Backlash Spoiler Alert- Do Not Read If You Don't Want To Know Results

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=keefmoon;229401]My issue is with Cena holding the title for so long. He has been non-stop in the World Title picture since Wrestlemania 21. The guy makes money, and gets a better pop than most people on the roster, so yes he should be a main eventer. But I still ifnd it boring, his gimmick is stale and he hasn't warranted being the champion or challenger non-stop for 2 years. Even if he had a break for a few months where he had a storyline that didn't involve the WWE Title it would freshen things up. But instead he keeps rolling on with the gold. As for the smarks, I don't think they neccessarily hate Cena because that's the cool thing to do. I'm sure many do, but part of the reason could be that they just don't like him. I wouldn't say I'm a smark but I don't like the guy because nothing about him makes me want to watch him. I loved him when he did the rapping. Now everytime I see him I want to switch over because he just bores me (the Raw main event aside). He makes money because he appeals to the younger audience and has loads of "cool" catchphrases. But that doesn't mean I have to like him. He has been champion for roughly 20 months out of the last 24. And while he hasn't champion, he was the challenger. That's why people say all this "superman" stuff.[/QUOTE] No, I don't expect you to like him, and my statement wasn't meant for you... at least not the Smarks point.. I don't really consider you a Smark, because a normal smark would have changed their viewpoint by now, and you stand your ground, so your position is solid in my eyes. I still stand by my Smark position though. To me Smarks seem to think they are smarter then the company's they are watching. These same people criticized the WWE for NOT pushing Cena before... Now that the WWE is pushing them, the cool thing is to complain about the push. They won't ever be satisfied, because it's the WWE, and they are smarter then the WWE... and everything they say is good should be the number one show, not the WWE's products.... People just watch the WWE because we are all following the flock.... Actually, in my eyes the smarks follow the flock... They grope at what one person say's, or a group of individuals, and like a flock, they back them up..... right or wrong. Peter was right in assuming I meant from other forums, not this one. I have felt pretty good about the layout of how people think here (far as wrestling), and the debates are always in a way refreshing. I can appreciate your points of view because I feel they are genuine, and not just sheep herding (if you get my drift). You may say stuff I see on other forums, but I believe you when you say this is how YOU feel... You said it right after the dang show was over, lol... The difference is, when visiting other forums you will here the same thing echo'd by hundreds because they heard someone they think is right say the same thing. I don't know if you get what I'm saying or not, but I am still typing and debating... If I thought you didn't have anything to say worthwhile, I wouldn't be quoting and debating with you.

[panix04]

having been reading Keefmoons diary i can say with some confidence that his booking skills exceed that of the WWE's! :D

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=panix04;229409]I think eventually he will take up a backstage role to be honest, possibly a road agent ala Arn Anderson. He should hang up the tights soon though or he will risk tarnishing his legacy![/QUOTE] As of October 2006, he still owed the IRS more than a million dollars in back taxes, was having his wages garnished, and had to pay his ex-wife 20 K a month in spusal support. He's got bigger things than his legacy to worry about.

[infinitywpi]

There is a reason why Cena gets the push he does. A very good reason, actually. Someone had to get it. Look at the WWE's recent history. Who are your best choices for Champ? They're all either injured or it wouldn't be their first time around. WWE needed someone recognizable to carry the title, and they needed to be -fresh-. They wanted someone who could be a new name, who they could try to build the future on instead of just rehashing the past. And they needed someone who had a good chance of being a mainstream name, not just a wrestling name. Cena could rap, and he looked like he could be an action star. Someone had to do it... why not him? He put out an album, he put out a movie, he's had the belt for this long... he's had a myth built around him, and he's going to be there for the forseeable future unless he gets injured. Contrast with Batista, a man who had a huge fan following until he got injured, came back... and wasn't the same. He had no album or movie to point to to get attention, he was just... well, him. He fell out of the public conciousness, which is why they're replacing him with Undertaker, who has always peripherally been there. When it comes to champions, the WWE doesn't always think about -fan- reaction, about -fan- money... it's about -public- reaction, -public- money. As much as we want to see Edge, HBK, Benoit as world champions... the public can't really give two bleeps about them.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=panix04;229409]I think eventually he will take up a backstage role to be honest, possibly a road agent ala Arn Anderson. He should hang up the tights soon though or he will risk tarnishing his legacy![/QUOTE] How many decades have people said that one? LOL.. I can't help but to back up 'ole Flair here. He's one of my favorites moreso now then when he was young.... I couldn't stand the four horsemen, I couldn't stand RIC FLAIR period... NEVER.... but now.. I don't know, he don't wear the flamboyant crap he used to, and what he does wear is kind of cool, like when James Brown would have the cape put on his back for the last.... Oh, 4 or 5 song's before he really ended a show. Or when Simmons says "Damn"... It's like a legacy thing now. Anyways, when I started watching wrestling again, I was like "What the heck... That guy is still around?" I was totally against it, and couldn't believe it... but now a few years have gone by and look at him. I cannot sit here and say that he has gotten anything but better in the ring for the most part... When he gets slammed (that way they throw him WAY UP in the air, over their backs) I still cringe everytime... I am always saying "Oh my GOD, He landed so WRONG!!" and I've been thinking that every single time... and he makes me think he's really hurt everytime, till he gets up, lol. My point is, He's like leather..... If you look, really watch the match's, there is never any give on any part of him. He looks frail, but I think that's partly cuz of the hair. When he lands, it's like a brick hit the ring. When someone smacks him, nothing jiggle's (like Viscera or something). He has a gut, but the rest is just solid, to the point of emulating one huge callous, lol. Anyways, I just see him going as long as he wants to. I think he is totally immune to pain, probably for a good while now. He don't look like he's going to be hurt very easily. Just all around, outside of his age, he just seems to keep performing up to any standards layed out.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=infinitywpi;229419]There is a reason why Cena gets the push he does. A very good reason, actually. Someone had to get it. Look at the WWE's recent history. Who are your best choices for Champ? They're all either injured or it wouldn't be their first time around. WWE needed someone recognizable to carry the title, and they needed to be -fresh-. They wanted someone who could be a new name, who they could try to build the future on instead of just rehashing the past. And they needed someone who had a good chance of being a mainstream name, not just a wrestling name. Cena could rap, and he looked like he could be an action star. Someone had to do it... why not him? He put out an album, he put out a movie, he's had the belt for this long... he's had a myth built around him, and he's going to be there for the forseeable future unless he gets injured. Contrast with Batista, a man who had a huge fan following until he got injured, came back... and wasn't the same. He had no album or movie to point to to get attention, he was just... well, him. He fell out of the public conciousness, which is why they're replacing him with Undertaker, who has always peripherally been there. When it comes to champions, the WWE doesn't always think about -fan- reaction, about -fan- money... it's about -public- reaction, -public- money. As much as we want to see Edge, HBK, Benoit as world champions... the public can't really give two bleeps about them.[/QUOTE] Kind of goes hand in hand of what I was thinking... He stretch's beyond the ring... Almost everyone KNOWS who John Cena is outside of wrestling. Probably just as many that know who "Stone Cold" is (I'm talking outside of wrestling, not people that used to, or ever did really... ). Stone Cold is HUGE beyond belief within' the Wrestling community, now with this movie, he can be known outside of it, but he hasn't really had that much exposure outside of small bits before this movie.

[djthefunkchris]

Have to admit, this was pretty entertaining [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KwGoAHsPxA"]here.[/URL]

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229413]No, I don't expect you to like him, and my statement wasn't meant for you... at least not the Smarks point.. I don't really consider you a Smark, because a normal smark would have changed their viewpoint by now, and you stand your ground, so your position is solid in my eyes. I still stand by my Smark position though. To me Smarks seem to think they are smarter then the company's they are watching. These same people criticized the WWE for NOT pushing Cena before... Now that the WWE is pushing them, the cool thing is to complain about the push. They won't ever be satisfied, because it's the WWE, and they are smarter then the WWE... and everything they say is good should be the number one show, not the WWE's products.... People just watch the WWE because we are all following the flock.... Actually, in my eyes the smarks follow the flock... They grope at what one person say's, or a group of individuals, and like a flock, they back them up..... right or wrong. Peter was right in assuming I meant from other forums, not this one. I have felt pretty good about the layout of how people think here (far as wrestling), and the debates are always in a way refreshing. I can appreciate your points of view because I feel they are genuine, and not just sheep herding (if you get my drift). You may say stuff I see on other forums, but I believe you when you say this is how YOU feel... You said it right after the dang show was over, lol... The difference is, when visiting other forums you will here the same thing echo'd by hundreds because they heard someone they think is right say the same thing. I don't know if you get what I'm saying or not, but I am still typing and debating... If I thought you didn't have anything to say worthwhile, I wouldn't be quoting and debating with you.[/QUOTE] Sorry if it seems like I don't respect your opinion, because I do. If anything, I felt like you didn't respect mine. But you clearly do, and I appreciate everything you've just said. I was going more from my standpoint than trying to fit in with what is popular or anything, but I can understand why he is being pushed to the moon. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. I realise that it's no coincidence that (McMahon aside) all of the World Champions going in to Wrestlemania (Lashley, Cena, and Batista) all look like action figures in real life. The merchandise opportunities are obvious and that is perhaps the biggest concern to McMahon. I just don't like that it's like that. As for the leather thing with Flair, I agree that he does quite literally look like leather. But that's what 40 years of sunbeds will do to you!

[panix04]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229420]How many decades have people said that one? LOL.. I can't help but to back up 'ole Flair here. He's one of my favorites moreso now then when he was young.... I couldn't stand the four horsemen, I couldn't stand RIC FLAIR period... NEVER.... but now.. I don't know, he don't wear the flamboyant crap he used to, and what he does wear is kind of cool, like when James Brown would have the cape put on his back for the last.... Oh, 4 or 5 song's before he really ended a show. Or when Simmons says "Damn"... It's like a legacy thing now. Anyways, when I started watching wrestling again, I was like "What the heck... That guy is still around?" I was totally against it, and couldn't believe it... but now a few years have gone by and look at him. I cannot sit here and say that he has gotten anything but better in the ring for the most part... When he gets slammed (that way they throw him WAY UP in the air, over their backs) I still cringe everytime... I am always saying "Oh my GOD, He landed so WRONG!!" and I've been thinking that every single time... and he makes me think he's really hurt everytime, till he gets up, lol. My point is, He's like leather..... If you look, really watch the match's, there is never any give on any part of him. He looks frail, but I think that's partly cuz of the hair. When he lands, it's like a brick hit the ring. When someone smacks him, nothing jiggle's (like Viscera or something). He has a gut, but the rest is just solid, to the point of emulating one huge callous, lol. Anyways, I just see him going as long as he wants to. I think he is totally immune to pain, probably for a good while now. He don't look like he's going to be hurt very easily. Just all around, outside of his age, he just seems to keep performing up to any standards layed out.[/QUOTE] Im afraid im gonna have to dis-agree with you there Chris, i think Flair was electrifying in his hey day, but i find his match's so boring these days i occasionally flip the channel over when he comes on. I think theres a point when you look at him and think, your not out drinking champoagne at night, you sit around plaing mahjong and watching 'murder she wrote'! Plus of late he has been pretty badly pre-selling the odd move, which frustrates the hell out of me! That coupled with the fact that his speech impediment that used to make him so unique and interesting, these days just makes him hard to understand! Although i do concede he does sell a backdrop well, credit were its due. :D

[Moe Hunter]

Wow, what a two-note topic. So Vince is WWE:ECW Champion. So what? Everyone who's been paying attention knows that ECW died in 2001 with a single good tribute show in 2005. Last year Vince started a new brand with the same name and a few guys from the old roster. Vince is NOT the Champion of the ECW promotion, he's just another WWE Champion. The Fatal Four Way was a very good match packed with excitement. It was also a novel and interesting ending. I now cannot wait to see what happens on Raw, whereas usually I find it extremely boring. Cena did not look strong AT ALL in that match. Everyone lasted/escaped the STFU, there was a sequence where the FU was escaped several times in a row, and he only managed to hit one at the end, right before he was Superkicked into Oblivion. It was sheer luck that he kept his belt, in a very JBL like win. How is this NOT good for the story and for fans hoping for Cena to drop and change his act? Cena can be beaten. Cleanly. He is not the 'better man' and is shown as almost an undeserving champion now. This is good for business. As for people saying that PPVs shouldn't end this way, I say that's bull****. Can you honestly say that this was worse than seeing Triple H or HBK tap at Mania 22 and 23? If you can with a straight face, I have to wonder about you. If matches only ever ended with a clean pinfall or submission, wrestling would be very boring. DQs, countouts, using the ropes, illegal weapon shots, manager and other interference... these are the spice of wrestling. Cena's latest 'victory' is the second best story we've got going, behind CM Punk's "I'm Sorry!" The Last Man Standing match was great, arguably even better as a match than their encounter at WM23. Sweet ending, too and the entire thing put both guys super over. I've always said Batista can put on a good match, and we just saw another one. Hopefully this spirit stays with him and he doesn't get lazy again. MVP vs Benoit! What a match this was. Absolutely fantastic right the way through, although MVP should have sold the Crossface instead of getting up first and going on offense. Great reaction for Benoit in his US Home Town. Women's match was the best we've seen in a long time, period. It was also a good match in its own right, not just "good for a women's match". Hardyz vs Rednecks actually had me enjoying the Rednecks. As hideous as Murdoch is, the guy can wrestle, although his "Yoshi Tonic" leaves something to be desired. The Hardyz mixed up their spots a little which is good to see a bit of variety, and that Poetry in Motion to the outside was brilliant. Overall the crowd was magnificent, easily the biggest and loudest reactions in a long time. They were so into every match it made the show that much better. At first I thought they were in NC due to their explosive reaction to the Haardyz (and the many, MANY signs for them in the crowd), but no - it was Atlanta. Great job to the citizens of Georgia!

[djthefunkchris]

Wow, I'm wondering if Wrestlemania was the one I should have bought this decade after that wonderfull insightfull look at Backlash. Thanks for that, I now feel as though I was there, and I will understand all the different video shots they have of it tonight!

[AfRoMaN36]

ECWs ratings have gone up when vince goes on. If I remembered corectly, they were up on wikipedia but arent up anymore. Ratings were tanking until Vince showed up and ignited the "ECW Originals vs the New Breed" Storyline. That very show got a 1.7 rating in contrast to the prior weeks 1.4. Still, I wish he didnt become champ. But Chris is right, if Lashley were to win, we would have heard the old. "Waaaah, Lashley beat 3 people" comments. But I'm almost positive this will relate to the very storyline he ignited with his appearance. He may come in and say "I'm pissing on the grave of the old ECW because Im the ECW champion" The originals may take offense to this until the new breed comes to save their boss. But you guys, bringing up TNA and saying how they should capitalize on this is useless. TNA isnt even bigger than MMA right now. They're barely alive and are a fraction of the size of the WWE. Face it, theyre the top gun, and if you dont like it, the remote shouldnt be too far from you.

[djthefunkchris]

That's not fair.... TNA has not lost much steam if any.... They are in several countries, and I would venture to say the Number two promotion working out of the USA.... That means, they are more popular then ROH, and all the other promotions around. Also, something to note:....... ECW was getting almost identically the same Ratings that TNA get now. I bring that up, because that tells me they have just as BIG of a following that ECW did "Back in the day". What I'm trying to say, is if someone thought it was valid that the "Old" ECW could have gave WWE a run for the money if they had enough Clout, then surely TNA could... To me TNA is run an awefull lot like the old WCW, and WCW SURE gave WWE a Run, but also outspent their budget... probably spent over 5 times as much as WWE did to capture first place back, but that's another story, and I'm not sure on those figures... The point I'm making is look what WCW did with the same type of feel that TNA has (not says they have, but actually has), with real clout to back them up. I think anyone with that type of clout would have a chance of going toe to toe with WWE... It's just I doubt they can stay their without a long term plan (not talkin' just worker's or wrestler's either).

[AfRoMaN36]

the ECW of old could have NEVER gone over with the mainstream media. They were a cult organization and would have remained that way to this day. They were just too risky, and any network would have told them to clean up or you wont get advertised or you just wont have a show at all. TNN and ECW went to war for this for the entirity of ECW's existance their. But the diffrence between TNN and ECW and Sci Fi and ECW, is that WWECW cleaed themselves up until smarks could argue that it no longer resembles the original ECW. I mean.... how often do you see Extreme rules matches nowadays? They were on every week at the beginning. And with the original ECW (where every match is hardcore) They wouldnt have stood a chance int he WWE's market. I will go to the gym right now, but I'll be back to continue debating.

[syndicate]

match of the year on raw? yeah right... the crowd looked bored as hell the match was not bad but is was not that great but shawn carried him through the whole match

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=syndicate;229506]match of the year on raw? yeah right... the crowd looked bored as hell the match was not bad but is was not that great but shawn carried him through the whole match[/QUOTE] If your refering to the Cena vs. HBK 54 minute match, then yeah, it was pretty darn good, almost as good as their Wrestlemania match, maybe better, I don't know, but.... If it does get match of the year award, it's not going to surprise too many people that watched it.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229500]That's not fair.... TNA has not lost much steam if any.... They are in several countries, and I would venture to say the Number two promotion working out of the USA.... That means, they are more popular then ROH, and all the other promotions around. Also, something to note:....... ECW was getting almost identically the same Ratings that TNA get now. I bring that up, because that tells me they have just as BIG of a following that ECW did "Back in the day". What I'm trying to say, is if someone thought it was valid that the "Old" ECW could have gave WWE a run for the money if they had enough Clout, then surely TNA could... To me TNA is run an awefull lot like the old WCW, and WCW SURE gave WWE a Run, but also outspent their budget... probably spent over 5 times as much as WWE did to capture first place back, but that's another story, and I'm not sure on those figures... The point I'm making is look what WCW did with the same type of feel that TNA has (not says they have, but actually has), with real clout to back them up. I think anyone with that type of clout would have a chance of going toe to toe with WWE... It's just I doubt they can stay their without a long term plan (not talkin' just worker's or wrestler's either).[/QUOTE] Wo..you ARE optimistic. Afroman is right. No one with even a modicum of common sense ever thought ECW could compete on a national level. Even Heyman admitted as such, saying they were "too big to be small but to small to ever be big [sic]." It was never feasible. Ever. Not w/o TV and as Afroman pointed out, what made ECW great is exactly why they could never be on TV (and be true to the product) or appeal to a large enough audience to succeed. And TNA is a joke. Let's not forget, they have never ever ever been in the black. They are bleeding money. If this was TEW the company would've folded a long time ago. But the Jarretts managed to convince Dixie Carter and Panda that "some day" they will get a return on their investment and so they continue to throw their money into acopany that is a black hole financially: the vast majority of their shows have no live gate, they get no ad revenue from their deal with Spike, and their PPV numbers aren't even a blip on the radar. What company or investor with clout would get behind a company that hasn't come close to turning a profit in its five years of existence? Afroman wasn't just being fair, he was being kind. That's why you have to actually appreciate companies like ROH. Sure they're basically a cult company, but they don't overspend, they know their audience, they have a solid and reliable business plan, and they understand their niche to the point where they could quietly truck along for the next twenty years while TNA would be gone five minutes after Panda pulled their financial support.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=syndicate;229506]match of the year on raw? yeah right... the crowd looked bored as hell the match was not bad but is was not that great but shawn carried him through the whole match[/QUOTE] Based on the reactions on the boards I've visited, I'd venture to say that MOST fans enjoyed the match. Maybe you just don't enjoy the WWE product. Either way, your assertion that Cena "fails at life" is off the mark. j bergey said it best: [QUOTE]I m sure Raw will miss you! You sound like an intelligent one![/QUOTE]

[keefmoon]

It's true that old ECW wouldn't have succeeded at a mainstream level because of the product it was offering, and it is true that the E had to water it down until no-one likes it. But that just tells me that they should never have resurrected it in the first place.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=keefmoon;229550]It's true that old ECW wouldn't have succeeded at a mainstream level because of the product it was offering, and it is true that the E had to water it down until no-one likes it. But that just tells me that they should never have resurrected it in the first place.[/QUOTE] Awesome post.

[djthefunkchris]

Something to note, about...... Wrestlemania. Everything I read from people that were there, they complained that the monitor wasn't easy to see, they had the Stone Cold movie up where they could see it, but the action itself was below it, and sounded just as hard to see the monitor's as it was to see the ring.... Since I haven't heard anyone say contrary, I believe the reason the crowd was not as intense, was because most the time they are going "What happened?"... couldn't see the action. Sounds like they made sure that problem was fixed for this last PPV though. Yeah, I'm optimistic.... ECW being that it was so risky wouldn't have been on regular TV, but I believe they could have found some way, some how, if they had the clout... Now don't get me wrong... I don't see any wrestling promotion out right now, giving WWE a run for their money, not in their current status. The Fact that TNA get's a .8 or .6 rating, says something though, doesn't it? That's actually around the same as the MMA shows isn't it? Anyways, I try to be a bit "nice" about TNA because of the huge fanbase that seemed to dominate the GDS forums when I first started posting here... It was like the worse thing to say, that TNA Impact was worse then a WWE show... although the overall feel around here has come to be a bit more honest about things, it's still something I Tiptoe through, especially when knowingly debating with someone that likes TNA.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=keefmoon;229550]It's true that old ECW wouldn't have succeeded at a mainstream level because of the product it was offering, and it is true that the E had to water it down until no-one likes it. But that just tells me that they should never have resurrected it in the first place.[/QUOTE] I like the idea of WWE having more brands... I was not a big ECW fan to be honest, never.... I do know that there were no hard feelings between the two promotions though... WWE steadily helped ECW quite a bit, they were kind of like an OVW to them in a way. I just dissagree mostly with saying that Vince wants to STOMP on ECW, like he STOMPED on WCW. I just don't buy into it. I think it's done for a reason, and if he acts that way, it's to help ECW, not to hurt them... Get the crowd mad at him, because if they are mad at how he treats ECW, that means that ECW is the good guy, and the crowd would be rooting for ECW to succeed.. Heck, If I were Vince, I would "act" Like I wanted ECW to die.... Just to make everyone else desire the opposite.

[PeterHilton]

Not a fan of tip toes. The bottom line about TNA is this: the actual in-ring talent is great. You could almost easily argue that top to bottom they have better performers than the WWE. But they're run by the chimpanzees on those monster.com commercials. Just one bad booking mistake after the other. The cynical part of me wants to say that JJ knows he's in a no-win situation financially so he continues to push himself. Not because he thinks its what's best for TNA, but so that he can get as many big paydaysa as he can befor ethe whole thing goes under. Either way, TNA would have to triple its audience and buy rates, do house shows, AND actually charge admission to their shows before they could come close to being a "viable" company.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;229562]I like the idea of WWE having more brands... I was not a big ECW fan to be honest, never.... I do know that there were no hard feelings between the two promotions though... WWE steadily helped ECW quite a bit, they were kind of like an OVW to them in a way. I just dissagree mostly with saying that Vince wants to STOMP on ECW, like he STOMPED on WCW. I just don't buy into it. I think it's done for a reason, and if he acts that way, it's to help ECW, not to hurt them... Get the crowd mad at him, because if they are mad at how he treats ECW, that means that ECW is the good guy, and the crowd would be rooting for ECW to succeed.. Heck, If I were Vince, I would "act" Like I wanted ECW to die.... Just to make everyone else desire the opposite.[/QUOTE] Well...WWE helped out ECW mainly because Vince was honest enough to admit that he basically stole the Attitude Era from the way ECW booked its shows. And they both hated the WCW. I agree that Vince doesn't want to stomp on ECW. But again, if the E hadn't screwed up this version of the ECW in the first place, they wouldn't have needed Vince to come in and save the day.

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;229571]if the E hadn't screwed up this version of the ECW in the first place, they wouldn't have needed Vince to come in and save the day.[/QUOTE] And now it's my turn to praise a post of yours... Excellent point. The fact that they need a 60 year old as champion says more than anything any of us could. As for saying Vince wants to stomp on ECW, I think you're referring to my point last night. I'll be honest and say that I overreacted because I was so annoyed. He isn't trying to ruin them; but the combination of his ego and bad running shows that ECW would have been better off as a great memory that they still could have made money out of with DVD sales and stuff.