Possible stroke for Nagata

[Bad Luck Brett]

I'm a big Yuji fan. Strokes are serious business, let's hope for the best. [URL="http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=22096"]Source[/URL] [QUOTE]Japanese superstar has possible stroke by Dave Meltzer [email]Dave@wrestlingobserver.com[/email] Yuji Nagata, 39, a two-time IWGP heavyweight champion, was rushed to the hospital earlier today when he showed up at Tokyo Sumo Hall for the New Japan show complaining of severe pain in the brain and no control of the left side of his body. According to those backstage, Nagata was speaking clearly, which was a good sign. His right side was fine. He said he had severe headaches two weeks ago but continued to wrestle and never got them checked out. Doctors at the show thought he may have suffered a stroke.[/QUOTE]

[AfRoMaN36]

That sucks. Nagata is one of the few Japanese guys I acually know and like. Let keep our fingers crossed here.

[Tyler Gadzinski]

why did Jeff Jarrett go to Japan?

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Tyler Gadzinski;374065]why did Jeff Jarrett go to Japan?[/QUOTE] For shame, Tyler. For shame. I understand the temptation but that joke is so wrong. And not in a fun way. Anyway, best wishes to Nagata after this possible stroke. After Liger, he's my favorite of the Japanese guys WCW had in during the 90's. One of the best ring talents I've ever seen. Would be sad if an overlooked medical issue lead to him being diminished professionally.

[NickC13573]

i dont get the Jeff Jarrett joke

[Lostrelms]

[QUOTE=NickC13573;374070]i dont get the Jeff Jarrett joke[/QUOTE] Jeff Jarrett's finisher is.. "The Stroke" hence the joke bieng in poor taste.

[NickC13573]

oh, sorry. I guess it was best for me not to get that joke, but ya that joke was in bad taste.

[Tyler Gadzinski]

sorry i didnt know everyone was so uptight about everything.. Lex Luger had a stroke and nobody cared that much now Yuji Nagata a Japanese wrestler doesnt even have one but a close call and its in bad taste.. get a sense of humor. And someone said it on another thread and I thought it was funny so I thought id say it here to see if you guys thought it was funny. Sorry if i offended anyone but seriously dont be so uptight.

[Derek B]

[QUOTE=Tyler Gadzinski;374182]sorry i didnt know everyone was so uptight about everything.. Lex Luger had a stroke and nobody cared that much now Yuji Nagata a Japanese wrestler doesnt even have one but a close call and its in bad taste.. get a sense of humor. And someone said it on another thread and I thought it was funny so I thought id say it here to see if you guys thought it was funny. Sorry if i offended anyone but seriously dont be so uptight.[/QUOTE] What's funny to one person is insensitive to another. If someone you liked had a stroke you probably wouldn't think it was funny if I made a joke about it 10 seconds after you found out about it. A little tact goes a long way. On topic though... its never good to hear someone suffering from any sort of injury or illness. I hope this turns out to be nothing serious.

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=derek_b;374183]What's funny to one person is insensitive to another. If someone you liked had a stroke you probably wouldn't think it was funny if I made a joke about it 10 seconds after you found out about it. A little tact goes a long way. On topic though... its never good to hear someone suffering from any sort of injury or illness. I hope this turns out to be nothing serious.[/QUOTE] Plus, Lugers a prick.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=derek_b;374183]What's funny to one person is insensitive to another. If someone you liked had a stroke you probably wouldn't think it was funny if I made a joke about it 10 seconds after you found out about it. A little tact goes a long way. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;374228]Plus, Lugers a prick.[/QUOTE] There are these two points. Derek's being especially well made although I can't exactly argue with Afroman either. But for me, there's a bigger issue at hand. My older brother had a stroke a couple years ago and it changed him dramatically. He used to be a master carpenter and recondition old cars and be one of the best project guys you ever saw. Now his mind's been decimated to the point he can't even watch a movie because he forgets plot points at the beginning that would foreshadow the ending and/or develop the characters. Depending on how this situation turns out for Nagata, it could end a brilliant career too soon. I've seen what could happen to Nagata and the mental image is chilling. This is not the time for puns. It's time to wish Nagata well and sees how things shake out. In a few months when things take more shape maybe your Jeff Jarrett pun will be cute. I can't deny it was a creative connection. But right now, so not the time for it.

[Nevermore]

I've said this in the Owen thread, too, but I really think it needs to be said. Tact is one thing but tolerance is a two-way street. If you wish Tyler to respect your conservatism, fine, but surely you can pay him the same respect by not jumping on him for having a differing sense of humour. If you don't find something funny, don't develop the conversation. It's the subsequent moral argument that's stirred up the most ill-feeling. You could always just let it go... Sorry... I just find all the guys on here to be nice, intelligent people. It seems a shame for the atmosphere to take an unnecessary downturn. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[justtxyank]

As tasteless as the joke may have been, it is even more tasteless imo that the joke would have been ok if it had been about someone you didn't like. His joke speaks to his sense of humor, but that quote speaks to your quality. (Unless it too was said in jest)

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=justtxyank;374496]As tasteless as the joke may have been, it is even more tasteless imo that the joke would have been ok if it had been about someone you didn't like. His joke speaks to his sense of humor, but that quote speaks to your quality. (Unless it too was said in jest)[/QUOTE] But Luger's a prick. ... I kid, I kid. I can tell someones gunna take offense to this.

[Bad Luck Brett]

Update on the thread topic.. [URL="http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=22110"]Source[/URL] [QUOTE]Nagata health update by Dave Meltzer Results of the MRI on Yuji Nagata revealed no brain abnormalities but he will be undergoing several more tests over the next day. Nagata had a dizzy spell and lost power on the left side of his body when training during the afternoon Sunday before a scheduled match with Hirooki Goto at Sumo Hall in Tokyo. He was rushed to the hospital and it was feared he had suffered a stroke or effects of a serious concussion.[/QUOTE] Good to hear that the first test revealed nothing of interest, and in my opinion it's even better news that he'll continue with follow-up tests. Being a sports fan, I've seen far too many cases where an athelete will seemingly "search" until they find that doctor that will tell them "everything's OK", even though the majority of doctors have told the athlete that they have a problem. Just in Boston alone, we lost Reggie Lewis of the Celtics in the 90's because he refused to listen to a slew doctors of his heart problems until he found that one opinion that said "you, can still play". And had a major scare, when one of our NFL players for the Patriots, Teddy Bruschi, suffered a stroke just days after winning a championship.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;374495] Tact is one thing but tolerance is a two-way street. If you wish Tyler to respect your conservatism, fine, but surely you can pay him the same respect by not jumping on him for having a differing sense of humour. If you don't find something funny, don't develop the conversation. It's the subsequent moral argument that's stirred up the most ill-feeling. You could always just let it go... [/QUOTE] Except aren't you kind of assuming facts not in evidence here. Who said anything about being conservative or squeamish or whatever you want to call it? Who said it needs to be about that? The point isn't just about the content of the joke. I've heard this kind of humor done ever since the Challenger disaster when folks were making them about Christa McAuliffe and her dandruff problem. (They found her Head & Shoulders on the beach) And I recognize it can be a coping mechanism. So at least for me, it's not so much the content that rankles as the timing. We still don't know how much or little there is to know. So it's a very raw nerve for folks. Let some things shake out and then if things become dire, maybe it's time for the dark humor to start. And even then, you have to know your audience. There's a difference between engaging in dark humor to lighten a situation and rubbing salt in people's wounds. This is one of the problems I have with American society in general these days. Harsh behavior is taken to be the same thing as comedy and if you don't like it, you're the one who's seen to have the problem. Fine lines are treated as though they are they are either invisible or like they aren't there. A good comedian isn't just someone who says funny stuff. It's someone who says stuff he knows his audience will find funny. Dark humor like Tyler's requires extra care on the Internet because it's harder to know your audience online than when they are in the room with you. There is no inflection to text so it's harder to determine intent. Especially when emotions are raw as they are for Nagata at the moment. It's as much the fact Tyler didn't seem to know or care how he'd be recieved before joking that has people reacting as the actual joke. Even a simple smiley would have sufficed. The joke would still technically be in bad taste but at least folks would be better able to see he meant well. I forget which 50's chick singer made the song famous. Whether it was Kitty Kallen or Julie London or someone else in that vein. But the old standard still rings true. Little Things Mean A Lot. If Tyler had shown he understood that and acted accordingly, he probably wouldn't have been flamed like he has been for this joke.

[Self]

Dark comedy is also better when the jokes are REALLY funny. No offense to Tyler, there is a certain degree of clever to the joke, but my train of thought on reading it was "What? What does he mean by... What a random thing to say? In this thread of all places. The poor dude suffers a stroke and he brings up Jeff Jarrett... Is that a joke? Am I missing something? Oh well, next post... OH! Stroke. I get it, yeah, that's... sorta clever I guess... kinda inappropriate though."

[tristram]

My mother in law had a stroke about 4 years ago (nearly to the day). We were there, when she had it. She never came out of it, she laid in a hospital bed for 3 more weeks, unable to move, unable to speak. There isn't a single funny stroke joke out, once you see it happen. Nagata's got to take it easy, and be careful IMO. With my mother in law, we'd noticed a couple of falls, and a couple of moments where she'd lapsed memory or just lot perspective of what was happening out there. We never knew if those incidents that we didn't take any notice of were mini strokes, but IMO there can be indicative signs of a forthcoming one and it's often best to heed the bodies natural warning signs and do what you can to prevent it, not spur it on.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=tristram;374843]My mother in law had a stroke about 4 years ago (nearly to the day). We were there, when she had it. She never came out of it, she laid in a hospital bed for 3 more weeks, unable to move, unable to speak. There isn't a single funny stroke joke out, once you see it happen. [/QUOTE] A prime example of what I was saying about knowing one's audience. Here we have a pretty profilic poster who been around these boards for a long time and how many of us actually knew this? This is where something like Nevermore's tact vs tolerance argument just totally falls apart. It's not just "Oh I have a thinner skin and interpret things more conservatively than Tyler. I need to learn more tolerance for his coarseness." It's a case of folks like Tristam or I have witnessed realities on this subject that are likely just abstractions to Brother Gadzinski. So the horrors are harder to sluff off. Assuming it can be done at all. If it were just that the Jarrett joke were a little morally gray, I might have had a bit of a chuckle too. But online posting is a relatively young form of communication and people need to learn that stuff translates differently in text. You can't convey the tone or spirit of a statement by typing it the same way as you can speaking it. [QUOTE=Tyler Gadzinski;374065]why did Jeff Jarrett go to Japan?[/QUOTE] Here's exactly how it looked. No smiley. Nothing to indicate humor or that no harm was meant. Just a dead sentence we were left to have to try and interpret as a joke. Which as Self noted is not a natural connection. So for people to share the understanding you intend to be light-hearted, you have to do more than type and send in order for it to resonate the way you wish it to. That's not a matter of conservative vs liberal. It's not a matter of thick vs thin skin. It's the nature of the medium he chose to make the joke with. By doing it as haphazardly as he did, he left his purpose for joking up in the air. No conservatism to it. It's simple communication.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=cappyboy;374592]Except aren't you kind of assuming facts not in evidence here. Who said anything about being conservative or squeamish or whatever you want to call it? Who said it needs to be about that?[/Quote] Not at all; you seem to have missed my point entirely. [QUOTE]The point isn't just about the content of the joke. I've heard this kind of humor done ever since the Challenger disaster when folks were making them about Christa McAuliffe and her dandruff problem. (They found her Head & Shoulders on the beach) And I recognize it can be a coping mechanism. So at least for me, it's not so much the content that rankles as the timing.[/QUOTE] All topical jokes work upon timing. So, realistically, it is about the content. Who makes the decision about when a joke becomes acceptable or is it set in a stone? A week after? A month after? Or maybe wait until the joke is no longer topical... [QUOTE]And even then, you have to know your audience. There's a difference between engaging in dark humor to lighten a situation and rubbing salt in people's wounds. This is one of the problems I have with American society in general these days. Harsh behavior is taken to be the same thing as comedy and if you don't like it, you're the one who's seen to have the problem. Fine lines are treated as though they are they are either invisible or like they aren't there. A good comedian isn't just someone who says funny stuff. It's someone who says stuff he knows his audience will find funny. [/QUOTE] And THIS is where my point about tolerance comes in. Why are your needs greater than Tyler's? You say he has to know his audience; you may not know where HE is coming from. He might be a huge Nagata fan and made the joke because it made him smile and feel a bit better. I suppose your way of coping is the only acceptable way... [QUOTE]Dark humor like Tyler's requires extra care on the Internet because it's harder to know your audience online than when they are in the room with you. There is no inflection to text so it's harder to determine intent. Especially when emotions are raw as they are for Nagata at the moment. It's as much the fact Tyler didn't seem to know or care how he'd be recieved before joking that has people reacting as the actual joke. Even a simple smiley would have sufficed. The joke would still technically be in bad taste but at least folks would be better able to see he meant well. I forget which 50's chick singer made the song famous. Whether it was Kitty Kallen or Julie London or someone else in that vein. But the old standard still rings true. Little Things Mean A Lot. If Tyler had shown he understood that and acted accordingly, he probably wouldn't have been flamed like he has been for this joke.[/QUOTE] First off, if Tyler had just included a winking smilie, I don't believe he would have been spared this onslaught. As you say the joke would still be in "bad taste" (whatever that is exactly). Secondly, all dark humour is raw; it is about thick skin vs thin skin or however you want to phrase it. Why? Because humour is personal opinion and online fora are about sharing opinions. Just because you didn't find it funny, that doesn't mean it wasn't. Equally, just because I did, it doesn't mean it was. Can't a disagreement occur without the need for flaming? [QUOTE]This is where something like Nevermore's tact vs tolerance argument just totally falls apart.[/QUOTE] I never mentioned tact versus tolerance; they can co-exist. All I'm saying is that, if you wish Tyler to respect your opinions, then pay him the same respect. For example: [QUOTE=cappyboy;374069]For shame, Tyler. For shame. I understand the temptation but that joke is so wrong. And not in a fun way.[/QUOTE] Is that comment tactful or tolerant or even in the slightest bit polite? No. A simple "Mate, that was a little close to the bone" would have sufficed. Once, again, though, I fear that because Tyler is in the minority it's cool to jump on him. Forgive me, I've just never seen the need for petty squabbling when reasoned conversation is possible. [QUOTE=tristram;374843]My mother in law had a stroke about 4 years ago (nearly to the day). We were there, when she had it. She never came out of it, she laid in a hospital bed for 3 more weeks, unable to move, unable to speak. There isn't a single funny stroke joke out, once you see it happen.[/QUOTE] Trist, your point was much more articulate and not a personal attack and I sympathise greatly. However, friend to friend, don't be too dictatorial. I saw my thirteen year old cousin die of a brain tumour last year. I still find sick mecdical jokes funny. Does it make me a bad person because I prefer to laugh than cry? That's the crux of my point. I'm not having a go at anyone. I just get very bored with every conversation on here having to be quite so adversarial. It seems a real shame when everyone comes across so pleasantly in the main. Quoth The Raven Nevermore

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;374993] And THIS is where my point about tolerance comes in. Why are your needs greater than Tyler's? You say he has to know his audience; you may not know where HE is coming from. He might be a huge Nagata fan and made the joke because it made him smile and feel a bit better.[/QUOTE] And the key point here is who knows where he's coming from with it? He's the one joking so the burden is on him. He has to let us know where he's coming from so we can decide whether we want to laugh with him or not. He has to know there's a wide audience here and that if he doesn't fulfill the burden of relating his point that there will be as many interpretations as they will be readers. [QUOTE=Nevermore;374993]First off, if Tyler had just included a winking smilie, I don't believe he would have been spared this onslaught. As you say the joke would still be in "bad taste" (whatever that is exactly).[/QUOTE] Maybe. Maybe not. But had he included the winking smiley, it would have at least been an indication of intent. And incidentally even though the joke had been in bad taste, if he'd clarified his reason in making it, it might have been funny. Both dimensions can exist in the same joke. [QUOTE=Nevermore;374993]Secondly, all dark humour is raw; it is about thick skin vs thin skin or however you want to phrase it. Why? Because humour is personal opinion and online fora are about sharing opinions. Just because you didn't find it funny, that doesn't mean it wasn't. Equally, just because I did, it doesn't mean it was. Can't a disagreement occur without the need for flaming? [/QUOTE] And once again you nail my point for me with this about humor being all opinion. That's why the burden is on him to make the point of the joke clear. Because there are so many different opinions between what's going to be funny and what's going to be offensive. [QUOTE=Nevermore;374993]Is that comment tactful or tolerant or even in the slightest bit polite? No. A simple "Mate, that was a little close to the bone" would have sufficed. Once, again, though, I fear that because Tyler is in the minority it's cool to jump on him. Forgive me, I've just never seen the need for petty squabbling when reasoned conversation is possible.[/QUOTE] To be fair, maybe not. But he still brought it on himself. It's not that being in the minority makes him cool to jump on. It's that his Jarrett allusion was so cold and so very random. Had his purpose been clear, I probably would have given a response in the neighborhood of your suggestion. I'm not a big fan of what you call petty squabbling either. Which is why I'm so adamant in holding Tyler's feet to the fire on this. Throwing a joke of questionable taste like this without establishing the purpose behind it is a tried and true method for getting people to squabble. I want to know why he feels that necessary at the expense of an honored figure like Nagata. If he'd just come in here and explain his thought process, I'd most likely stand down if it were reasonable.

[Nevermore]

Cappy, for fear of this going round in circles, I'll just make a few quick observations of your post. You seem to base your reasoning for giving Tyler such a hard time on there being a "burden" on him to explain himself. Firstly, he did explain himself explicitly: [QUOTE=Tyler Gadzinski;374182]And someone said it on another thread and I thought it was funny so I thought id say it here to see if you guys thought it was funny.[/QUOTE] He shared a joke; he didn't anticipate such a negative response. Is that so terrible? [QUOTE]...if he'd clarified his reason in making it, it might have been funny. Both dimensions can exist in the same joke.[/QUOTE] This I just don't understand at all. The principle of a double entendre/play on words works on the very premise of equivocation. That's the point - the word has more than one meaning. Thus, read into it as you see fit. When Shakespeare named his play [I]"Much Ado About Nothing?"[/I], was the subtitle [I]"The tudor-slang usage of 'nothing' denotes a reference to sex. Did you see what I did there? Wasn't it clever?"[/I]? Of course not because that would destroy any subtlety, the very idea upon which the pun is based. [QUOTE]To be fair, maybe not. But he still brought it on himself.[/QUOTE] You honestly believe that? Forgive me, it seems a needlessly competitive/childish view. [QUOTE]I'm not a big fan of what you call petty squabbling either.[/QUOTE] But you are when they "bring it upon themselves"? Again, I don't follow. [QUOTE]Which is why I'm so adamant in holding Tyler's feet to the fire on this. Throwing a joke of questionable taste like this without establishing the purpose behind it is a tried and true method for getting people to squabble.[/QUOTE] Perhaps, that's arguable but I do see your point. However, I think "holding one's feet to the fire" is a sure(-fire) way to exacerbate a given situation. Your entire last paragraph seems to work on a premise of "do as I say not as I do". [QUOTE]I want to know why he feels that necessary at the expense of an honored figure like Nagata.[/QUOTE] A joke can be made about someone without it being at their expense. You are, firstly, pre-empting the opinion that Nagata would posess himself and, secondly, assuming that he might even hear it to begin with. [QUOTE] If he'd just come in here and explain his thought process, I'd most likely stand down if it were reasonable.[/QUOTE] ...and not a moment before? Right... I'll figure this is "last word syndrome". Now, before I engage in the very practices I'm advising against, I'll bow-out (hopefully) gracefully. Pursue it as you see fit, Cappy. I just can't see how it's worth the extra agro. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;375195]Cappy, for fear of this going round in circles, I'll just make a few quick observations of your post. Pursue it as you see fit, Cappy. I just can't see how it's worth the extra agro. Quote The Raven Nevermore[/QUOTE] Okay. Then here's what I'll do. I'll call for Adam or someone else with similiar power to come in and lock this thread. You're right that this is turning into a tap-dance and causing a whole lot more aggravation than is necessary. And it doesn't seem ltoo likely we can get back on track at this stage. I'm sure we can get a calmer thread going to continue discussing Nagata's process when things warrant it.