Did Kevin Sullivan Murder Chris Benoit and Family?

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=Wallbanger;400650]Just because there isn't yelling, screaming and profanitites doesn't mean the thread isn't offensive.[/QUOTE] Yeah but I don't think anything outside of the initial post was offensive and, in fairness, that was quoted from an outside source. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[BIGJOSH]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;400320]Everyone want's their "Burger King" religion.[/QUOTE] This is so true...and that'll preach my friend. I don't mean that to condemn anyone, but I believe there is only one way. It's only through the name of Jesus that I have PERSONALLY seen notable miracles. Cancers healed. Limbs grow out. Long standing issues within the body be healed. Peoples lives totally transformed...it's only through the name of Jesus. No offense to anyone you are free to believe what you want. As for the issue of homosexuality (not trying to cause a fuss) why can't someone disagree with a lifestyle, but still love the person? I have an uncle who is a homosexual and while I personally disagree with his lifestyle I still love him. People think that Christians hate homosexuals, while some do, I believe most do not. My Pastor has received death threats within the community for merely saying that he believes homosexuality is sin. He never said they were going to hell, never said that it was some HUGE sin, as a matter of fact said that it was no more less pleasing to God than lying is. He was simply saying "sin is sin". Now I know this doesn't represent the majority of the homosexual community, I'm merely trying to say that hate goes both ways.

[GDE71]

I can't believe in 2008 that people still think being homosexual is a choice.

[Self]

[QUOTE=GDE71;400981]I can't believe in 2008 that people still think being homosexual is a choice.[/QUOTE] I could probably go either way right about now. (Half joking) No Pastor should ever have to apologise for saying Homosexuality is a sin, because in their belief structure it is. No personal opinion goes into that. It just is. It's a rule. God doesn't approve, and we can't change that just because we want to be nice to everyone. If we did, he would become this malleable, fictional character and that would turn the belief structure of an entire people into a joke. As long as they're not ramming it down your throats, Christians have every right to have that opinion. Just as you do yours. However, those Southern dudes who go on rallies and hold up signs, them I could probably shoot in the face. That still a sin? Hmm, I'm probably screwed by a couple of the other ones anyway. I've made my bed, I'll lie in it someday.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=BIGJOSH;400933] As for the issue of homosexuality (not trying to cause a fuss) why can't someone disagree with a lifestyle, but still love the person? I have an uncle who is a homosexual and while I personally disagree with his lifestyle I still love him. People think that Christians hate homosexuals, while some do, I believe most do not. My Pastor has received death threats within the community for merely saying that he believes homosexuality is sin. He never said they were going to hell, never said that it was some HUGE sin, as a matter of fact said that it was no more less pleasing to God than lying is. He was simply saying "sin is sin". Now I know this doesn't represent the majority of the homosexual community, I'm merely trying to say that hate goes both ways.[/QUOTE] Bravura Brother Josh. Well said. I honestly don't get this either. Christians are supposed to hate the sin but love the sinner. It's a shame that many of the more visible "faces" of the religion don't seem to get that. But that doesn't seem to me to be a valid reason for broad brushing all Christians. It kinda reminds me of the father character on Roc. You know, Charles S. Dutton's black family comedy on Fox back in the mid 90's. Roc's dad was closed-minded and virulently racist against white people as any member of the KKK has ever been toward his race. How is it that we can call out false prophet Christians for their hatred of gays but when folks bash Christianity out of hand we let it slide? Irrational hatred isn't a one way street. It occurs on both sides of the issue and it needs to be shouted down and marginalized regardless of which side is doing it.

[alden]

I think this might want to be renamed the hot button thread... lets see we have deal with chris benoit relgion homosexuality and now race! lol, you get puppy kicking and the best way to steal candy from a baby and we are set.

[Steeldogfan]

[QUOTE=GDE71;400981]I can't believe in 2008 that people still think being homosexual is a choice.[/QUOTE] I must chime in here if I may. I find it interesting that if a person professes himself as a Christian, that somehow he is out of touch with society. As a professing Christian, I believe that must form my belief based on (A) the Bible, be it the King James Version, or the New American Bible, otherwise known as the Catholic Bible, and (B) my own core beliefs. As far as Homosexuality is concerned, I found a great artical ( [url]http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/homosex.htm[/url] ) which nails it down pretty well. I believe that you should hate the sin and love the sinner, and part of that is giving the messege, as hard as it may be to face, that Homosexuality is, infact, a choice. ( [url]http://www.progressiveu.org/133116-homosexuality-is-against-natural-law[/url] ) Satanist, no matter what branch of that tree you wish to climb up in, claim to honor "Natural Law". If that be the case, then Homosexuality goes against every precept of "Natural Law". ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law[/url] ) It also ironic that, in our formative years, we have no problem that, if you have a branch, you are a boy, if not, you are a girl. But as we grow older, then that becomes blurred, and all of a sudden, we question what we are. Part of my core belief system is that it is un-natural for men to lay down with men, and women to lay down with women. Not only is it against my own belief system, but it is condemed again and again in the Holy Scriptures. But I digress, The opinion I have of the artical which started this thread is that there is no proof that Kevin Sullivan did this deed, the evidence is there to support the murder/suicide case. So that is where I stand. Just as Van Zant said in the song, Help Somebody-"Stick to your gun if you believe in something no matter what, cause it's better to be hated for who you are than loved for someone you're not".

[GDE71]

No one except a masochist would "choose" to be a homosexual. For the record, I'm straight. It's genetic. You either are straight or you're homosexual or you're bisexual. If you believe in God, then you must believe that God made homosexuality. Oh wait, that can't exist in your belief structure. Religion=Fail

[Self]

When stealing candy from babies, I find pure force is best. Now normally, I'm all for cunning, intricate plans, but if I want candy bad enough to steal from babies, I doubt I have time to hire a hot air balloon. Just grab it, ignore the crying, and run if there are any cops around. What was the other one? Puppy kicking... Golf Shoes. They just feel better to me, during the follow through.

[Steeldogfan]

[QUOTE=GDE71;401238]No one except a masochist would "choose" to be a homosexual. For the record, I'm straight. It's genetic. You either are straight or you're homosexual or you're bisexual. If you believe in God, then you must believe that God made homosexuality. Oh wait, that can't exist in your belief structure. Religion=Fail[/QUOTE] 1) Not so. May I suggest that you read the following- [url]http://creationwiki.org/Homosexuality[/url] 2) I am straight as well. 3) Just to highlight a point in the above artical: (Genetics: the view that a gene triggers homosexuality. However, this view has several problems. First, the gene has not been identified, so this view is not science, but mere speculation. Secondly, statistical studies give strong evidence that homosexuality is not caused by genetics, but is influenced by environment. For example, research has shown that adoptive brothers are more likely to both be homosexuals than the biological brothers, who share half their genes. In the journal Science it is reported that, "this . . . suggests that there is no genetic component, but rather an environmental component shared in families" (Science, Vol. 262, page 2063, December 24, 1993). [7][8] Finally, even if there were a genetic causation to the behavior, that would not still not make it acceptable. We all have the predisposition to sin. Being genetically predisposed to a certain attribute does not make the attribute any less harmful. The real issue is not whether it is genetic, but whether it is harmful.) 4) A Bible passage, if I may: Romans 1:21-27 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." But, if you are looking for something to hang your hat on- [url]http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/transcript/satansummary.htm[/url] Again, it's better to be hated for who you are than loved for someone you're not. And to add, sometimes when you draw a line in the sand, you come up against those who want to cross it.

[GDE71]

I can't convince you that your thinking is flawed as much as you can't convince me that my thinking is flawed. However, I'm much more rational in my thoughts and you are much more irrational in yours. If I told you I had an imaginary friend named Johnny Chirstopher and he was the son of God, you would think I was nucking futs. Yes I capitalize God out of respect for your views, even though I think you and other religious folks are nucking futs.

[Steeldogfan]

[QUOTE=GDE71;401263]I can't convince you that your thinking is flawed as much as you can't convince me that my thinking is flawed. However, I'm much more rational in my thoughts and you are much more irrational in yours. If I told you I had an imaginary friend named Johnny Chirstopher and he was the son of God, you would think I was nucking futs. Yes I capitalize God out of respect for your views, even though I think you and other religious folks are nucking futs.[/QUOTE] I agree with your first statement, since we both believe what we believe, and that is the way it is. However, I must call you to task about my thoughts being irational. How so? And why the hostility? I do not show hostility towards others at all. If I met you on the street, and you asked me what keeps me going through the day, and I tell you that I am a Child of God, how is that iratiional? Or even hostial? The number one belief that many Christians miss, and many non-Christians do not see, is that of love. You must love those with whom you come in contact with. And it is out of that love that I have to say that sin is sin, and that if you die in your sins, you go to a place called Hell, and suffer eternal torment and damnation forever and ever. Again, how is that irational or hostial? Is it irational or hostial to tell someone that they are about to step on a rattlesnake? Or that they are about to fall off a cliff? Or to get off the tracks because a train is comming? The great thing about this country and (hopefully) this great forum, it that everyone has diverse ideas, and that we can disagree and be civil about it.

[alden]

this has been a civil thread so lets not start instulting peoples beliefes ;). as for homosexuality i for one think it is one thing that i will never truly understand. Would i care if my son is homosexual I am going to be man enough to admit it but yes i would. Would i love him any less.....no way. Would i tell him he is wrong? Again no way. A person is going to do what they want when it comes down to it. I don't know if homosexuality is automaticly unchristian. I have three very close gay friends who are very religious. Their have been a number of homosexual priests lately and while i do fell that it is something that is against the bible i don't think anyone can say they have not done something that is against there own core values *relgious or personal*. Basicly, reither you belive in a afterlife *most relgions do, you will have to answer for everything* if you don't believe in anything then you have to deal with your own actions on a daily basis. If you believe in God, then you must believe that God made homosexuality. Oh wait, that can't exist in your belief structure. That is a little black and white isen't it? That is like saying everything god created you have to agree with. So that is like saying well, god created the ability to make weapons so you have to be pro gun. Or god created the earth quakes and flash floods so they have to be good even though they kill thousends. There is something called natural progression. I don't believe that every single action in the world is from the hand of god. If so then I would think there would be no war, famon death and so forth.

[Steeldogfan]

[QUOTE=alden;401281]this has been a civil thread so lets not start instulting peoples beliefes ;). as for homosexuality i for one think it is one thing that i will never truly understand. Would i care if my son is homosexual I am going to be man enough to admit it but yes i would. Would i love him any less.....no way. Would i tell him he is wrong? Again no way. A person is going to do what they want when it comes down to it. I don't know if homosexuality is automaticly unchristian. I have three very close gay friends who are very religious. Their have been a number of homosexual priests lately and while i do fell that it is something that is against the bible i don't think anyone can say they have not done something that is against there own core values *relgious or personal*. Basicly, reither you belive in a afterlife *most relgions do, you will have to answer for everything* if you don't believe in anything then you have to deal with your own actions on a daily basis. If you believe in God, then you must believe that God made homosexuality. Oh wait, that can't exist in your belief structure. That is a little black and white isen't it? That is like saying everything god created you have to agree with. So that is like saying well, god created the ability to make weapons so you have to be pro gun. Or god created the earth quakes and flash floods so they have to be good even though they kill thousends. There is something called natural progression. I don't believe that every single action in the world is from the hand of god. If so then I would think there would be no war, famon death and so forth.[/QUOTE] Out of civility, and with all due respect. How can God create something and then condem it time after time? I do not understand that point. If I point a gun at someone, pull the trigger, and kill them, I would be a hypocrite to come back and say that murder is wrong. If God created homosexuality, then why did he burn Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19? In Leviticus 18:22 and 24 homosexuality is described as an "abomination" and "defiling." In Leviticus 20:13 it is again described as an "abomination" and worthy of death! Deuteronomy 23:17 forbade the presence of a "sodomite" in Israel. And in I Kings 14, 15, and 22, the removal of male prostitutes in Israel is viewed as a sign of spiritual reformation. Um, yeah, I guess that is pretty black and white of myself. In Romans 1:18-32, the Apostle Paul condemned the practice in the severest of terms: "unclean," "dishonorable," "vile," "unseemly," "wicked," "unrighteous," and "against nature." Of particular importance in this passage is the Apostle's reference to the fact that homosexual activity is contrary to nature. Nature itself teaches that the practice is wrong; we should know it intuitively. Anyway, I do not show anything but love to everyone.

[alden]

i might have missed the point. I don't believe god did create homosexuality. Just like i don't belive he created car's computers, medicians, most diseases and alot of stuff in the world.

[Steeldogfan]

[QUOTE=alden;401321]i might have missed the point. I don't believe god did create homosexuality. Just like i don't belive he created car's computers, medicians, most diseases and alot of stuff in the world.[/QUOTE] My bad. :o

[GDE71]

I'm gonna bail on this thread to save my wasting the rest of my night running into a brick wall. Everyone enjoy their night, as I will mine. I disagree with some of you and that's cool. What keeps me going each day is that I usually have a blast living the way I live.

[alden]

This is all that most people want. I am glad you are happy with your life man. Not alot of people can say that. To what ever makes people happy be it relgion, friends, fammily or what ever......cheers!

[keefmoon]

Sorry to bring up a relatively old topic, AND THIS ABSOLUTELY 100% IS NOT INTENDED TO START AN ARGUMENT AND IS JUST DUE TO ME BEING INTERESTED. Even though I'm not religious myself I am interested in other peoples views, and want to point out I have nothing but respect for all religious views and the people that hold them. Also bare in mind that I have a fairly grade school understanding of religion, and if I oversimplify things this is just through a lack of knowledge. I don't mean offence. If a criminal, who has never been religious and has spent a life of sin, gets up to the pearly gates and is genuinely apologetic for everything he has done and accepts God as his lord, he will go to Heaven, correct? However, if a very religious man who has spent his whole life doing good deeds and doing nothing sinful*, apart from the fact that he happens to be homosexual, but isn't apologetic towards his homosexuality as he feels he has nothing to apologise for, will he go to Hell? Again, this is just for my interest so I can gain a better level of understanding and isn't meant t start an argument, and I hope this will be answered in a calm and sensible manner like most of this thread has been, first post aside. *I'm using a Biblical description of homosexuality, not my own EDIT: Actually, I think it would be better if someone were to answer this via PM just to avoid an argument or risking saying anything that could bring the GDS name down. Besides, if I never see this thread title again it won't be too soon.

[Shmoe]

Yeah. That article was retarded. Is Kevin Sullivan even a satanist? Where's the hard proof of that? And anyways, the authorities have scouted it out and have concluded Benoit acted alone in the killings. I thought at the beginning it was a bitter pill to swallow. Now, I just think the guy was messed up and if he killed, than he's a complete waste of humanity too. Keefmoon, here is my reply to your question, but it will have nothing offensive in it or hopefully cause arguement. My mother used to take me to church years back and I still remember some things about it. From my understanding, if a criminal repents and asks for forgiveness, God/Jesus will forgive him of his sins and he would be granted a life in heaven because he realises what he's done is wrong. Again, the man would have to be genuinely apologetic and it is my guess that God could tell if a man is true or not. My older brother is a homosexual, and he read the opening of the Bible which he tells me basically told him he was going to hell. He was baptised and thought he was religious before he 'found himself' but after reading that and knowing he was a homosexual decided he wasn't religious as he couldn't believe it anything that critised him in that way. It's my understanding a lot of homosexual people will not be religious, but those who will should not have to repent anything to get into heaven. Living with one, I find nothing wrong with them and if that is the Christian arguement, even though 'God loves everyone equally', then it's yet another contradiction. If God loves everyone, then technically everyone, if they so wanted, were truly sorry or were religious, could be accepted into heaven, homosexual or not. That's what I think, if I believed in God. Which I don't. But that is my brief understanding.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=keefmoon;402471]Sorry to bring up a relatively old topic, AND THIS ABSOLUTELY 100% IS NOT INTENDED TO START AN ARGUMENT AND IS JUST DUE TO ME BEING INTERESTED. Even though I'm not religious myself I am interested in other peoples views, and want to point out I have nothing but respect for all religious views and the people that hold them. Also bare in mind that I have a fairly grade school understanding of religion, and if I oversimplify things this is just through a lack of knowledge. I don't mean offence. If a criminal, who has never been religious and has spent a life of sin, gets up to the pearly gates and is genuinely apologetic for everything he has done and accepts God as his lord, he will go to Heaven, correct? However, if a very religious man who has spent his whole life doing good deeds and doing nothing sinful*, apart from the fact that he happens to be homosexual, but isn't apologetic towards his homosexuality as he feels he has nothing to apologise for, will he go to Hell? Again, this is just for my interest so I can gain a better level of understanding and isn't meant t start an argument, and I hope this will be answered in a calm and sensible manner like most of this thread has been, first post aside. *I'm using a Biblical description of homosexuality, not my own EDIT: Actually, I think it would be better if someone were to answer this via PM just to avoid an argument or risking saying anything that could bring the GDS name down. Besides, if I never see this thread title again it won't be too soon.[/QUOTE] All sinner's were/are forgave throught Jesus (Hence the term "Savior"). Since heaven would not (theoretically) have anything to do with the body, it's not like anyone will be practicing any bodily functions there, purely spiritual. A sin is a sin. NO one is without sin. If you had to be sinless to get in, no one would get in. That's the problem with people that have a problem with Christianity. They don't understand that MOST people that practice the religion do not want ANYONE to go to hell. Wouldn't wish it on any human being. Therefore prayer for people and ourselves, for forgiveness is our best, and bassically, only way of repentance. The point I made earlier, about "Burger King" religion, was what I think everyone wants to do. For example.. THere are people I have seen outright tell homosexuals that they are sinner's... Yet they dont' realise that their drinking, doing drugs, swearing in the lords name, and various other "Sin's" They themselves are guilty of, are just as bad (in theory). There is a top 10 list, that you should try to follow. There are many, as well as various inspirational parts in the bible, that will help you follow these rules, and help you with any of the temptations you might have. I've said this before... But I'll repeat it now. Just because something feels "Good" or "Right", does not mean your "Right" being "good". It might feel really good to find a couple hundred dollars in some old wallet on the train tracks. However, it doesn't mean it's right to keep it. Can you withstand that temptation? That's where the talk about how it's much harder for someone with "Rich's" to make it, then it is for someone that has nothing. That someone that has nothing, and does not give in to temptation, is sacrificing much more then a , say "Millionaire". Now.. Let's say said millionaire has accidentally killed someone, and could hide this forever. This person saying "Hey, I did it" is bassically throwing all that they have out the window, and is NOT giving into temptation. As for Christians. The strongest belief in Christians is that we all SIN, and that Jesus died for our sins. This is the basis for being "Saved". Those that are saved are not without "SIN", nor are they made to be saints, etc. Your saved simply because you believe in Jesus, and him dieing on the cross for your sins. YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED. You just have to believe that you are. You cannot live a life of sin, and expect a free pass. You must work on what you can, to get there. Not everyone can resist temptations, and some temptations are much stronger for some, then other's. GOD knows this. That's why the comment about the rich guy/poor guy in the bible. It's not representative of just rich and poor, but of weak and strong, smart and ignorant, tall and short, etc. Opposing force's have different equal temptations. One might be homosexuality, the other sleeps with 10 woman a year. Both are sinning. Both are forgiven (weather they think it's wrong or not). As long as they believe, and do what they think is Gods will.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Shmoe;402476]Yeah. That article was retarded. Is Kevin Sullivan even a satanist? Where's the hard proof of that? And anyways, the authorities have scouted it out and have concluded Benoit acted alone in the killings. I thought at the beginning it was a bitter pill to swallow. Now, I just think the guy was messed up and if he killed, than he's a complete waste of humanity too. Keefmoon, here is my reply to your question, but it will have nothing offensive in it or hopefully cause arguement. My mother used to take me to church years back and I still remember some things about it. From my understanding, if a criminal repents and asks for forgiveness, God/Jesus will forgive him of his sins and he would be granted a life in heaven because he realises what he's done is wrong. Again, the man would have to be genuinely apologetic and it is my guess that God could tell if a man is true or not. My older brother is a homosexual, and he read the opening of the Bible which he tells me basically told him he was going to hell. He was baptised and thought he was religious before he 'found himself' but after reading that and knowing he was a homosexual decided he wasn't religious as he couldn't believe it anything that critised him in that way. It's my understanding a lot of homosexual people will not be religious, but those who will should not have to repent anything to get into heaven. Living with one, I find nothing wrong with them and if that is the Christian arguement, even though 'God loves everyone equally', then it's yet another contradiction. If God loves everyone, then technically everyone, if they so wanted, were truly sorry or were religious, could be accepted into heaven, homosexual or not. That's what I think, if I believed in God. Which I don't. But that is my brief understanding.[/QUOTE] Some people find nothing wrong with Drugs. Some find nothing wrong with womanizing, some find nothing wrong with pimping or hooking. Just because YOU Personally don't find anything wrong with it, doesn't make it right. IT also doesn't mean because it's wrong, that someone is going to hell. You know, it's a sin to cheat, steal, lie, etc. Everyone lives in sin. You can still make it, it's the journey that matters. You might fall down, but as the song goes, you get back up again, and you keep trying. Some things you cannot live without, and GOD will know this. Your sin might be less then mine, but God can Forgive BOTH of us, and through Jesus, we can BOTH make it to heaven. I'm just saying, that's how I feel being a Christian.

[Shmoe]

Some people may see homosexuality is wrong. Having lived with one for 5 years, they are people like the rest of us, they just have different preferences. As a straight guy, I have no problem hanging out with a homosexual guy. And yes, it can be percieved as a sin, however, if people see that as being a sin over thievery, adultery etc. (which I believe, homosexuality is mentioned earlier in the Bible then the ten commandments and that list of rules), then that seems backwards to me. It may be my personal opinion that homosexuality is not wrong. But that people basically discriminate these people because they think differently you too is intolerance and I think that discrimination of them should be a sin. Again, just putting my opinion out there. Your opinion is just as valid to me as anyone elses and I feel my opinion too is valid. A lot of people may think from my point, and many may think by yours. I have no problems with any person, no matter race, religion, sexual ortientation, drug taker and all of the above. I just think my opinion is valid enough to be heard. And, just to stay slightly on topic, I've looked through Satanism going through a Gothic phase about 2 years ago...and it snapped me out of it. Every last rule is completely backwards. I'm strongly doubtful that Kevin Sullivan is a high ranking member of the Satanist church. I'm strongly doubtful that anyone but Chris Benoit acted in these killings, and it seems the authorities agree with me.

[Self]

I just wrote a huge thing about my life philosophy and how it relates, but... long-winded, so I started over. In my opinion, God (if he's real, I have no clue) doesn't hate homosexuals. Like any parent, he loves all of his children, but doesn't like some of the things they do. For example, my parents hate that I have long hair, but they still love me. If I got a haircut, they'd love me a bit more, and let me come to business functions. That's what I'm guessing God is. You can understand why he doesn't like the homosexual thing though. He made these body parts for a specific purpose, and we went and figured out something else to do with them, which stops us using them in the intended way. We outsmarted him :) I'd be pissed too. Cue lightning bolt...

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Shmoe;402491] But that people basically discriminate these people because they think differently you too is intolerance and I think that discrimination of them should be a sin.[/QUOTE] I aggree. A Christian is supposed to love, not discriminate. As was said before, Love the sinner, not the sin. Just because your friend is a homosexual, is no reason to discriminate or treat him unfairly. You don't have to love the lifestyle, but you should love your friend.