Selling question

[Rey619]

Three times over the past six or seven months now, I've been told that a match suffered for the lack of selling. Two of the matches was between Alicia Strong and Wanda Fish, and one between Strong and J.Ro. All have B- in selling. The common denominator was that all matches were gimmick matches. Ladder Match, Iron Woman and Last Woman Standing. Is this why I get this message? Because of gimmick matches? I'm not complaning overly, since all matches got B ratings.. just wondering..

[wooodaddy]

I asked this about 05' and I think it's their psychology stat.. It's probably not high enough.. are you booking the match w/ a protect or call in ring note? if so, I think this has something to do with it also.. someone please correct me if I'm wrong

[NickC13573]

are you setting a call in ring or a script note. In my experience you need to have the script note for people with little psych.

[Rey619]

They have B-, B and C in psychology. I think I either had the call in ring or all out match.. not sure.. the thing is, whenever I put these in normal matches, I don't get the message at all. And I don't get the message if I put wrestlers with worse psych and selling in matches as well... but these three matches are the only gimmick matches I've had.. maybe AAA doesn't like gimmick matches.... Remiainen... ?

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Rey619;189957]They have B-, B and C in psychology. I think I either had the call in ring or all out match.. not sure.. the thing is, whenever I put these in normal matches, I don't get the message at all. And I don't get the message if I put wrestlers with worse psych and selling in matches as well... but these three matches are the only gimmick matches I've had.. maybe AAA doesn't like gimmick matches.... Remiainen... ?[/QUOTE] It's a 'season to taste' kinda deal. I have a rule that no one can call their own matches unless they have better psych than my road agent. Since most of the time, I have Crippler Ray Kingman or Craig Prince as my RA (and when they get stolen, I'M RA), generally no one can call their own matches during a main show. So the 'call in ring' note is never used. Dark matches are all called in the ring, because they don't matter (I only run them to test chemistry and/or to get workers some in-ring 'practice'). All out match is a bit different. Wanda vs J.Ro or Wanda vs. Strong would probably get it since it's usually the main event match. But, they have to have the skills to really do it well. Chemistry helps in this regard as it helps to cover up any weaknesses the workers may have (at least from what I've seen). But Ladder matches are 'regular' and I don't usually equate regular matches to be 'gimmick matches', in game terms. But non-standard matches often require more in terms of worker skill than other matches. You always need to protect the weaker worker in any and every match to get consistent results. Wanda v. J.Ro - J.Ro gets the protect note, for example. It takes time but it all comes down to being familiar with worker skillsets and their strengths and weaknesses. For example, in any match the Brendon Sisters work, Tracy gets a protect note. Regardless of who they're fighting, she gets a protect note because she's easily the weaker member of that team. Here's how I'd book a Wanda-J.Ro Ladder match: Wanda Fish to win Keep Strong on J.Ro Protect J.Ro Open Match Decisive win Script All Out Match I've seen the 'lack of selling' note several times but I always chalk it up to developing workers.

[Rey619]

Wow.. I've really learned something today then.. I thought the Protect note was only for really poor workers, and that Script was only needed if basics and psychology were really low. I have always used Call in Ring in all of my matches, except main event matches which is All Out Matches.

[the ismailite]

I'd have booked it the same way as Remi except for the decisive win. Somehow, I always feel that booking a win decisively circumvents the "Keep Strong" RA note. Kind of how an "All Out" note can counter a "work the crowd" note. I could definitely be wrong, but it's something I've always thought to be the case. Actually, in hindsight I may have booked it as follows: Wanda Fish to win J-Ro to lose Keep Strong- J-Ro Protect- J-Ro Script All out match Item Retrieval finish

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Rey619;190223]Wow.. I've really learned something today then.. I thought the Protect note was only for really poor workers, and that Script was only needed if basics and psychology were really low. I have always used Call in Ring in all of my matches, except main event matches which is All Out Matches.[/QUOTE] Some folks use the Protect note only for really poor workers. But I generally don't hire really poor workers so I use it for whoever the weakest members of a particular match are. Sometimes I'll hedge a bit and let say a Wanda Fish call her own match, once she gets to B+ psychology. It's a personal thing. I know people who let workers with B- psychology call their own matches. B+ is my absolute minimum and even then I take it on a worker by worker basis. But Call in Ring and 'All Out' are two completely different areas. The counter to 'all out match' is 'work the crowd' while the counter to 'call in ring' is 'script'. But it's also a reason I gave my user character the stats I did. I don't even have to hire a road agent but I do anyway. edit: And yeah ismailite, you are wrong. All 'Decisive Finish' does is make sure the match ends with a pinfall, submission or other decisive end (retrieve item, strip, whatever). As opposed to 'tainted finish' which is like a pin with your feet on the ropes or using a foreign object or a handful of tights and cheap finish which is countout/dq. It's an alternative to choosing 'pinfall finish' or 'submission finish' or whatever. I'm lazy and don't like to have to specify which.

[the ismailite]

[QUOTE=Rey619;190223]Wow.. I've really learned something today then.. I thought the Protect note was only for really poor workers, and that Script was only needed if basics and psychology were really low. I have always used Call in Ring in all of my matches, except main event matches which is All Out Matches.[/QUOTE] Yeah, calling in ring is for workers with VERY good psych! I've always assumed that both workers involved have to have it as well (could be wrong). All out matches encourage the workers to go all out. They work harder to put on a good match. This has nothing to do with Srcipting/call in ring which revolves around the psych stat. If you have a road agent with good Psych (I like B+ or better myself) then script matches so that your RA can play them out/direct them so to speak. Remi said it perfectly. Only call matches in the ring if the workers involved have better Psych skills than your Road Agent. With this in mind, You can still direct your workers to go "all out" regardless of who is calling the match. I go all out on all of my matches (bad advice to be sure) at the risk of injuring my workers. I only ever "work the crowd" in the undercards. From my understanding, it can be a detriment to go "all out", and "work the crowd" in the same match. I know this has nothing to do with your original question, but I figured I could maybe offer some advice in other areas.

[Rey619]

[QUOTE=the ismailite;190237]I know this has nothing to do with your original question, but I figured I could maybe offer some advice in other areas.[/QUOTE] Yeah, definetely.. thanks.. I've been playing for almost two years now with the notion that script/call in-ring/all out was three options on how to call the match.. and that work the crowd and overbook was two options... if you see what I mean... it's not that I have piss-poor matches anyway, as most of my main event matches involving J-Ro, Wanda and Alicia gets B- to B+, but maybe I can improve it even further, as well as undercard matches. Anne Stardust, as I'm using as road agent has only a C in Psych, meaning that they have better Psych than her... I thought Road Agents needed good Respect.. well, Craig Prince is on the way.. didn't find Sugar Ray Kingman...

[Remianen]

CRIPPLER Ray Kingman :p

[Rey619]

[QUOTE=Remianen;190245]CRIPPLER Ray Kingman :p[/QUOTE] Oh.. well, that explains it then... must have confused him with Sugar Ray Leonard.. :rolleyes:

[the ismailite]

[QUOTE=Remianen;190234] edit: And yeah ismailite, you are wrong. All 'Decisive Finish' does is make sure the match ends with a pinfall, submission or other decisive end (retrieve item, strip, whatever). As opposed to 'tainted finish' which is like a pin with your feet on the ropes or using a foreign object or a handful of tights and cheap finish which is countout/dq. It's an alternative to choosing 'pinfall finish' or 'submission finish' or whatever. I'm lazy and don't like to have to specify which.[/QUOTE] You sure about that Remi? I ask not to be argumentative but because I reall don't know. I'm of the frame of mind that Hulk Hogan at the height of his career couldn't be kept strong (no matter how hard one tried) if he was beaten decisively by say... Barry Horrowitz. Now if the finish were tainted or otherwise, perhaps an argument could be made. Is this something that you know to be FACT is what I'm asking I guess. I mean, your explanation/definition of the note is more than logical, but it also only accounts for a percentage of the term "Decisive win" as it applies to wrestling (need clarification on how it applies to the game). Case in point: Booking a cheap finish is not the same as booking a win/loss via DQ. It's one or the other. You don't have the choice any longer after selecting that note. Hence the reason there are options to book endings as such. Booking a Decisive win I'm sure, will give you the appropriate ending to the type of match selected,but if the match is a regular match, could one just book a winner and nothing else and get the same results? Would the results be randomized as long as the selected winner goes over? Would making the win Decisive add more to the actual pinfall if that makes any sense? How is decisive defined in-game anyway? By me, if Shane Helms scores a quick roll up pin on Triple H from behind and at the opening moments of a match, Trips has a case to keep his strength. Yeah, it was a win, but it's questionable as to whether or not Helms can actually beat him. Now if Helms were to hit his Chokeslam on Trips in the middle of the ring and put him out legit, then I'm sure Trips looks bad as it would be construyed as more decisive a vic than the roll up. Eh, I really need to know more about this "Decisive" RA note. Perhaps Adam can chime in on it?

[D-Lyrium]

I'd define a "decisive" win as "the losing wrestler can't possibly argue with it. He lost. Fair and square". It's certainly debateable whether a Shelton Benjamin vs Triple H scenario, ending in a quick rollup for the shock victory, is decisive or not. I'd call that more of a cheap finish though, myself. The finish to the X-Division title match at Final Resolution was similar (Russo only knows one finish to a three-way match, obviously...), and that I'd definately call cheap. But if you think back to John Cena's debut match with Kurt Angle, Cena lost fair and square, but he was definately kept strong! Some rookie just came out of nowhere and almost beat Kurt Angle! Even though the finish was 'Decisive', Cena was still kept (very) strong. So while, yes, sometimes a decisive victory and keeping the loser strong do counteract each other, it's not true in every case.

[the ismailite]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;190253] So while, yes, sometimes a decisive victory and keeping the loser strong do counteract each other, it's not true in every case.[/QUOTE] Oh I agree 100% Which begs the question, how does it apply to the game as indeed it can work both ways. How does TEW define "Decisive win"?

[the ismailite]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;190253]I'd define a "decisive" win as "the losing wrestler can't possibly argue with it. He lost. Fair and square". It's certainly debateable whether a Shelton Benjamin vs Triple H scenario, ending in a quick rollup for the shock victory, is decisive or not. I'd call that more of a cheap finish though, myself. [/QUOTE] It's not a decisive win which was my point with the Helms roll up.;) Arguably, Trips can be kept strong after such an instance. However, can he be kept strong if Helms put on a clinic and then beat him decisively? Perhaps, but it would take a damn good RA, and a hell of a storyline! Edit: Curse you and your editing!!!:D Id' have put this all in one post.

[Moe Hunter]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;190253]I'd define a "decisive" win as "the losing wrestler can't possibly argue with it. He lost. Fair and square". It's certainly debateable whether a Shelton Benjamin vs Triple H scenario, ending in a quick rollup for the shock victory, is decisive or not. I'd call that more of a cheap finish though, myself. [/QUOTE] Well, TEW's definition of Cheap is that it would not result in a Title changing hands if it were on the line. Benjamin didn't even have the tights hooked IIRC, so that's classed as Decisive, even though really it's treated as a Tainted win (arguable, Triple H kept saying he got lucky, could never happen again, etc).

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=the ismailite;190249]I'm of the frame of mind that Hulk Hogan at the height of his career couldn't be kept strong (no matter how hard one tried) if he was beaten decisively by say... Barry Horrowitz. Now if the finish were tainted or otherwise, perhaps an argument could be made.[/QUOTE] The problem here is you're trying to project more than what's there. :p If a Hulk Hogan in his prime was pinned clean or tapped out while fighting Barry Horowitz, yes he'd look really bad. Even if he dominated the majority of the match, you're talking a jobber beating THE main event talent. But for TEW purposes, 'Decisive finish' means pinfall or submission or item retrieval or first blood or whatever is necessary to end the match in decisive fashion so no one can come back and say 'he cheated!'. The handful of tights, foreign object, feet on the ropes, is tainted. Here's an example. Sean McFly vs. Dan Stone Jr. Sean goes over, Dan Jr is kept strong, match rates A*, Dan Jr. GAINS popularity. Without that Keep Strong note, I am convinced the match is likely to have rated lower and Dan Jr is likely to LOSE popularity (even though he lost to a more popular worker). [QUOTE=the ismailite;190249]Case in point: Booking a cheap finish is not the same as booking a win/loss via DQ. It's one or the other. You don't have the choice any longer after selecting that note. Hence the reason there are options to book endings as such.[/QUOTE] If I wanted or needed to book a specific finish, I'd book a specific finish. None of the promotions I've played so far have any tolerance for cheap or tainted finishes (even AAA has Realism at 'Medium') so those haven't even been options for me. So it's either decisive finish or some kinda of draw. It's all the same to me because when I book a 'decisive finish', 9 times out of 10, I know exactly which finish is going to be chosen (look at your workers' finishers). When you're booking 10-15 matches per show (yes, I run long shows), saving 5 seconds per match adds up pretty darn quickly. [QUOTE=the ismailite;190249]Booking a Decisive win I'm sure, will give you the appropriate ending to the type of match selected,but if the match is a regular match, could one just book a winner and nothing else and get the same results? Would the results be randomized as long as the selected winner goes over? Would making the win Decisive add more to the actual pinfall if that makes any sense?[/QUOTE] I think you're getting stuck on semantics. Decisive doesn't mean 'oh, the winner kicked the loser's ass all over the ring!'. All it means is that the match ended in a fashion that left no doubt as to who the winner was. That's all, nothing else. The keep strong note is to ensure the loser isn't completely run roughshod over (at least for me it is). Like D-Lyrium's example of Cena's debut. Angle was a superstar at his peak. NO rookie would be expected to give him a scare like Cena did. As a result of that match, people took notice and that shine helped propel Cena a great deal. That's the point of the 'keep strong' note. I think the only person who can answer your question decisively, is Adam. I've only gone by what the help file says and my experiences in 05 and 07 with the same strategy.

[eayragt]

[QUOTE=Remianen;190274]I think you're getting stuck on semantics. Decisive doesn't mean 'oh, the winner kicked the loser's ass all over the ring!'. All it means is that the match ended in a fashion that left no doubt as to who the winner was. That's all, nothing else.[/QUOTE] I'll chime in and say that Remi's got it absolutely correct. Decisive win is effectively the same as a clean pinfall victory or submission victory. A roll up isn't a tainted win - it's a legitimate wrestling move, therefore is a decisive win. Of course, it is usually combined with at the very least Keep Strong, and possibly Dominate for the opposition. A roll up holding the tights is tainted win. Using the decisive win note has no more affect than saying "It's a clean win, but I can't be bothered to say whether it's a pinfall or submission. Or retrival, entrapment, escape"