Backlash Spoiler Alert- Do Not Read If You Don't Want To Know Results

[Sensai of Mattitude]

lol, what I really don't get is that the whole point in Lashley wrestling Umaga at WrestleMania was that Vince was supposedly told to never wrestle again, yet now he's a World Champion. Obviously, that isn't a legitimate reason, but WWE could at least make the base of the storyline something that they can stick to.

[Guest Ransik]

You know, you're absolutely right. Gotta love it. :D

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Ransik;229333] And I don't get how people are STILL going on with the "Cena is invincible" garbage. His win last night was a fluke. If HBK could've made the cover... HE would've been the WWE Champion. [/QUOTE] Ahh yes, but he still won didn't he? :) does superman occasionally take an ass kicking? yes, is he still invincible? yes! Perhaps its the part of me that loves to back an underdog that hates this push, but i know full well that there is something wrong with either Cena's push or his gimmick because in 50% of the venues he plays he gets boo'ed and when your supposed to be the companys top face thats not a good thing!

[wooodaddy]

I believe that HBK will win the belt and just in time for HHH's return in which he will then become lustful of the belt his best friend has and then turn on HBK eventually and set up the classic HBK and HHH feud one more time, just watch, it will happen, I gots me a gut feeling...

[wooodaddy]

Paul Heyman will make his return on down the line and challenge Vince for the ECW title at the next ECW PPV and then win it back from Vince w/ help from the originals and then set up a 4 on 4 winner takes the ECW title against the new breed, in which CM Punk will finally decide who he is teaming with as he screws the other team and becomes the new "real" ECW champ.. come on he has to, he's really over right now!!

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=panix04;229341]Ahh yes, but he still won didn't he? :) does superman occasionally take an ass kicking? yes, is he still invincible? yes! Perhaps its the part of me that loves to back an underdog that hates this push, but i know full well that there is something wrong with either Cena's push or his gimmick because in 50% of the venues he plays he gets boo'ed and when your supposed to be the companys top face thats not a good thing![/QUOTE] It's not up to Cena how he gets booked... so I just laugh at the childishness when people seem to think it's Cena himself doing all this. If people want to complain about the "invincible push" there's a few people to blame... Cena is NOT one of them. I remember when HBK was on a 9 month reign as WWF Champ in 1996 and couldn't be beaten... even by a guy twice his size (Vader.) And I could go on and on...

[djthefunkchris]

Here is an link to an old [URL="http://www.wrestlingtruth.com/wwe_tv_script.php"]Script.[/URL] If anyone wants to check it out... Personally, I think our Diary Writer's here are alot better, lol. EDIT: Actually, it's for Jim Ross, you can see notes to him on it, where he should talk about this and that.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=panix04;229341]Ahh yes, but he still won didn't he? :) does superman occasionally take an ass kicking? yes, is he still invincible? yes! Perhaps its the part of me that loves to back an underdog that hates this push, but i know full well that there is something wrong with either Cena's push or his gimmick because in 50% of the venues he plays he gets boo'ed and when your supposed to be the companys top face thats not a good thing![/QUOTE] No. I still don't think that's a bad thing. Your job as a wrestler is to get a response from the crowd. He's not getting Jeff Jarrett heat where people are turning off their TVs to avoid him. He's still driving the ratings. He still creates good buy rates. He's still the top mover of merchandise. It may confuse viewers somewhat, and down the road [B]maybe [/B]its harder to get a heel over with Cena's mixed reactions (although I'm starting to believe that whoever it is that finally beats Uber-Cena will be ridiculously over, regardless of heel or face), and I can certainly see the POV that the storyline is tiresome...[b]but there is not a single reason from a business stand point why John Cena's superhuman push is a bad idea. [/b]

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=Ransik;229355]It's not up to Cena how he gets booked... so I just laugh at the childishness when people seem to think it's Cena himself doing all this. If people want to complain about the "invincible push" there's a few people to blame... Cena is NOT one of them. I remember when HBK was on a 9 month reign as WWF Champ in 1996 and couldn't be beaten... even by a guy twice his size (Vader.) And I could go on and on...[/QUOTE] Hogan was unbeatable for four years...Stone Cold went @ 18 months without losing cleanly...etc.

[djthefunkchris]

Didn't Cena just lose cleanly to HBK one week and one day ago?

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229324]Put yourself in the writers position.... Just for a second here: When McMahan is on, ratings go up (ECW ratings went up anytime it was known Vince would be on). They are the number one show on Sci-Fi, but they want to be closer to Smackdown ratings with the show, then what they are. The Channel has enough viewer's to do that, so they want it. Now, with these "facts" on the plate, how would you right it in for Vince to start making frequent, or maybe even outright full time, visits on ECW? He has to have a reason, that's part of the whole reason for writers. Vince loves performing, but doesn't want to be too physical anymore.... So bring in more, let Vince finish it and there you go... Presto, Instant reason for Vince to be on ECW. They could have done other things, but it's been proven that Vince Feuds work. This is what they wanted for ECW in the first place (in a round-a-bout way), when Nick Foley wanted Vince to get physical for the show. They liked his idea, just not the guy Foley wanted to use for it. So it looks like Lashley is the guy (Looks, it might not be him though, it might turn into RVD, or CM Punk, who knows, now that Vince has the title, it has many possibilities). Anyways, either way... Whomever confronts Vince will become an everyday name in wrestling... SO it will help someone. [/QUOTE] Here's the thing: ECW had a devoted fanbase. That fanbase made Rise + Fall one of the best selling DVDs in company history, with little to no marketing by the E upon initial release. That fanbase made ONS and ONS 2 surprisingly successful PPVs. That fanbase made ECW on SciFi an instant hit with great ratings (people remember that the show averaged in the mid 2's for the first 6 weeks, right?) Your point would make more sense chris if the E were starting this brand from scratch. The WWE really just had to find a way to get that fanbase to buy into a new product while attracting some if not most of the mainstream WWE fans. But they didn't; they pissed off the hardcore fans and alienated even the most devoted followers to the point that December to Dismember did less than half the buys the ONS did, and basically created a situtation where they now have to start from scratch with a proven moneymaker that fell into their laps. Vince pops ratings doesn't make sense since the bump in ratings is still not equal to the ratings ECW had when the show debuted. I don't know how it happened, and some of the blame falls on RVD and Sabu's legal problems and Angle leaving the company, but the booking over-all went to sh*t, the new faces they were trying to get over were nowhere near as entertaining as the E thought they were, and even though ECW is putting on fairly decent shows at the moment it's too little too late because you've already cut off your core audience. I guess what I'm saying is that, while your concept is sound, if the WWE hadn't screwed things up so badly in the first place, then they wouldn't need Vince to come in to "Create" stars. They had stars in place. And essentially flushed them down the toilet.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229374]Didn't Cena just lose cleanly to HBK one week and one day ago?[/QUOTE] How dare you bring logic into a bashing Cena talk

[Guest Ransik]

Yup, but it doesn't mean a thing to those people that have to bash on Cena constantly... cause it hurts their entire arguments.

[keefmoon]

Just want to point out that I never said Cena has booked himself to keep the title or anything even remotely that absurd. I've grown tired of his constant presence at the top of the card. His gimmick is stale and while he's having solid matches to good at the moment it doesn't stop me getting frustrated that he is being given such a huge push that I don't think he has warranted. Aside from merchandise sales, he has offered very little in the last two years, in my opinion. And yes I know the E cares a great deal about merchandise but I personally like to see more in a champion than being able to sell a t-shirt. The people you mentioned who had long title reigns are very valid, but still very different from Cena. All three were connecting far better with the fans than Cena is. I stand by both things I said- a 60 something year old businessman winning the ECW World Title made me genuine stop watching the event, and I'm sick of Cena's title reign. Both my opinion and down to my own personal tatse, but I happen to like watching talented wrestlers when watching wrestling. As for ECW, they tried to market it to the mainstream, but didn't want to put too much in to it in case it didn't work. The result? They've alienated both ECW's old fans and the WWE mainstream fans too.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;229370]No. I still don't think that's a bad thing. Your job as a wrestler is to get a response from the crowd. He's not getting Jeff Jarrett heat where people are turning off their TVs to avoid him. He's still driving the ratings. He still creates good buy rates. He's still the top mover of merchandise. It may confuse viewers somewhat, and down the road [B]maybe [/B]its harder to get a heel over with Cena's mixed reactions (although I'm starting to believe that whoever it is that finally beats Uber-Cena will be ridiculously over, regardless of heel or face), and I can certainly see the POV that the storyline is tiresome...[b]but there is not a single reason from a business stand point why John Cena's superhuman push is a bad idea. [/b][/QUOTE] all very true, but i am not looking at Cena from a money perspective, i'm viewing his run through the eyes of a wrestling critic. Tom Cruise has been in some extremely popular films, but most of his films get heavily panned by critics, mostly because the guy can't really play any other characters! Sure War the worlds and MI3 made the film companys crap loads of money, but there are always going to be people who look at the actual peformance instead of admiring the special effects! That being said, in this instance i don't really think its Cena's fault he's just doing his job, i just think the WWE are using him wrong. [QUOTE]It's not up to Cena how he gets booked... so I just laugh at the childishness when people seem to think it's Cena himself doing all this. If people want to complain about the "invincible push" there's a few people to blame... Cena is NOT one of them. I remember when HBK was on a 9 month reign as WWF Champ in 1996 and couldn't be beaten... even by a guy twice his size (Vader.) And I could go on and on...[/QUOTE] I never claimed it was up to Cena how he gets booked, sorry if i gave that impression, i don't really have a problem with Cena and if the WWE takes there foot off the pedal of the push for a while i think he could be massive, especially if he keeps getting put in the ring with workers as good as HBK. I never really liked Sean Michaels but i have to concede that his match's are very, very good! Just to emphasize my point that im not just bashing Cena, i cheered like a mofo when Cena came out to the ring when i saw the WWE at Butlins last year!

[djthefunkchris]

Aye, but I bring that up for a reason, and it's not to discredit them.... There is something "Else" about Cena. He could lose four weeks in a row cleanly to four different people, then go win at a PPV, and everyone would still say something about the "Superman" effect. Just like I feel that the Lashley match, It's not going to matter if Cena wins or loss's... He is going to be talked about....... I don't understand why either.... He's not the worse guy to get to his position, not by far. He's not the best, not by far. He's kind of in the middle of people we would think of as great ones I guess... far as skillwise, in or out of the ring. I don't know exactly what it is, but to see the guy that sometimes gets boo'd the most, also selling the most merchandice... I think it's almost good.... I mean, He's a face that anytime he goes against ANYONE that is even close to his status, or popularity, or just someone that's been around forever, he gets boo'd. He's been boo'd against Edge (I've heard recently again, that if he can stay active long enough-not getting hurt-He's one of the guys they have HUGE plans for), Triple H, HBK, I think he's been boo'd against Umaga before too... Just weird as heck for someone that is so popular. So.... Here is my theory. Cena's popularity is mainly with a pretty young crowd (lets say 16 and under). Kids that want a Cena action figure, lol. So who else would like Cena? The Mother's, right? Cena makes their kid happy, so they like him, kind of like they like Spongebob. They buy his stuff for their kids. That's just part of it though. The other part is it seems to me, even with the movie flop (kind of a flop anyways), that he is more popular OUTSIDE of the Wrestling world... The mixed reactions at wrestlemania... Looked like people didn't know if they should Boo or Cheer for him... The mixed Crowd period at Wrestlemania (meaning, non-wrestling followers, casual types), is what I think were actually cheering him... People that don't really watch WWE television outside of a few exceptions during the year. What is the term... Smarks? Smarks hate Cena, because it's the thing to do I guess... Nothing I hear gives a legitimate reason to bash him. He's no worse, and even somewhat better then alot of the people they would pick over him.

[PeterHilton]

[U]To speak to keefmoons' point[/U]: I appreciate your opinion. But John Cena is the biggest draw in the US. That means he's offered up quite a bit. And to his credit his ringwork is actually improving. Unless the WWE failt to use him to create any more stars down the road he is literally doing EVERYTHING you can objectively ask of a main event star. [u]To panix:[/u] Nobody takes movie critics seriously either. Honeslty, as log as he is making "crap loads of money" the WWE would be idiotic to make wholesale changes to the Cena character. [QUOTE=djthefunkchris]What is the term... Smarks? Smarks hate Cena, because it's the thing to do I guess... Nothing I hear gives a legitimate reason to bash him. He's no worse, and even somewhat better then alot of the people they would pick over him[/QUOTE] Which is why "smarks" in general should be ignored. Everyone has the right to their opinion but a lot of internet fans never try to think beyond their own biases. Not talking about the guys posting in here...hope it doesn't come off that way. Just a little frustrating that in every board in every site, every single piece of WWE related new gets twisted into an anti-WWE post.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229387]What is the term... Smarks? Smarks hate Cena, because it's the thing to do I guess... Nothing I hear gives a legitimate reason to bash him. He's no worse, and even somewhat better then alot of the people they would pick over him.[/QUOTE] Exactly, and then 80% of the wrestling community know no better than to agree and boo along. If it weren't for the smarks, John Cena would still be one of the most cheered in the WWE.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=Sensai of Mattitude;229398]Exactly, and then 80% of the wrestling community know no better than to agree and boo along. If it weren't for the smarks, John Cena would still be one of the most cheered in the WWE.[/QUOTE] Wellllll....let's not get crazy. His character is tiresome and the whole "milk and cookies, cheesy marine salute" can be very irritating. I don't think he's anywhere near as entertaining now as he was as a heel or even as a sh*t-talking face, and that kind of character is bound to have its detractors, especially nowadays. He's nice to the point of nausea. But even not liking the character, I can objectively see WHY he's getting the push he gets.

[keefmoon]

My issue is with Cena holding the title for so long. He has been non-stop in the World Title picture since Wrestlemania 21. The guy makes money, and gets a better pop than most people on the roster, so yes he should be a main eventer. But I still ifnd it boring, his gimmick is stale and he hasn't warranted being the champion or challenger non-stop for 2 years. Even if he had a break for a few months where he had a storyline that didn't involve the WWE Title it would freshen things up. But instead he keeps rolling on with the gold. As for the smarks, I don't think they neccessarily hate Cena because that's the cool thing to do. I'm sure many do, but part of the reason could be that they just don't like him. I wouldn't say I'm a smark but I don't like the guy because nothing about him makes me want to watch him. I loved him when he did the rapping. Now everytime I see him I want to switch over because he just bores me (the Raw main event aside). He makes money because he appeals to the younger audience and has loads of "cool" catchphrases. But that doesn't mean I have to like him. [QUOTE]There is something "Else" about Cena. He could lose four weeks in a row cleanly to four different people, then go win at a PPV, and everyone would still say something about the "Superman" effect.[/QUOTE] He has been champion for roughly 20 months out of the last 24. And while he hasn't champion, he was the challenger. That's why people say all this "superman" stuff.

[panix04]

[QUOTE]He has been champion for roughly 20 months out of the last 24. And while he hasn't champion, he was the challenger. That's why people say all this "superman" stuff.[/QUOTE] you make a good point, but Christopher Reeves had the Superman Gimmick for years and he never got boo'ed. I just think that good old Mr Reeve's was better at it! :D

[PeterHilton]

The problem with Vince and the WWE (and wrestling promoters in general) is that they are not, ny nature, forward thinkers. They don't anticipate changes in their audience or popular culture. Basically, "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Or as Bret Hart put it, "you ride a horse til it falls over then you shoot it." So while the more dedicated or attentive fans will start to complain first, promoters won't do a damn thing to adjust their product until "money" forces them to. Vince has gone on the reord as saying he would never have brought in the Attitude Era if business didn't dictate it; he would've been quite happy running goofy cartoonish 80s wrestling shows forever as loing as the fans kept on showing up to the arena. John Cena, in his present incarnation, won't be changed, won't be freshened up, won't turn heel, won't "anything" (no matter how much net fans complain) as long as he's making money for the company.

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah, I've boo'd him at home just as much as anyone... I'm not saying I don't like him, but I feel that the whole Salute thing should be left up to "real" soldiers, not "pretend" ones. So THAT in particular is sickening to me... I do like him though, or at least appreciate him genuinely.... For all the reasons that PeterHilton brings to the table. He gives about 110% to be honest, if not more... and that is comparing him to anyone really. To be honest, There is alot of WWE people I have alot of respect for, because of the same reason... Flair, Undertaker... Lord Knows a good movie starring the Undertaker... I just don't know, lol. Two people that have definately "payed" their dues, and have nothing else to proove. They could easily do something alot less harsh on them... Flair especially, wouldn't even have to leave the WWE, just sit down at ringside and he would be a most welcome commentator.

[PeterHilton]

Ric has to wrestle to pay off the IRS and because of his divorce settlement. With the size of his debt he may be in the ring until he's 70.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;229406]Ric has to wrestle to pay off the IRS and because of his divorce settlement. With the size of his debt he may be in the ring until he's 70.[/QUOTE] I think eventually he will take up a backstage role to be honest, possibly a road agent ala Arn Anderson. He should hang up the tights soon though or he will risk tarnishing his legacy!