Journal discussion thread

[The Bus]

Q to Adam: Does Sex Appeal or Superstar Quality change through time?

[Blackman]

Awtch. Me no like the 'looks' redefinition. Why sex appeal? I agree it's as subjective as it used to be, and assume you take the modern beauty standard for it. Oh well; never mind. :) So people like Masters won't have A looks anymore? Well at least that's positive. :D @Bus: Actually it should. You are not born with sex appeal. Frickin' ugly babies, all of them. :P But it does evolve, and normally degrades when you pass, like what, 30? The game might include 'make-overs', which would simulate the WWE style of doing things: grab an indy chick and 'improve' her (though not everyone will agree) sexappeal.

[crayon]

[quote="Adam Ryland"]Superstar Quality could quite easily be renamed "intangibles", as that's exactly what it is - the whole point of the stat is that there are intangibles in wrestling, and they need to be simulated in some way. This is currently the best method. Whether you choose to believe they exist is entirely your business, but the fact remains that a number of key players in the industry have mentioned them during interviews, so at the very least they are perceived as being important and so should be in the game.[/quote] Oh I'm sure the fact that people can't put their finger on why something is so good is very real and does indeed exist. And fair enough; we're not all psychologists, after all. I'm just saying I believe that any of these "intangibles" are actually explainable in a sensical manner if people looked deep enough into them. Of course whatever they may be explained as may still fall outside of the current list of stats available for workers, so that's also good enough reason for it. And with you nicely shedding light on the subject it does also make it apparent that the majority of people would still find it easier to use an Intangibles stat than figure out exactly why something works (if people in the industry fall back on it, then what can we be expected to do). And I can't blame them. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt, and that's only for a couple of workers let alone a database full of thousands.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=crayon;427110]Oh I'm sure the fact that people can't put their finger on why something is so good is very real and does indeed exist. And fair enough; we're not all psychologists, after all. I'm just saying I believe that any of these "intangibles" are actually explainable in a sensical manner if people looked deep enough into them. Of course whatever they may be explained as may still fall outside of the current list of stats available for workers, so that's also good enough reason for it. And with you nicely shedding light on the subject it does also make it apparent that the majority of people would still find it easier to use an Intangibles stat than figure out exactly why something works (if people in the industry fall back on it, then what can we be expected to do). And I can't blame them. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt, and that's only for a couple of workers let alone a database full of thousands.[/QUOTE] Ok then, Using the stats in the game, tell me why Jeff Hardy is one of the most over people in the WWE in recent times. He doesn't 'look' like a wrestler. He doesn't have much 'wrestling' talent, he's pretty poor on the mic, he has a fair bit of Charisma - though very little 'presence' in the ring.

[D. Boons Ghost]

Pretty soon there is going to be a Boot Lacing stat. I just know it. ;)

[rodzillahotrod]

[QUOTE=D. Boon's Ghost;427118]Pretty soon there is going to be a Boot Lacing stat. I just know it. ;)[/QUOTE] lol...jeff is over because of his looks almost every female likes him and i know guys that just love the way he dresses and the way he "flys" me personally i think he sucks he does have a appeal to him kinda like a rocker gothic thing but i personally like other wrestlers way more then him i just think the guy sucks.

[James Casey]

Ah, but would it measure how the pattern someone uses when they lace their boots, how tight they tie them, or how well they do that thing where they rake their boots across the other guy's face? And what about those guys who use velcro, or buckles? And didn't the Mean Street Posse wear slip-ons? And Umaga works barefoot, to name just one... :p * And intangibles can't be measured - hence intangible. Or can someone explain why Owen Hart, who was a better looking, more charismatic and equally talented version of his brother, never got that big push? (Please note, I'm a huge Bret mark - but let's be honest here...) I've always thought that a massive chunk of Bret's appeal was those shades of his. Let's be honest, they were [I]damn[/I] cool...

[crayon]

[QUOTE=Chriswok;427112]Ok then, Using the stats in the game, tell me why Jeff Hardy is one of the most over people in the WWE in recent times. He doesn't 'look' like a wrestler. He doesn't have much 'wrestling' talent, he's pretty poor on the mic, he has a fair bit of Charisma - though very little 'presence' in the ring.[/QUOTE] I can't say I've seen the recent WWE run of Jeff Hardy, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it's because of WWE's lackadaisical roster that he's one of the most over people in the WWE in recent times. Like I say, I haven't seen him lately, but are we saying he's the next Austin, Rock, Flair, Foley? Hell, even the next HHH? But even if we're not boosting him up to such lofty heights, I guess I'd say it's a combination of High Looks (mayhaps not as a wrestler, but his image is definitely over), Good Flashiness with wrasslin (and perhaps even Hardcore, depending what kind of spots he does.. when we're comparing it to the rest of wwe's roster), Okay to Good Charisma (depending if you're also counting his image as a part of this).. and yeah, I can't think of too much else for him. Not much there, this is true. But then I'm also the sort of ******* who would say that there's probably even less to work with other workers on WWE's roster (which i guess is supposed to be pretty awesome by definition). I say probably because I stopped watching WWE two years or more ago, because there was (nearly?) noone left who actually had this, intangible (or tangible as I'm holding onto the theory) "it" factor that we're all talking about. And by those standards I expect Jeff Hardy right now probably does look pretty awesome. Of course, if all of WWE's workers had stats how I'd most likely give them, I don't know if they'd actually manage to keep their global or international position in a Real World Mod, either. So in that case I would be working against gameplay I suppose. In fact this really is more of a philosophical/psychological debate (when it comes to why we like or dislike something, is it all explainable or is there some things beyond our scope of comprehension?) than a Adam Ryland design debate. I just thought I'd mention it in the first place, y'know. It probably does cover more stats than what's included, but at least at a brief glance (which is what I gave it) it seemed like all the neccessary ingredients were there to cook up some "it". [quote]And intangibles can't be measured - hence intangible. Or can someone explain why Owen Hart, who was a better looking, more charismatic and equally talented version of his brother, never got that big push? (Please note, I'm a huge Bret mark - but let's be honest here...) I've always thought that a massive chunk of Bret's appeal was those shades of his. Let's be honest, they were damn cool...[/quote] Therefore his shades made him better looking :D I dunno, better gimmick at the time? Luckier with the storylines and momentum? And if intangibles can't be measured, how can we give them a rating between 1-100? :P

[theoutlaw321]

[QUOTE=James Casey;427120]I've always thought that a massive chunk of Bret's appeal was those shades of his. Let's be honest, they were [I]damn[/I] cool...[/QUOTE] /nods :cool:

[Bucky Sinister]

[QUOTE=crayon;427099]But then you'd never really give Eric Young, Jay Lethal, or Sharkboy 110 in charisma would you?[/QUOTE] Heh. Actually, in honor of Adam's old real world data from EWR, I always give Shark Boy really high stats. Because, hey! He's Shark Boy! And as for Superstar Quality... [QUOTE=crayon;427099]Like you said, Austin had a mixture of things that got him so over[/QUOTE] Austin's a great example of how I've always thought of the Superstar stat: a combination of qualities that add up to making someone great in ways the rest of their stats can't convey. In other words, for some workers, the whole really is greater than the sum of their parts. And those workers are the ones with Superstar Quality. And I do think it's a measurable stat. A guy like Trevor Murdoch, for instance, has it. Not as much as, say, a Chris Jericho, but more than a Matt Bentley. So when assigning the Superstar stat, I usually try to match it up with what I think their potential popularity might be. If I can't see someone ever getting past the upper mid-card, I limit Superstar to something roughly equal to the popularity he'd need to get that kind of booking in a National-sized or larger promotion. That's no guarantee he'll get there; booking and chemistry and the proper exposure play a big part in who makes it to the big time, too. But the Superstar stat at least helps ensure that somebody will give him a shot.

[rodzillahotrod]

imo owen died to early to say he wasn't going to go over his brother. also if u read some of the things about his career before he died and y he did that stunt. him not agreeing to do stupid things that vince asked him to do. is probably y he didn't get that great push and y he is dead. i can't blame the guy and im not trying to turn this into a owen hart thread it just my opinion.

[crayon]

[QUOTE=Bucky Sinister;427127]Heh. Actually, in honor of Adam's old real world data from EWR, I always give Shark Boy really high stats. Because, hey! He's Shark Boy! And as for Superstar Quality... Austin's a great example of how I've always thought of the Superstar stat: a combination of qualities that add up to making someone great in ways the rest of their stats can't convey. In other words, for some workers, the whole really is greater than the sum of their parts. And those workers are the ones with Superstar Quality. And I do think it's a measurable stat. A guy like Trevor Murdoch, for instance, has it. Not as much as, say, a Chris Jericho, but more than a Matt Bentley. So when assigning the Superstar stat, I usually try to match it up with what I think their potential popularity might be. If I can't see someone ever getting past the upper mid-card, I limit Superstar to something roughly equal to the popularity he'd need to get that kind of booking in a National-sized or larger promotion. That's no guarantee he'll get there; booking and chemistry and the proper exposure play a big part in who makes it to the big time, too. But the Superstar stat at least helps ensure that somebody will give him a shot.[/QUOTE] I guess I'm just finding with the mod I'm working on now that when thinking about the Superstar Quality stat and how much to give someone my thoughts always come back to overlapping with other stats already there and I'm never really left considering anything else. But also then have this stat to contend with. That's so far, anyhow (it is only 70 workers complete, so maybe I just haven't come across that person who's over because of something outside of what's trackable in TEW). I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter though and it does also make a great of sense how you use it. And why not eh. If people are happy with it, more power to em :)

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Dolfanar;427075]From what I gather, this has been the case ALL along. All Adam did was rename looks to something more evocative. Based on this, in the past when someone like Andre the Giant was getting high looks, it was a complete misinterpretation of the ability.[/QUOTE] Has been one of my biggest complaints... How do you give Trish Strattus 66 in looks, and Andre 100? The interpretation come from the statement about a persons Physique also effecting the stat. I always took it to mean things like How well built (Again, Trish has a great body). People like HHH (who to me is ugly as heck) would have a higher looks then you would expect, because his physique makes up for that huge NOSE. [QUOTE=crayon;427132]I guess I'm just finding with the mod I'm working on now that when thinking about the Superstar Quality stat and how much to give someone my thoughts always come back to overlapping with other stats already there and I'm never really left considering anything else. But also then have this stat to contend with. That's so far, anyhow (it is only 70 workers complete, so maybe I just haven't come across that person who's over because of something outside of what's trackable in TEW). I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter though and it does also make a great of sense how you use it. And why not eh. If people are happy with it, more power to em :)[/QUOTE] Superstar Quality... It's tough. I think of it as a way to help guide the "Destiny" stat a bit. IF you think someone like Kurt Angle has the ability to become another "Rock" or "Austin" type, then you would bring that stat up (IF). Same with any of your indie guys or anyone. Think of it maybe this way... People that haven't had the opportunity to be pushed the way you feel would bring out the best in them, might get a higher Superstar Quality, then people that have been pushed to the moon (In every way imagineable), but has never been able to get the crowd into them. PS: About Jeff Hardy, and the Hardy's in general. I think what you have with these guys are a couple of guys that have been around long enough to be thought of as Vet's, but young enough to connect with today's crowd, as well as the average female's eye. Jeff Hardy comes on, and it's like one of the biggest "Pop" stars have been announced. I wouldn't compare him to "Mic Jagger" as much as perhaps Justin (however you spell his last name..Timberlake?). They call it a rock star entrance, but to me it's more of a "Pop" icon entrance. A combination of Looks, youth, energy, and "nice guy" qualities, as well as a bit of respect. This combination somehow brings out a bigger "S.Q." in my opinion, then their actual skills would dictate.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;427175]PS:About Jeff Hardy, and the Hardy's in general. I think what you have with these guys are a couple of guys that have been around long enough to be thought of as Vet's, but young enough to connect with today's crowd, as well as the average female's eye. Jeff Hardy comes on, and it's like one of the biggest "Pop" stars have been announced. I wouldn't compare him to "Mic Jagger" as much as perhaps Justin (however you spell his last name..Timberlake?). They call it a rock star entrance, but to me it's more of a "Pop" icon entrance. A combination of Looks, youth, energy, and "nice guy" qualities, as well as a bit of respect. This combination somehow brings out a bigger "S.Q." in my opinion, then their actual skills would dictate.[/QUOTE] Which was my point, I was trying to make. His skills are pretty average, however he has such a high Star Quality, that he stands out.

[Bucky Sinister]

I think the Hardys' Superstar edge comes from just being cool in the eyes of many fans. It's the same thing Jimmy Jacobs has hit on with his Age of the Fall emo gimmick: the flashy-yet-mysteriously-tortured outsider. Granted, Jacobs seems to think the whole thing's funny, but the Hardys really seem to live the gimmick.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=Bucky Sinister;427186]I think the Hardys' Superstar edge comes from just being cool in the eyes of many fans. It's the same thing Jimmy Jacobs has hit on with his Age of the Fall emo gimmick: the flashy-yet-mysteriously-tortured outsider. Granted, Jacobs seems to think the whole thing's funny, but the Hardys really seem to live the gimmick.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure its not a 'gimmick' with Jeff Hardy.

[lazorbeak]

I think this change is kind of a no-brainer, but then, I [I]do[/I] read help files, and recognize that this isn't really that big of a deal. People need to look less to guys that are talented enough that they didn't need massive amounts of superstar quality, to those that basically had nothing but superstar quality. Look at Lex Luger. He was never talented in the ring at all, but he was over for most of his career, based mostly on a high looks stat (which allowed him to be "the narcissist" or whatever) and a high superstar quality. Then look at any "giant" type character, from Andre to Kane to Great Khali. Obviously they don't have good looks, but they need something beyond just menace to show that these guys get over more easily then a guy like Gangrel. I think the main thing to keep in mind though, is that guys can get over and be successful without either superstar looks in the A*-B range or a high looks stat. It just won't be as easy to get the crowd behind them. Cactus Jack and Dean Malenko were amazing wrestlers, but not the type of guys who could instantly get over with their superstar looks or work gimmicks where they walk around flexing in front of mirrors. Of course it's subjective if you're deciding whether The Rock deserves a 89 or a 91 in terms of sex appeal (his superstar quality would obviously be higher), but even the most clueless of mod makers should be able to get inside the ballpark. Oh, and as far as Jeff Hardy- he would definitely have a high looks stat (to allow his "teen idol" and "punk rocker" type gimmicks), but he would also have a higher superstar rating than Matt. I think Matt's a better wrestler, but look at how much easier it is for Jeff to get over with the fans.

[sprinklefurball]

[quote=tommytomlin;427046]I know I'm going to forget to update this stat for a few workers, and have Haystacks Calhoun with a 90 Sex Appeal :([/quote] You mean thats not true?

[sprinklefurball]

[quote=shamelessposer;427068]Haystacks Calhoun is a sexy beast. He is a beautiful ****ing animal.[/quote] Damn, beat me to it...

[W3LSHY]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;426595]I have no idea where you got development contracts being discarded from...[/QUOTE] Oops, sorry, must be thinking of something else :o

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Bucky Sinister;427186]I think the Hardys' Superstar edge comes from just being cool in the eyes of many fans. It's the same thing Jimmy Jacobs has hit on with his Age of the Fall emo gimmick: the flashy-yet-mysteriously-tortured outsider. Granted, Jacobs seems to think the whole thing's funny, but the Hardys really seem to live the gimmick.[/QUOTE] Jacobs is overrated. Forlan inflated his skills. Esp in the entertainment area. Jacobs isn't that great at cutting promos. And anyone who isn't a mark for AOTF who actually watches them can see it. And really, Jacobs has done a terrible job as a heel at being hated with the stable as a whole.

[hakk99]

The only two men with A* Looks in the C-verse are Bruce the Giant and Marat Khoklov. Marat is a body builder so I guess he's believable if you think freakish muscles are attractive. Bruce the Giant weighs six hundred pounds. Jessica Gilmore has A* looks and is only a manager so there it obviously refers to sex appeal and not the look of a wrestler. At the A level you have long-haired pretty boys Byron and Jack Bruce, goofy middle-weight Randy Bumfhole, and puro stars Hoshino and Koiso. Everyone who has at least an A in looks also has at least an A in SQ except the non wrestlers and Byron, who has a B+ in SQ. OTOH 60 year old Sam Strong still rates a B- in the looks department. Most everyone with an F in looks (and most of them are old, so I assume the stat does decrease with age) also has an F or E- in SQ. We might also note that Brendan Idol, whose biography states that his main quality is the ability to make teenage girls scream, only rates a B+ in looks and a B- in SQ. "Pretty boy" Raphael only rates a B- in looks. Limiting "looks" to sex appeal definitely would make things more clear. Though will the "look" of Bruce the Giant or Sam Strong become part of their SQ stat?

[sprinklefurball]

[quote=hakk99;427339]The only two men with A* Looks in the C-verse are Bruce the Giant and Marat Khoklov. Marat is a body builder so I guess he's believable if you think freakish muscles are attractive. Bruce the Giant weighs six hundred pounds. Jessica Gilmore has A* looks and is only a manager so there it obviously refers to sex appeal and not the look of a wrestler. At the A level you have long-haired pretty boys Byron and Jack Bruce, goofy middle-weight Randy Bumfhole, and puro stars Hoshino and Koiso. Everyone who has at least an A in looks also has at least an A in SQ except the non wrestlers and Byron, who has a B+ in SQ. OTOH 60 year old Sam Strong still rates a B- in the looks department. Most everyone with an F in looks (and most of them are old, so I assume the stat does decrease with age) also has an F or E- in SQ. We might also note that Brendan Idol, whose biography states that his main quality is the ability to make teenage girls scream, only rates a B+ in looks and a B- in SQ. "Pretty boy" Raphael only rates a B- in looks. So if the only change Adam is making is the cosmetic change of labeling "looks" sex appeal then that now means Bruce the Giant has considerably more sex appeal than Brendan Idol and Raphael. I'm confused. And SQ seems to always be directly connected (though not exactly equivalent) to looks so intangibles seem quite closely connected to sex appeal?[/quote] It may mean that the stat is a little bit different than the old version of the stat, and therefore will most likely change once this game comes out. I.E. maybe Brendon Idol and Raphael will have better sex appeal when the CVerse for 08 comes out.

[hakk99]

I would assume so. Will the "look" of a wrestler, as it was used in 07, be incorporated into the SQ rating in 08 now that "looks" has been limited to sex appeal?

[Guest deathcroc]

Everybody must be out playing with the editor, as I haven't seen anybody mention today's journal update. :) On Topic: Quicker house show reports - I like it!!! Along with the new development changes and the B show addition, this is really shaping up to have even better long-term game play options, as far as wrestler talent is concerned.