing athletes in the world, then I have to say that they aren't intelligent enough to realize that, or, they haven't thought for more than 2 seconds about wrestling. Wrestling is an art form, one of the most complex in the world, and to discredit it in any way is unfair to the people who have put their flesh and blood, and hearts and souls, into it.[/QUOTE] wait i agree but are you a wrestler and panix has a point you should to the mighty poor panix i mean king panix i playing around.

[Nevermore]

Dude, wrestling is not an artform it is, however, a form of entertainment. There is a big difference! Art is, first and foremost, an expression of emotion throuh public media. Yes, wrestling is a public showcase but I doubt strongly that any wrestler truly puts his heart and emotions on the line when performing. If you honestly believe that the same level of contemplation, heartache and genius went into Hulk Hogan's Wrestlemania performances as went into Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony then I am afraid that you are gravely mistaken. I love wrestling with a true passion and, if given the chance, I may even wrestle as a job/hobby but I have no problem admitting that it is not the medium through which I air my most sophisticated side. It is really great entertainment but, equally, I can see why so many people think it's ridiculous. In short, I think Panix and D Boon (as always) have hit the nail squarely and succinctly on the head. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[weirdo_man]

Most people that think it's ridiculous think so just because they think it's apes hitting each other. To say that Hulk Hogan's Wrestlemania performances did not have the same effort as many modern day films, which are art forms, I think would be bull****. And when you think of matches like a 60 minute iron man match between Mick Foley and Steve Austin, they might have put as much of their heart and soul into the match, or maybe several matches combined, as was put into any major symphony. Also, if you think of stuff like Taker VS Mick Foley, hell in a cell, I would think that Mick Foley's heart and soul was put into the match. Somehow I find a well constructed wrestling match to be just as amazing as a painting, a novel, or a symphony. The physical and mental endurance required for professional wrestling can only be rivalled by other artists, because most other art forms people think only require mental endurance, but physical endurance is something that is required for all art forms as well. To say that Hulk Hogan hasn't put his heart and soul into wrestling is incorrect. The guy has problems with most of his major joints, is nearly blind, and still wrestles today even though he most definitely doesn't need the money. To say that Terry Funk hasn't put every ounce of energy he has had in the last 40 year into professional wrestling is equally ridiculous, becaue the poor man is lucky to still be alive from this wrestling. I dunno, maybe I just view it differently, but there's just something about the similarity in mental and physical endurance that strikes me, not to mention the construction of a wrestling match, which is no different from a great book or movie when done correctly. But maybe I'm wrong. Whether you think that it should be thought of as ridiculous by some is up to you, but I'll always beg to differ. Dislike it, okay. Think it's wrong, get out of my country :p

[Undertaker666]

Summerslam was awful, perhaps the worst one that I can remember. Chavo vs Rey - Ok match, obvious ending. However, WWE should [b]STOP[/b] using these sorts of storylines. Big Show vs Sabu - I'm not even going to give an opinion on this. Hogan vs Orton - What was the point in this? We all knew who'd win and because of Hogan's injury it was slow and painful to watch. Foley vs Flair - Best match of the night. Good to see Foley up to usual standards and great to see Flair take his intensity through the roof. Poor ending though. Batista vs Booker - I was bored before the match even began and couldn't agree more with the crowds "boring" chants. McMahons vs DX - Good idea to have lots of peeps run in, obvious Kane would come down to kick Umaga's teeth in, awful having Vince in the ring again. Cena vs Edge - Once again, obvious that Edge would somehow cheat to win. Overall, every match was predictable except for the Flair vs Foley match which I though could go either way. Weirdo Man - Agreed, WWE is stale. I used to watch Raw and Smackdown every week without fail for years, now I can't even be bothered half of the time. Smackdown in particular. Remianen - What Britney Spears produces is music, just apparently not music to your tastes. To everyone who mentioned Batista - As a wrestler I hate him because he's slow and awful. As a personality figure he's great because he's got the look, charisma and intensity. WWE as a whole: I'm all for storylines that lead up to matches because it can add to the match (Flair vs Foley for example) and would quite happily watch a 50/50 mix. The problem being is that WWE has gone too far down the storyline path, you know something's wrong when you can watch Raw for 2 hours and only see about 20 minutes of actual wrestling. Add to that all the times they repeat everything over and over and over.... zzzzzz.... Anyway, grouping people together simply by what they buy, watch or listen to not logical in the slightest. Just because someone buys Britney Spears, read tabloids or watch WWE they can't all be generalised into the same intelligence bracket. Some people who do the mundane 9 to 5 or have high pressure jobs simply need an escape, going to or watching WWE so they can scream and shout at someone who always cheats to win can give them that. Or if they want to listen to something fun and upbeat to lighten their mood, Britney Spears (or any pop music) can also give them that release. Wrestling an artform? You could argue it either way. Art is someone's way of expressing themselves so you could say that wrestling is a way of the wrestlers expressing themselves, whether it be through their characters or in-ring work. I don't think that anyone could deny the athletic and mental ability it takes to wrestle though. Nevermore: You can't really argue with the people Weirdo Man has highlighted about putting their heart and soul into the business. One moment that springs to mind is Wrestlemania after Chris Benoit's title win, when Eddie Guerrero came in the ring and they embraced it was a special moment. After all the years, the ups, the downs and the injuries, they'd both finally reached the top. I think everyone on here has valid points and that no-one is trying to insult anyone else, afterall this is a public forum for discussion and it'd be a very boring place if everyone agreed now wouldn't it?!

[panix04]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;140247]But see I disagree. Even before I began wrestling, I knew that it took some of hte most complex things in the world to do. Wrestling is no less of an art form than pretty much any form of art. And on top of that, it takes amazing physical and mental strength to do. If someone can't recognize, that while it might be targetted at the lowest common demoninator, that it holds some of the most talented, intelligent, and amazing athletes in the world, then I have to say that they aren't intelligent enough to realize that, or, they haven't thought for more than 2 seconds about wrestling. Wrestling is an art form, one of the most complex in the world, and to discredit it in any way is unfair to the people who have put their flesh and blood, and hearts and souls, into it.[/QUOTE] It seems to me like im arguing the wrong side of this battle! I love wrestling and not just the WWE, i watch it whenever i can - TNA, 1PW pretty much anything i can when i have access to sky (which is far too infrequent for my liking) and as a wrestling fan i think wrestling can be violent and brutal but i also recognise that at times it can be beautiful, almost poetic! When i see moments like Foleys fall from the cell or the rock/hogan handshake i still get a chill doen my spine! But i am a wrestling fan! And to Joe public wrestling is never gonna be received as legitimate - if i talk about wrestling when im out with my mates there response is usually along the lines of "isn't that just gay men in tights?" no i laugh that off, however, i genuinely feel that most people outside of wrestling fans, naive as they may be, take this view!