Just wondering

[flamebrain]

IF (that's if people) WWE is as bad as people say, why do they keep watching and complaining? Shouldn't they just stop watching? IF (that's if people) TNA is as bad as people say, why do they keep watching and complaining? Shouldn't they just stop watching? IF you like TNA and not WWE why aren't you praising TNA instead of bashing WWE? IF you like WWE and not TNA why aren't you praising WWE instead of bashing TNA? IF you like Chikara, where are you? It rules!! :p

[jagilki]

I like wrestling. I don't care if its TNA, WWE or whatever.

[gingarob]

I like TNA (less and less since Russo took over) and I don't watch WWE. Personally my favourite promotion is ROH and I'm trying to get into Puroresu much more (awaiting DVD delivery atm)

[Trashbear]

Tough questions to which there are no easy answers. I'll answer them honestly though, since I think there is some truth in each idea. I think the WWE is as bad as people say and I continue to watch because I'm holding out hope that they'll turn a corner and start improving. They also have a good match once in a while, and I like some of the wrestlers (Edge, Mr. Kennedy, Johnny Nitro). I think TNA is as bad as people say about 2/3rds of the time and ranges from great to just-OK the other part of the time. I watch it because they have great matches about once a month and at the very least the X-Division spot-fests are entertaining in small doses. I also watch in the hopes that they'll find their niche creatively, because the current idea of trying to out-WWE the WWE isn't working. And two answer your last two questions...you can praise both of them and also have negative things to say about both. The WWE gets bashed more though because I think people expect more from them. I mean, TNA is a five year old company that runs one regular venue and gets one hour of TV a week plus one PPV. The WWE has been around since...1963 I think, I'm not sure, is worth more than the Knicks, Mets, and Rangers sports teams combined, and has 5 hours of original programming a week plus at least one PPV. The WWE has been home to some of the greatest moments in pro wrestling. That's why there's so much backlash, they've had such a fall from grace compared to TNA, which really hasn't had its golden age yet.

[Grudge]

it has to do with dissapointment. Having expectations for one and hopes for another and seeing that both are neglected. I watch because I love to watch, be it horrible or great, I still enjoy it, otherwise I wouldn't watch(duh). Just like if I got payed five dollars to mow a yard that I though would cost ten, I may be upset and dissapointed, but I'm damn sure ganna take the money. And when you only have two yards to mow, it's hard to turn down any of them. I watch hoping that maybe, just maybe, I can find the next big superstar that I loved as much as Rock or Austin and it will be that much fun again. The same way I watch any sports matchup, to see the big plays and the big time players that step up and make the game interesting and maybe even historic. You certainitly don't watch for the timeouts or halftime report or (not entirely) the cheerleaders. It has to do with anticipation, expectations, and just wishful thinking.

[djthefunkchris]

I think I react sometimes out of feeling an unfairness told. Alot of times I feel one is getting picked on alot more then they should, and end up sticking up for whichever one it is, reguardless if I like it more or not. Most the times though, it's WWE I'm sticking up for, because they seem to get stomped on the most here. If I watch a show and find it entertained me, I get upset when someone else says it sucked. It might have to them, but I feel that's an unfair comment sometimes, and try to come up with reasonable ways to back it up. I'm not as Bias as I would like to be though. Ussually, after one person points out flaws over one, then comments on how great the other one is... yet it's not, I feel compelled to come back with something good from one, and something just as bad (Ussually worse) then what the opposing poster said. So debate goes on, and no one's point of view is changed, lol.

[flamebrain]

Thanks for the replies, its good to see some level heads :) I think what I'm reaching for is for people to maybe back up their opinions with more than smark rhetoric and sweeping generalisation. All too often I see threads derailed by arguments that wouldn't look amiss at a playground. I'm sure if folks stopped to think before jumping on bandwagons or making cliched statements we might all have [I]interesting[/I] discussions about the industry we all love. :) I can see your point chris, I too find myself defending something not because I particularly love it but because I'm sick of one sided and one dimensional bashing. John Cena springs to mind :D Just as an observation, I notice that those who I consider to be most guilty of the mentioned behaviour are absent from the thread. Which is odd since they also seem to have two cents worth to throw at every topic :p

[djthefunkchris]

I had a similar post a while back (similar to this one). The same was seen there. A few people commented on it, but none of them were actually the one's I was aiming to get opinions from. Perhaps the reason for that is they feel like they are being put on the spot, and might not feel that it's going to be fairly discussed. Maybe they just don't care if it bugs anyone or not. Sometimes I think alot of it has to do with age as well. I forget sometimes the guy I'm debating with might be 12, which if I was to have a discussion with a child about the topic, I would actually answer totally different, alot less debate, alot more "You go boy!". I wouldn't tell a child their favorite wrestling show sucked or wasn't better then the one I prefer... It's just not something I do. My 15 year old son likes some of the stupidest things I have ever seen, but I don't tell him he's stupid for it. He knows I'm not going to watch it with him, but I will take a look at a small part if he's really excited about it, and I will even laugh when I don't want to, to make it better for him. What really dissapoints me at times, is when you stick up for one that's getting bashed, and then someone else comes in to back you up, only... They get way out of controll with it, and you want to jump to the other side all the sudden, lol.

[keefmoon]

I think a lot of what has been said is correct, but I think largely the TNA fans who bash WWE, and the WWE fans bashing TNA is something you should come to expect. It happens with everything sport related where there are fans of each product. Flamebrain, as a fellow Brit I'm sure you're familiar with football (soccer). I'm a huge Southend fan and have travelled all over the country to support them. What I've always found funny is as soon as the initial celebration after scoring occurs, fans automatically turn to the opposition fans and start taunting them about it. There's something very protective about supporting something. Not only do you want whoever you support to look good, you want them to look better than the opposition. That usually resorts to an attitude of "you're ****, we're not". It's not the most sensible or mature of attitudes but I'd say it's pretty natural. Perosnally, from where I sit as a neutral (always have been somehow, was throughout the Monday Night Wars, I think if you can stay neutral you have more to gain) both shows have few redeeming features at the moment. Both seem intent on putting on a bad show to the point where I genuinely can't understand it. Why when Sting was happy to drop the strap to Abyss cleanly, why change it on a crappy, oft forgotten DQ rule? Why the hell have that Donald Trump thing on Raw?! Me no understand.

[flamebrain]

Sadly I do expect it, I just can't abide it :) I don't know if its just me but I just noticed that its gotten significantly worse on here recently. I expect it elsewhere but, generally speaking, I always found these boards much more level headed.

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=flamebrain;188647]Sadly I do expect it, I just can't abide it :) I don't know if its just me but I just noticed that its gotten significantly worse on here recently. I expect it elsewhere but, generally speaking, I always found these boards much more level headed.[/QUOTE] It is worse now than it used to be, I'm sure of that. And worryingly, this forum is still far more level headed than most wrestling ones I've been on, before I got fed up and quit. While this isn't nearly as bad as some of the ones I've seen, but you're right that it has got worse.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I watch WWE because I've basically watched Raw and SmackDown every week since I was seven, and it feels weird not to. I definately don't think it's as bad as people say, but like you said, due to the recent competition of TNA fanboys are bashing WWE rather than praising TNA. The ridiculous thing is, most of those that are bashing are followers, and can't form an opinion of their own. I also try to catch TNA every week, because it is very good in terms of wrestling, and it isn't rare for you to see a good match. When I first watched it I wanted to see what the fuss is about, and I really did like it. The booking is weak, and VKM are ridiculous, but the match quality of TNA's pay per views is double that of WWE's. I like both, and I don't like to bash either, even though both promotions are weak in their own areas. TNA will never be able to replace WWE for me, since I grew up watching it, but I do enjoy watching both.

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=Sensai of Mattitude;188676]I watch WWE because I've basically watched Raw and SmackDown [B]every week since I was seven, and it feels weird not to.[/B] I definately don't think it's as bad as people say, but like you said, due to the recent competition of TNA fanboys are bashing WWE rather than praising TNA. The ridiculous thing is, most of those that are bashing are followers, and can't form an opinion of their own. I also try to catch TNA every week, because it is very good in terms of wrestling, and it isn't rare for you to see a good match. When I first watched it I wanted to see what the fuss is about, and I really did like it. The booking is weak, and VKM are ridiculous, but the match quality of TNA's pay per views is double that of WWE's. I like both, and I don't like to bash either, even though both promotions are weak in their own areas. TNA will never be able to replace WWE for me, [B]since I grew up watching it[/B], but I do enjoy watching both.[/QUOTE] Man I feel old when a 13 year old talks about growing up as if it's something that happened in the past! I'm, ahem, older and I think I'm still growing up. Although maybe that's something that comes with age and experience. I'm not having a go here or trying to be condesending Sensei, far from it, but I'm sure you'll get beyond it feeling weird if you did change your mind, because I was around during the Monday Night Wars, and the prospect of not being able to choose between WWF and WCW every week seemed horrible, but you deal with it. Also, I think it may well be possible that had you experienced the Monday Night Wars first hand you would be a little more disappointed with what's around at the moment, because I personally don't think what's around now is really much worse than the last few years, but a far cry from 97/98 sorta period when anything could happen, and most of the storylines felt original, whether they were or not. But that's just my opinion, and I think to an extent why WWE isn't suffering. As it appeals to a younger audience and the younger audience didn't experience the territories, or the late 90s and therefore have less to compare it by. And I know that there's DVDs and Videos and whatever but you can't tell me experiencing the Hell In The Cell at King Of The Ring 98 after you've seen the footage before every Hell In A Cell match and every "Don't Try This At Home" since is anywhere near watching live and having absolutely no idea what's about to happen.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Oh yeah, I totally understand - but when I was 7 years old I had no idea about anything that had happened before that time, so there was no sense of disappointment in me, and I was just amazed by it. It wasn't until the past few years when I started getting interested in what had happened before I started watching it, and by then I had got into a routine of watching Raw and SmackDown every week. Nowadays, there is disappointment in me that WWE isn't what it used to be, but any time that I've tried to stop watching it I found it hard to not turn over to watch any time it was on. But enough of my life story. Oh, and when I said growing up I didn't mean to imply that I'm fully grown, I just don't think of myself as a kid like it did 7 years ago. :p

[keefmoon]

Okay that's fair enough. Also, sorry if that sounded condesending but as I'm a teacher I find it hard not to be to 13 year olds!!! I can't watch WWE at the moment because it just lets me down so much. I have such great memories of it and they all get tarnished each time I watch what they're offering now. I remember so vividly staying up til 1am to watch No Mercy 1999, and contemplting getting something to eat during the Hardyz vs E&C match because I thought they were just a couple of pretty boy teams who did pretty moves, stayed through it and couldn't believe what I saw. I remember the night before the HIAC at KOTR moaning to a mate that it seemed like a waste of a HIAC match, putting two guys who barely seemed to be feuding at the time in it, then actually yelling "Holy ****!" when Foley got chucked off. It's stuff like that that makes me disappointed with the current product, but I'd never bad-mouth it for the hell of it, nor because I prefer something else. Out of interest Sensei, when in 2000 did you start watching? Random question I know, but I'm interested because that's (very roughly) when I started to watch wrestling less and less.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I remember garnering a bit of interest when my brother was watching Taker's return at Judgment Day, then the first full show I saw was King of the Ring, where The Rock, Taker & Kane vs. Triple H, Shane & Vince headlined for Rocky's title.

[cappyboy]

I could go on a long spiel about this as far as why folks would still watch WWE despite complaining how bad it is. But the three key points I could raise have all been mentioned. Grudge, for example, drove home the disappointment. We all know the line from Spiderman about great power bring great responsibility with it. Same relationship between status and expectation. When you are as big a dog on the block as WWE is on theirs, people naturally expect their shows to be of the absolute highest quality. And when they aren't folks feel let down because the big dog didn't show why he's the big dog. Trashbear's hope point is another good one. I'd better buy into it. I grew up in New England when the Patriots stunk, the Red Sox were cursed, the Bruins were an afterthought and the only decent major league team in the region was the Celtics. Trashbear's point about being there at the bottom so you can brag that you saw the turn-around happen first-hand was how I learned about rooting for sports teams. And Sensai of Mattitude nailed the third one. With all the turnover and the failures in the wrestling business over the last decade, WWE has been the one constant. Whatever else is or isn't available to watch, WWE is always there as a fallback position. Nobody wants to miss a champion becoming legend or the breakout moment that defines some guy's career. So folks wade through a lot of dreck waiting for those ray of sunshine. That way they are able to rhapsodize about their champion the way 80's fans do Ric Flair or 90's fans do Bret Hart and Stone Cold. All in all, just not watching may be the more comfortable option in the short term. But we all want that I knew him when. I saw it happen. You can't imagine the feeling at the time. People don't want to believe they will have to wade through weeks and months and even years of dreck to get those moments. They always want to believe it's right around the corner. So usually it's the deflated, the dispirited. Incidentially I'd say these are also to a degree why folks hang on to TNA when they complain about that company. Because whatever TNA is, they are for many the next best option to keep you afloat when you no longer feel like clinging to WWE for the above reasons. Plus they haven't been around as long as WWE. So for some an immediate turn-around from them may seem more credible. Because there are fewer interests that have gotten entrenched by time than there are with WWE. In the church I attended during high school, we often heard this song called Don't Give Up On The Brink Of A Miracle. That's what many of these unhappy but persistant fans are trying to do. Trying not give up on the brink of wrestling's miracle. And while they can be tiresome to read sometimes, I can necessarily blame them for their blind faith things will improve.

[Grudge]

Yeah the monday night wars were the best it was always hard to choose between the two, one cuts to comercial i'm watching the other, oh no Raw's back on! I loved the Rock and Austin so I never missed them, but I loved miss han**** too.....it was a double edged sword. But WWF had better programming at that time(when I started watching). So that was my wrestling meal ticket. Also to counter the age thing....I wouldn't talk different to any child or teenager or adult that seemed smart enough to comprehend. It really has more to do with mental maturity and respect than age. I would talk the same to a 50yr old if he sounded like he was 9 as I would a 9yr old. I base my conversations on the conversation that is presented. If someone wants to rant like a child, then I'll ignore them or talk to them like a child. But if someone is competent, then talking to them as if they were, no matter how old/young, I think will help them mature and grasp the art of conversation and debate even better.

[Raveneffect21]

I don't watch, I just have a pretty big wrestling dvd collection

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=Grudge;188757]Yeah the monday night wars were the best it was always hard to choose between the two, one cuts to comercial i'm watching the other, oh no Raw's back on! I loved the Rock and Austin so I never missed them, but I loved miss han**** too.....it was a double edged sword. But WWF had better programming at that time(when I started watching). So that was my wrestling meal ticket. Also to counter the age thing....I wouldn't talk different to any child or teenager or adult that seemed smart enough to comprehend. It really has more to do with mental maturity and respect than age. I would talk the same to a 50yr old if he sounded like he was 9 as I would a 9yr old. I base my conversations on the conversation that is presented. If someone wants to rant like a child, then I'll ignore them or talk to them like a child. But if someone is competent, then talking to them as if they were, no matter how old/young, I think will help them mature and grasp the art of conversation and debate even better.[/QUOTE] As I feel this is aimed at me, I feel like I have to respond. I would like to say that Sensei of Mattitude shows great maturity and I wouldn't have had any idea he was that young if he hadn't had said so, and the fact I can have a decent debate with him shows great maturity and sensibility. I apologise to him, and anyone else who didn't like my tone or whatever if I caused offence or upset anyone. I would just like people to bare in mind I spend my life around 13 year old punks who think they know everything there is to know about everything and some (aimed at my students, not Sensei or anyone else on here for the record) are severely attitudenly challenged and see themselves as superior than me. Turning that part of my head off when I'm outside the classroom is tough. I'm sure you've all been to a pub quiz or something similar with a teacher and you've noticed how they always are so sure they're right. It's hard to turn that part of you off. Once again, sorry if I upset anyone or was condesending, and I would like to add that I have great respect for Sensei's maturity, I couldn't have spoken that well amongst adults at his age. :)

[Grudge]

I believe that was unnecisary but endearing. I can't speak for eveyone but I don't think anyone thought that. And believe me I know plenty of people like that and sadly most of them don't mature with age, they just become ****ier. But I am amazed at the respect. I also did not mean to look like I was offended or that any one else should've been. But back on topic....sorry.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=flamebrain;188416]IF (that's if people) WWE is as bad as people say, why do they keep watching and complaining? Shouldn't they just stop watching? IF (that's if people) TNA is as bad as people say, why do they keep watching and complaining? Shouldn't they just stop watching? IF you like TNA and not WWE why aren't you praising TNA instead of bashing WWE? IF you like WWE and not TNA why aren't you praising WWE instead of bashing TNA? IF you like Chikara, where are you? It rules!! :p[/QUOTE] Why does it have to be a zero sum proposition? Why can't you praise TNA and bash WWE then praise WWE and bash TNA as well? [QUOTE=gingarob;188465]I like TNA (less and less since Russo took over) and I don't watch WWE. Personally my favourite promotion is ROH and I'm trying to get into Puroresu much more (awaiting DVD delivery atm)[/QUOTE] Totally agree with this. I'll catch RAW from time to time but it isn't something that's a "must watch" thing for me (far from it, in fact). My favorite promotion is SHIMMER and from that, I often find myself buying ROH DVDs for the SHIMMER Showcase matches, which then clued me in to ROH's product. I attend maybe 40 shows a year (51 in 2006), none of them WWE though I would go to a TNA show. I buy merchandise in bunches (everything SHIMMER has sold, several ROH, a few TNA, etc) but I'm not WWE's target demographic and I accept that. I'm not FIAT's target demographic either (since I'm, oh I dunno, AMERICAN and they don't have a presence here) but I don't bitch about that. [QUOTE=Trashbear;188469]And two answer your last two questions...you can praise both of them and also have negative things to say about both. The WWE gets bashed more though because I think people expect more from them. I mean, TNA is a five year old company that runs one regular venue and gets one hour of TV a week plus one PPV. The WWE has been around since...1963 I think, I'm not sure, is worth more than the Knicks, Mets, and Rangers sports teams combined, and has 5 hours of original programming a week plus at least one PPV. The WWE has been home to some of the greatest moments in pro wrestling. That's why there's so much backlash, they've had such a fall from grace compared to TNA, which really hasn't had its golden age yet.[/QUOTE] Thank you! My point exactly! I think WWE's business model is great but it's too reliant on a strong economy to drive it. In my view, they don't have hardcore fans, the vast majority of their fanbase is of the fairweather variety (or, like Sensai of Mattitude alluded to, people who watch out of habit more than enjoyment). This isn't from a 'watch it on TV' perspective though. This is from driving revenues into the company coffers point of view. TNA does have that grassroots level following as do several of the other indies. I have friends who drove from Toronto to Ohio to catch an ROH show. I know several people who regard themselves as WWE fans and they can't be bothered to attend shows IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD (Madison Square Garden, Nassau Coliseum, Continental Airlines Arena, etc). We get into heated arguments a lot and my one trump card is always, "So, how many shows have you been to this year?" *crickets* I had a client offer me tickets to the Rumble (since his meeting was going to be in Vancouver, not Houston as he expected) and when I put the word out, nobody expressed an interest in them. "How the hell am I supposed to get to Houston?" You know, there's this new contraption they have called an AIRPLANE. :rolleyes: By contrast, I had people asking me if I could get my hands on Bound for Glory tickets (I could, but at $350 a pop). I like TNA's product more than WWE's, mainly because TNA's workers are generally more capable and they don't find themselves handcuffed by the promotion (see: WWE's banning of piledriver type moves (except from 'Taker and Kane) and aerial spots like the shooting star press). I don't think TNA would even consider signing someone like The Great Khali since he can't work a match worth a damn. Few young workers are going to put on 'Match of the Year' candidate matches in WWE whereas outside of the 'E, you see it all the time, relatively speaking. So, I like how the WWE has positioned itself with its shows driving its merchandising machine but I think it's too reliant on a fanbase that is, in my view, terminally unreliable. The music industry is learning now how transient the 'mainstream' audience is while many can point to artists who have built a hardcore fanbase that continues to make them more and more money (see: The Rolling Stones concert figures over the last 10 years), even though they don't move units. I think TNA has at least started to really build that hardcore fanbase and once they get their show to drive revenue to their merchandising, they'll be in a far less precarious position and more prepared for downturns (real or perceived) in the economy. Besides, due to WWE's more widespread exposure, their mistakes are magnified that much more than TNA's. TNA is in the enviable position of being under the radar of most of the market so they can make mistakes without the same level of backlash as WWE, which is how they differ from WCW.

[flamebrain]

[QUOTE=Remianen;188869]Why does it have to be a zero sum proposition? Why can't you praise TNA and bash WWE then praise WWE and bash TNA as well?[/QUOTE] That's my point. I'm not saying it is one or t'other, but the people who prompted me to pose the questions certainly appear to think it is. :) All I see is this is crap and that is crap... I guess that teaches me for posting in the dog pound...

[masterded]

It is all so complicated. I like them both yet loathe them both. I hate the arguments yet I love arguments. Sometime I feel I watch wrestling only because it is what I always did. I probably saw every Raw from the first till the year 2000. Hell I have seen almost every raw almost every Raw after then. Hell I think I have seen every Impact even when it was on Fox Sports. I watch wrestling its what I do. (I wish I watched Smackdown, but it's on Fridays and I have a life) Yet, so much of what I see I don't like. It took me forever to figure out what happen between now and when I truly loved wrestling. The fans voice lost its power. We use to pick the main eventers now they are chosen for us in advance. Austin got where he got because people got behind him. They tried to force the Rock on us and it failed, but when the fans choose to love him he got big. The same goes for HBK, HHH, Mankind, and so on. Sure it was their characters, and their abilities and stories. But, the fans decided that they would be big. Now it feels WWE hires someone and decides they will be the big things in the company. Orton, Batista, and this version of Cena seems to have been forced onto the fans and not picked by them. I say this version of Cena because as a heel he was moving towards that area where fans decided he would be big. This is not a knock to the wrestler or to his fans its just something that pains me to see in wrestling. TNA on the other hand is just to fast for me to enjoy at times. 5 minute matches and countless skits in one hour is a little much for me to truly love. Yet even with the complaints I have I see no reason to attack it or the people who love it I understand them, especially the ones who are attacked for liking a particular wrestler. As I am a huge mark for who might be the most hated man by smarks, Kevin Nash. He has been my favorite wrestler for over ten years now. Though today he is a shadow of his former self, I believe he does not get the respect that he deservers. Besides Kane and Undertaker no big man was a better wrestler then him. Yes I said it Nash was a good wrestler. He might also be the most charismatic wrestler ever. He should be the color guy for TNA. I am also one of the few who looks forward to when HHH gets control of WWE. So one day Nash can be the head booker, or get the onscreen role of an authority figure. I know I said a bunch of random things that have little to do with this topic, so I will try to redeem myself now. The problem is not the arguments its how we all react, its also the fact that we only read what is written. What I am trying to say is it hard to express yourself in writing. I don't know how many times people thought I was mad when that could not be farther from the truth. I think are biggest issue is the limitations of boards. There are no direct responses. Also by the time the original poster responds there may be dozens of points all ranging in how far they go. Here is the one thing I always found funny, are the people that say something sucks and no one should watch it. Either they watch it themselves or they have no idea what they are talking about.

[Trashbear]

Why do the best discussions always happen when I'm away from civilization??? Sorry to post in a topic that seems to have slowed to a halt, but I just would like to wonder aloud...Why don't we get more thoughtful arguments on here? Everyone in this thread has presented lucid and well-formed arguments and opinions and been resepctful to other posters. We should start up more topics and have deep, intellectual conversations. About half-naked men and women pretending to hurt each other (Mick Foley's words, not mine). No but seriously, you guys all seem smart, I'm sure you'd have plenty to say about our favorite topic.