Hive

Wait, what... you're offering a calm counter-response that does not bash my opinions in any way? That's a new for internet discussions. But rather refreshing. I definately see your point, except that Kane's career is winding down and Orton is still young and will in all likelyhood by one of the very top dogs of WWE for many years to come. Had this been on any other PPV, I wouldn't have said much about it - but this is WrestleMania. This is the one time per year when WWE catches a much broader viewership than their usual suspect fans, due to it's status and celebrity involvement. So in my opinion, it should be used to promote their franchise players in the eyes of the mainstream casual viewers. Guys such as Orton, Sheamus and Cena (though one could argue that Cena doesn't need it anymore). And that's why I feel that Orton shouldn't be losing to a veteran who doesn't need the rub in an undercard match. I agree that Orton won't lose much in regards to WWE's loyal fanbase, I just feel they missed promoting him to people outside that base. But yes, I'm sure he'll eventually come out victorious in this feud. He got a run with the title last year though, which I saw exactly as a such. But yeah, even though I've never cared much for the Kane character, I agree that Glen Jacobs as a person sounds very likeable. And for a guy his size, he's not at all bad in the ring (though he's no Vader or Bam Bam, but that's another story of course). But I just never cared much for neither him nor his "brother" (as characters only, they both sounds awesome behind the scenes and usually deliver in matches). Either way: I'm not opposed to Kane looking strong and getting a good run, I'm just puzzled as to the timing. I personally don't think anyone can properly fill his boots, to be honest. Not with the status he has obtained over the years. Besides, how many years does Kane have left himself...?

I wasn't exactly overwhelmed by WrestleMania, to be honest. Sheamus vs. Daniel Byan - I expected Sheamus to win, but I also expected that they'd actually let us see a damn match between those two after what happened last year. I fear that this match has damaged Sheamus' position as a top face more than establishing it, as a great deal of the fans now seems to boo him because of it. Both Bryan and Sheamus deserves better, but it was at least the right result. Randy Orton vs. Kane - This is the result that surprised me the most. How could they *not* have Orton win this one? Their second-biggest face (or maybe third now that Punk is so hot) and they have him job to an over-the-hill veteran for no apparant reason at the biggest event of the year? Kane doesn't gain anything from this at this point of his career, it only hurts Orton. Weird. Cody Rhodes vs. The Big Show - I expected Show to win so Rhodes can go on to feud with Sheamus, so not much to say here. Decent but unspectacular match that got the job done. The divas match - Couldn't care less, to be honest. And given that they had a faux-celebrity in it, the result was given in advance as well. Did bring a nice opportunity for a bathroom break though. The Undertaker vs. Triple H - I know lots of people loved both this and their last match, but the matchup just really doesn't do much for me. The match in itself was pretty good, certainly above average. But like last year, I just couldn't get involved in it... perhaps even moreso this year, actually, as it was obvious that if Triple H didn't win last year, he wouldn't win this year either. The match never really left you doubting, and I feel that Shawn Michael's involvement was a bit tacked on didn't do much for the matchup. But, of course, constantly thinking "dammit, this should have been The Undertaker vs. Sting II instead!" didn't help much. I did like it more than what they did last year, however. I just think they should have done this last year instead, and not have repeated it. Also: say what you want about Hogan, but he's a legend who does not deserve to see Triple H no-selling his finisher being used on him. Distasteful when wrestlers crap on other wrestlers' finishers like this. Team Teddy vs. Team Johnny - Decent multi-man match that I had expected earlier on the card (and as an elimination match). I thought Teddy would edge out the win, but couldn't care less overall. The Miz deserved the pin though and his team had overall much more star power and should logically win it. CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho - An above average match, but it left me with a taste of "this could and should have been better" given who was involved. Maybe I just expected too much from a match with these two guys, but that's a testament to my view of their skills more than criticism. John Cena vs. The Rock - Easily the match of the night for me. Did it showcase the best fluent technical chain wrestling of the night? Not by a long shot. But they told a story like few others can and it was an epic moment that reminded me of the match beetween Cena and Punk last year and Hogan vs. The Rock that time in Canada. About last night's RAW... am I the only one who does *not* find it funny or cool that a group of "smarks" ruins the surprise for casual fans by insisting on doing stuff like chanting Brock Lesnar's name before he's "surprise" debuting? They're obviously only doing it to 1) piss off Cena and 2) show the world that they're soooo awesome and in the know because they read dirt sheets before a show.

This is awesome, I can totally relate. It's the only version of the anthem I know as well, and I too enjoy singing it when Germany plays. Just for the hell of it.

This is awesome. So cheesy that one can only love it.

I don't mind the least bit, I think it's great if I have inspired others in some way. I'm very impressed with your advances, keep up the good work.

I haven't given up, I've just put it on temporary hold for the rest of the year. Thanks for the support guys.

It's on hiatus at the moment. I need to be sure in my approach.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>For me (at least until hopefully proven or shown differently), this isn't a game for Green Lantern's, Galactus Herald's, Cosmic beings, or Kryptonians.. but rather more for an upset Hulk level, and everyone below (Fantastic Four, Spiderman, Batman, Most of the Avengers).</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm sadly beginning to think that you guys are perhaps right, which makes me consider whether this mod is worth trying to do at all... I'll have to re-think it.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Pinke" data-cite="Pinke" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Adam has kind of said that the average abilities of heroes etc ... could be set by the person making the database. So if a person wants humans to have a 30 average stat they could, so that Hulk can be 20 times stronger.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's what I have been feeling all along, good to hear that Ryland has even said so himself.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The only major issue I can see with faithfully recreating the Marvel verse ... the game is going to be 10x harder most likely since you only have 10 different levels of popularity.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes and no... most really really powerful beings would be placed in areas where average characters can't (easily) traverse. Like Asgard, hell dimensions, outer space, etc. So they won't risk being ambushed by Thanos every time they go out for the newspaper. </p><p> </p><p> Also, I don't see a steep difficulty curve as a problem but as an interesting challenge and more accurate depiction of the source material. But like I've said before: I want to test this in a mini-world before making anything final. See how it plays out.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's going to make certain regions of that scale into a massive death trap for your average player character. I think popularity will have to be scaled for playability 100% ... ie you don't want anything but a team of heroes tackling the Hulk.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes, certain regions will certainly be death traps... but as I've said before, the worst regions won't easily be accessable for average characters. So it hopefully won't be the biggest of problems.</p><p> </p><p> About Hulk, I'm actually a bit undecided on how to depict him... as the classic green Hulk who's kind of a wildcard but super powerful, and who turns into Bruce Banner every now and then? Or as the clever but less strong and mostly Banner-free grey Hulk? Or as the fusion between Hulk and Banner that, iirc, was introduced around this period as well? I'm currently leaning towards the latter, though I'm aware the former is of course much more iconic...</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Right, and I am offering an alternative by suggesting that maybe you should adapt your mod to the game you are trying to incorporate it into. But whatever, don't think I'm telling you you can't do it your way. If you find some way to reverse engineer data that plays the way it's supposed to, more power to you.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> With all due respect, I don't feel that you are offering an alternative as much as just critisizing what I have. How exactly would you handle the stats you don't think I can just carry over from the MRPG, such as strength?</p><p> </p><p> Also, I disagree with the notion that any mod for the game HAS to be play out exactly like the default database. But that's an age-old discussion present in eg. TEW modding as well.</p><p> </p><p> I did actually at one point decide to use the characters who are equivalents of Marvel heroes/villains in the default database as templates and go from there. But after bringing in Xtinction, whom I see as being 95 % Deadpool and intending to use him as such, I simply felt his stats were waaaay too high. I mean, he has 3 stats at 700 or above and 3 more at 600 or above... and this is a character I wouldn't personally rate as much more than 'average'.</p><p> </p><p> The way I see it, the default database is built to be a balanced game where most people wouldn't just outright get slaughtered in battle no matter what kind of opponent they face and where all characters are playable. And I totally get the reasoning behind that, but it's just not how I see the Marvel Universe or wish to play it.</p>

<p>The thing just is that I see rather "average" characters in the default database having quite high stats, making the gap from average to the highest level much less severe than what I feel is the case in the Marvel Universe. I *want* the jump from a common thug to Galactus to be <span style="font-size:18px;">huge</span>.</p><p> </p><p> To me, it doesn't matter if the equivalent of Aunt May in the InfinityVerse can kick Doctor Octopus in my mod's arse 10 out of 10 times - because the Aunt May equivalent of the InfinityVerse won't be in my mod, my own Aunt May will be. And she'll be much, much weaker in comparison. Everything is relative.</p><p> </p><p> But of course, it may turn out that the mod won't play and balance well if I do it this way... but that's why I first want to test a small portion of it in a controlled environment before doing the entire Marvel Universe this way, as an experiment.</p><p> </p><p> Again, I'm not saying my solution is nowhere near perfect - but as long as noone is offering an alternative and only telling me that I simply can't do it my way, that's how I'll do it. At least for a trial run.</p><p> </p><p> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate critique and inputs... it's just that I need a system of sorts for this, and if not the one I proposed, I need something better to go from.</p>

I see your points, but the MRPG is still the best source of fairly balanced stats I can think of. And unlike wrestling, I can't just watch some matches on youtube to determine what kind of skills a guy has... and I have to work off <em>something</em>. So while I agree that this solution is not perfect, I still think it makes for a good basis that can undergo tests and scrutiny and then be tweaked as necessary. I currently can't think of a better way, personally. But I'd love to be enlightened.

The way the editor describes the two, agility is for dodging long-range attacks while reactions is for dodging close-range attacks. I would personally just have had one single stat for both combined, and I think they are very similar. You could be right about this one. I'm a bit undecided. Using the MRPG, the universe will definately turn out much different from the default database. But I'm not fully convinced that has to be a bad thing, I'm looking to do some tests when there's enough characters in for a such. According to the MRPG site though, 'unearthly' is 100 - which would then be 1000 in CBH.

<p>I did a little conversion chart for anyone who wants to help out with this mod. I'm not saying it's set in stone and I'm certainly open for tweaks to this chart, but I think it's nice to have a common framework for balance purposes:</p><p> </p><p> Marvel RPG --> Comic Book Hero</p><p> </p><p> (All MRPG stats multiplied by 10 for CBH conversion)</p><p> </p><p> Agility --> Agility</p><p> Strength --> Strength</p><p> Endurance --> Endurance</p><p> Reason --> Reasoning</p><p> Intuition --> Cunning</p><p> Psyche --> Willpower</p><p> Agility +/- 50-150, depending on whether he's a melee og long range fighter --> Reactions</p><p> (Strength+Endurance)/2 --> Tougness</p><p> (Endurance+Fighting)/2 --> Stamina</p><p> Stamina +/- 1-200 --> Recovery</p><p> ??? (case by case measurement) --> Technological</p><p> </p><p> Thoughts?</p>

I have enough info for a single location, nothing else really. But I don't see it as a major problem, not all dimensions needs to be equally fleshed-out imo. And I think it would be a huge shame not to include Bishop and his timeline at all. As I see it, Earth-616 is the "main" game - and everything else is just a bonus.

<p>Here's a list of the dimensions I currently have in the mod, just to show how I'm doing it:</p><p> </p><p> Earth-616 (Primary Dimension)</p><p> Earth-1191 (Bishops future)</p><p> Earth-295 (Age of Apocalypse)</p><p> Earth-811 (Days of Future Past)</p><p> Earth-9200 (Maestro's Dimension)</p><p> Earth-928 (2099)</p><p> The Void ***this one has no "Earth-xxx" designation that I could find</p><p> </p><p> Of course, all the alternate dimensions won't be nearly as fleshed out as the main dimension - but I am certain that they will all add a great deal of flavor and excitement.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheSeanAlfe" data-cite="TheSeanAlfe" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So when you're making a database, it's better to think of it as that character's "Level." Galactus, for instance, is Iconic, even though he's not that popular in real life. Dr. Doom, despite being an "iconic villain," definitely wouldn't be "Iconic" level. He's just not on the same level as Galactus.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's my viewpoint as well.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just my understanding if it. Sorry to intrude.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You're not intruding, I value all input on. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Now the Avengers could be iconic level (I'd still say that's probably too high) and they would draw major threats on team missions to simulate the Avengers actually taking on world level threats, but Cap and Iron Man on their own are almost never working on that level.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's the thing: Captain America, Thor, Iron Man... yes, they all often participated in key roles in major events against major foes - but not <em>alone</em>. They did so as part of a team, and the way I see a team like The Avengers or Fantastic Four, they can and should have higher reputation than their individual members. I see The Avengers at 'legendary', personally.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think the other point I'm trying to make here is: Popularity isn't -just- power levels. Atributtes and Powers are really important. Popularity should help you pair certain heroes to certain villains.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I completely agree, and that's why I don't want to see the game pitching a guy like Captain America against Thanos and Galactus one on one, but only as part of a team.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Anyway, Hive, any chance on getting what you've been working on so far? A "beta" or "Pre-release" perhaps?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I haven't really added more than 4 characters and a bunch of A/T/D stuff so far, as I've been researching and thinking about issues such as stats, powers and popularity. But I'll see if I can get some work done on it over the weekend.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="James Casey" data-cite="James Casey" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's my two pennorth - hope it helps.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You and I seem to pretty much share the same views on the matter. Cheers. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

<p>I think you're being unnecessarily rude and condescending here, so I'm gonna stop discussing this issue with you. There's really no reason for such behaviour in a discussion about comic book characters.</p><p> </p><p> I have, however, dug up some comments from Ryland on popularity that might wisen up us all:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Popularity will be addressed in Monday's entry; the short version is that it has nothing to do with how well the character is known within the game world, it's how well they are known to comic book fans - the former wouldn't make any sense, as it would mean anyone who works underground would be easily beatable.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> and</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Finally, it should be noted that the popularity of characters (and therefore their number of rolls) is not about the real-life sales of their comic books or how many issues they appear in. As you can see from the above, it's more of a broad term for their place within their respective comic book world, and so any good database maker will be tweaking the popularity to achieve the correct results within the game, not slavishly trying to measure it by sales figures.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm still undecided on just what to do about popularity.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KColl" data-cite="KColl" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So Thor hasn't had dozens of adventures in space with the Avengers?<p> </p><p> Far better known character.</p><p> </p><p> Popularity isn't popularity per sae, it's how well-known a char is to a) the world in general and b) the other metas specifically. For example, someone like say Captain America is very iconic, one of the world's most recognisble figures and a leader of the Avengers despite being relatively un-powered.</p><p> </p><p> While by comparison, Blue Marvel (not a 90s char but the best example I can think of), is up there with Thor, Superman etc., but doesn't mean spit as regards being recognised.</p><p> </p><p> Power <> Popularity.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So you want to make Captain American either iconic or legendary? That could potentially see him go up against a guy like Thanos 1 on 1... that's not right to me.</p><p> </p><p> Maybe the perfect solution is mixing popularity and power when deciding ingame popularity, it's just hard to find a consistent formula for that...</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KColl" data-cite="KColl" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Doesn't look right to me at all, sorry. But I'd be basing popularity on nothing to do with their power levels, it's how they're viewed by their fellow heroes and the populace of the world in general.<p> </p><p> For example, Beta Ray & Thor are roughly the same power. And yet, Beta Ray is far less well known in general than Thor. You're not suggesting because their power levels are similar they should have the same popularity are you????</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I see your point, but then again I think this whole "popularity" thing is a bit skewed and hard to judge... first of all, none of the villains can be said to be "popular" at all - they are feared. Secondly, popular <em>where</em>...? On earth? If so, then yes, Thor is certainly FAR more popular than Beta Ray Bill. In fact, Beta Ray Bill would have to be very low on the list. Who on earth knows much about him? But then Thor would be able to pretty much kick his ass all the time with little effort, due to the advantages given by having a high popularity, which just wouldn't be right - since, as you said yourself, they have the same powers.</p><p> </p><p> Also, why should earth necessarily be the template for popularity? I'm sure Beta Ray Bill is probably better-known than Thor in many parts of Cosmic Marvel. And take Spider-Man, a far more popular character than a basically unknown such as Gladiator from the Shiar Imperial Guard. But should Spider-Man then get a lot more rolls than him and thus be able to best him in combat? I really don't think so, no...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Also, since popularity is used to determine who the characters/teams are likely to face (as I understand it), power levels should definately be taken into consideration imo.</p>

I found a couple of other sources that might be helpful, based on Marvel's very own (but limited in scope) classification system: http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids And here, a handy list of everyone falling into every level in each cathegory: http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid Also, I was thinking about popularity... maybe one should simply more or less ignore the "popularity" sound to it, and for the most part just base it on power levels? Except maybe for characters who may be powerful in 1991 but are not yet very well-known. Especially legendary and iconic characters should be limited (although not to as few as in the default database, on the grounds that the Marvel Universe is a lot bigger). I'm thinking something like this: Iconic characters: Only the very strongest characters in the entire universe... like: Galactus, Thanos, The Beyonder, Phoenix, etc. Legendary characters: Characters who on their own can be a major threat to most worlds when really p-ed off, but rarely threats to the entire universe as above... like: Silver Surfer, Hulk, Apocalypse, etc. Major league: Important and well-known characters who may be close to legendary characters but not quite there. These are the top of the crop of the earth-born heroes and villains with a few legendary exceptions... like: Professor X, Thor, Magneto (or should he be legendary...? I'm undecided), Dr. Strange, Iron-Man, Captain America (mostly due to status, not powers), etc. Renowned: Big characters who are not quite major league... like Spider-Man, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, etc. ...and so on. Thoughts? Comments? Critique?

<p>The thing just is that the InfinityVerse is much more geared towards an Earth-focus, where the earth heroes are the top of the crop, than the Marvel-universe. And I don't feel that just because several humans can have maxed out reason in the default database, they should in a mod as well.</p><p> </p><p> I fully understand the logic behind looking towards the default database as a template for balance reasons; however, I also feel that making a mod exactly like the default database, just with other names, is completely redundant.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ah, Hive. I kind of found around that, and re-edited my post, lol!!!!<p> </p><p> That new question still fits.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Ah yes, didn't notice the edit... well I definately agree with you that it's a bit low. But as long as we're consistent, I'm not sure it'll be a huge issue. And besides... humans shouldn't really be the top of the crop in any stat, I'd say.</p><p> </p><p> But yeah, the rpg stats are certainly not perfect for this purpose. If anyone have alternatives, I'm certainly all ears.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm looking at the Classic RPG, and that's really helpful, but I'm just curious about the conversion. <p> </p><p> For example: I'm looking at Spiderman:</p><p> </p><p> Fighting: Remarkable</p><p> Agility: Amazing</p><p> Strength: Incredible...</p><p> </p><p> What's better? How does it relate? How does it translate to 1 to 1000?</p><p> </p><p> What are you guys using for a basis?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Take a look at the benchmark page, which I also linked to. It ranks the stats from 1-100, and then it's just a question of adding a zero.</p>