maybe this has been suggested

[alphadraighon]

maybe this has been suggested, and maybe it's in the wrong spot if so, a thousand apologies. anyway, i got this idea from another post about main and secondary type finishers. the idea i has was for finisher prestige. what i mean by this is that a certain finisher, or certain type of finisher, would have its own level of interest/prestige, something like the wow factor i think i recall from Wrestling Spirit. what i hope this would mean is that a worker using a particular finishing move might give the match a slight boost, if it had high enough prestige. also, i think with such a feature, there should be a road agent note attatched to this, instructing a worker to use or hold back as you wish. i think this could work nice for if you have a certain finishing move banned, you could tick the box to use the finisher, but choose to have the match end in a dq. not the best idea ever, but just a random one i thought i'd share.

[sheepy]

I definately see some potential with this and it could make an interesting little addition. Something along the lines of having to protect a finisher to make it look more dangerous. Maybe road agent notes like having wrestlers kick out of a finisher during the match adds to the match rating but diminishes the prestige of the finisher which also affects the wrestler's momentum / popularity even if they go on to win the match. On the flip side the wrestler that kicks out gets a boost of momentum and overness even if they lose the match in the end. Certainly the WWE spends a lot of time trying to emphasise how deadly a certain finishing move is (think the masterlock and then the boost it gave to Lashley when he broke it). Its not the biggest change i'd like to see in the game and isn't absolutely critical that adam includes this but it could be interesting and add an extra dimension for booking.

[takertitan]

I think the best two examples(i shall use a jap and american example) are Kenta kobashi and his Burning Hammer and Undertaker and his Tombstone(till deadman gimmic). Kobashi's Buring Hammer(and Noonsault to a lesser extent) are like the drop of god in japan. I think Misawa was the only 1 to ever kick out of it, so it would higher prestige than his Burning Lariat or Orange Crush. Takers Tombstone when he was the biker was the "your gunna die now" move. Chokeslam was for jobbers. Last Ride was for most matches. Tombstone was "so you think your tough huh?". Tomb would be a A+ prestige, last ride a B and chokeslam a C. Stiffness would also effect its prestige. I would also like "trademarks" to be used and beat jobbers.

[cyberkitten01]

I was going to use the Burning Hammer as an example. To the best of my knowledge Kobashi has only ever used it 4 times in his career, and one of them was a wrist-clutch variant I believe. Him pulling out one of them would definitely turn an A match into A*

[Wildcat]

Though I like the idea in theory, I do wonder what would stop a person from using a the best finisher every match? Using the Undertaker for example as he's been mentioned, if the tombstone is his most prestigious finisher that what is to stop a person from using that finisher every match until it is no longer his most prestigious finisher and switching to the next most prestigious finisher in Taker's arsenal? Aren't we just getting into a game of musical finishers, skipping around from one to the next using one's prestige while building the other and than swapping? That to me would become boring rather quickly while really serving no real purpose other than adding another road agent note or tick box.. maybe I don't fully understand the concept, if so please explain it further as it seems fruitlessly tedious.

[Adam Ryland]

Again, this is a feature with no real drawbacks, a result of the fact that it's easy in real life to build up a finisher too - you can get any move over, it's just a matter of time, patience, and having people lose to it. It's not even like the move needs to be good, as evidenced by the fact that a leg drop and elbow drop have been two of the most over finishing moves of the past two decades. I can't really see this benefiting the game at all.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;360549]Again, this is a feature with no real drawbacks, a result of the fact that it's easy in real life to build up a finisher too - you can get any move over, it's just a matter of time, patience, and having people lose to it. It's not even like the move needs to be good, as evidenced by the fact that a leg drop and elbow drop have been two of the most over finishing moves of the past two decades. I can't really see this benefiting the game at all.[/QUOTE] In the past I've always thought about this, I think the same kind of way you just said it. I think to myself.. ok, That "Tombstone" seems completely awesome when Taker does it. However, if Jamie Noble was to do it, would it have the same "prestige"? I think what we are looking for is already there.... In Worker Overness. Everytime I try to think of a way to personalize the finisher, into a way to give benefits and downfalls, the only thing I can think of is... If more things are put into the game (especially road agent notes). For Example: NOTE: A worker goes for their finisher, but it is reversed! Or : A worker wins the match with their "Submission/Pinfall" finisher. Most of the best "Looking" type "Eyecandy" finisher's I've seen... Seems to me look better because of the person they are doing the finisher to.

[Thomnipotent]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;360549]Again, this is a feature with no real drawbacks, a result of the fact that it's easy in real life to build up a finisher too - you can get any move over, it's just a matter of time, patience, and having people lose to it. It's not even like the move needs to be good, as evidenced by the fact that a leg drop and elbow drop have been two of the most over finishing moves of the past two decades. I can't really see this benefiting the game at all.[/QUOTE] I don't mean to nag, Adam, but I have a few ideas for a finisher popularity system that might flesh it out a bit more. If not, it's cool. I'm just sayin'. :) Potential Drawbacks to Finisher System, Other Ideas, Etc.: 1. Fan Boredom: Surely if you spam a finisher down the crowd's throats, they'll tire of it pretty quickly meaning that the booker will have to be a bit more careful about using it every time. 2. Move Flashiness: The quality of a finisher should be based on the worker's skills, with the better moves taking less time to develop. That way things like the elbow drop, etc. won't suddenly rise to awesomeness. Worker charisma may also impact the rate of popularity growth, giving entertainment-based companies the chance to produce wrestlers with killer finishers as well. 3. Increased Injury Risk: Workers trying out a new finisher may injure themselves or others more frequently due to inexperience with the move. 4. Duds: Maybe certain finishers just won't 'click.' Something like the way chemistry works, perhaps, using the Hidden Destiny stat. 5. Product Compatibility: Promotions with higher Traditional may be more forgiving of less complex finishers (powerbomb, legdrop, etc) while Modern may demand crazier stunts (450 splash). 6. Gimmick Changes: A lot of times, workers end up changing their finishers to correspond with their new gimmicks. As cited earlier, The Undertaker started using The Last Ride after adopting the biker persona. Without the inclusion of the new move, I would've very much taken the gimmick change to mean "it's the same old Undertaker, but now he rides a motorcycle." Granted, he still used the Tombstone, but The Last Ride seemed to make the character repackaging process a more effective one. The only reason so many people are pushing so hard for this feature is because it makes a lot of sense; finishers and wrestlers go hand in hand, for the most part; it's a relationship of synergy between the two, a worker getting a finisher over and that finisher working to get him more over at the same time. Case in point: I probably wouldn't have known about or cared about Petey Williams if I didn't hear "OMG CANADIAN DESTROYER~!!!!!1" all over the forums. At the same time, I wouldn't be able to make fun of Hulk Hogan all the time if it weren't for the legdrop. I understand if you don't want to include this as it is your game, and I'll surely love it anyway; at this point, it's really just food for thought. Some humble suggestions. Take them as you will.

[Adam Ryland]

I agree that finishers are a big part of wrestling, the problem is that they're extremely hard to simulate simply because they lack logic - for example, you talked about flashy killer moves being easier to get over, which logically should be the case, but the reality is that that doesn't happen. You only have to do a quick rundown of the most recognisable finishers in the US to see how little logic applies: legdrop (Hogan), elbow drop (Rock), glorified jaw breaker (Austin), glorified savate kick (HBK), sock in the mouth (Foley), fireman's carry takedown (Cena) and rugby tackle (Edge). It's hardly a highlight reel of flashiness is it? :p It's not like they even have to be applied well; Rock's sharpshooter and Cena's STF are almost universally mocked for their sloppy technique, but they're still over. That seems to back up the argument that a finisher will get over based upon the worker using it more than anything else. As for the drawbacks you listed, unfortunately all have counter-arguments: 1. The Stunner has to be the most over-used finisher of all time, and it's still over. 2. See examples above. 3. Doesn't jive with reality, as I've never heard of anyone getting injured this way. 4. True, but you'd know pretty quickly, so you just switch to a different finisher; with everybody having multiple finishers these days, there's not much of a penalty there. 5. Again, true, but not much of a penalty - it'd take a pretty dumb booker to continue to try and get over a finisher that was clearly irritating his audience, even if we accept that a finisher couldn't get over that way (which I don't). 6. This is true is some examples, but equally there's numerous examples where people keep the same finisher, so it's not something you can really enforce as a proper penalty.

[buck44f]

ok, I'm bit confused, they way that finshers get over is using it right. Like HBK almost always wins with super kick. Or HHH with Perigree. now when someone kicks out of said move, it makes the other guy look strong. Someone said something about that, but that the only thing with finisher I liked to see. Again, I may just be conufsed.

[alden]

I think if the "finisher" is based on anything it should be entertainment and selling of the other person. Use the two examples as the most over moves ever. A leg drop and a elbow drop. do you think if rock did not do his little elbow pad thing and run back and forth a few time it would be over? if it was just an elbow drop it would be bad. But also, look how the other people act. They always kick up there legs and sell it to the moon. So i think it is all based on rocks charimsa/acting and the other guys selling ability. the leg drop is basicly the same thing. hogan ALWAYS comes back from getting destroyed. "hulks up", points hits a few punches, hits the slam and then the leg drop. Again the other person always sell the "hulk up". If hogan just hit a leg drop it would be nothing. All great finishers have a few things in common. A good set up *hbk's stomping of the foot, foleys pulls out of the sock, cena's "rant" before he hits the fu*. It is all based on how well it is sold. This is ofcourse a sports entertainment fed. take the cattle mudilation for example. That is a insane move to me, but lets be honest, it does not look very flashy. But people know what it is going to do. In that case the finisher would be based on technical skill *or in this case submission*. I think it is something that would add to the game yah, but it is just one more stat to me to be honest.

[praguepride]

Adam is completely right, finishers have absolutely nothing to do with how good they look or what they do, it's all about the wrestler doing it. Overness baby, that's why the Rock's elbow drop was dubbed "The Most Exciting Move In Wrestling." It really isn't. Check out a tape of when Scotty 2 Hotty first unveiled "The Worm" back when no one knew who he was. It was hilarious listening to the crowd fall silent as no one had any idea what the heck he was doing, dancing around all over the stage. Flash forward when Too Cool won the straps and people knew who Scotty was. Then the crowd popped when he hopped around on one leg and did the worm. The routine was exactly the same as when it first debuted, the only thing that changed was that Scotty wasn't popular before, now he was. Therefore, his finisher sucked before, but now the whole crowd chanted "W-O-R-M" as he hopped. What changed? Overness, popularity. Not his ability to sell it, not his gimmick or anything, the only thing that changed was that he was popular now, so the move was popular. Someone mentioned that kicking out of a finisher made someone look strong, well there is a "Keep Strong" road agent note that makes a particular wrestler look strong. There are some really funny examples of how terrible finishers can be, yet people still buy them. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZuHvBh7KtQ[/url] [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wUjPC4967Q[/url] All you really need is two more road agent notes "Use finisher 1, use finisher 2" and it would be nice to add that fluff for a cheap pop, but it's not about the finisher, it's about the (wo)man behind the finisher.

[Guest Ransik]

Maybe just a "Loser Kicks Out of Opponent's Finisher" road agent option to try and add to the match?

[praguepride]

Further evidence: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXNt4KfTudY[/url] Austin Stuns the half the WWF staff (and backstage workers, and refs) and yet the crowd still goes wild after each and every stunner.