Hall of Immortals

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=D-Lyrium;427823]That's not what I'm getting at. A human player could simulate the Royal Rumble fine, make a tournament title and have it on the line in a Royal Rumble match. Then the winner goes to Wrestlemania and headlines that. So that's a major title win and a legendary event headlined. No problemo. The AI, however, can't do either. It doesn't know it's supposed to hold a Royal Rumble, so the closest you can get is a tournament, and even then it doesn't know the winner is supposed to go to Wrestlemania. Hmmm... if the Royal Rumble event was set as a legendary event, would all 60 participants get points towards the HOI? :p[/quote] You could, however, set it up so that at least the prior winners would get credit for it when determining whether they should be inducted into the HoI, right?

[D-Lyrium]

You could, yes. But then, like I said, that's a bit unfair on future winners isn't it? :p If you won the 2009 Royal Rumble and retired just one major title victory away from the HoI, and someone who won the Royal Rumble before the HOI was created got credit for his win, you'd be kinda annoyed. :p Yes, I work for the Union For Fictional Characters Rights. (Ahaha, that acronym is actually hilarious if you read it aloud in an Irish accent. Might have to use that).

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;427850]You could, yes. But then, like I said, that's a bit unfair on future winners isn't it? :p If you won the 2009 Royal Rumble and retired just one major title victory away from the HoI, and someone who won the Royal Rumble before the HOI was created got credit for his win, you'd be kinda annoyed. :p Yes, I work for the Union For Fictional Characters Rights. (Ahaha, that acronym is actually hilarious if you read it aloud in an Irish accent. Might have to use that).[/QUOTE] Ok, this point has officially become trivial. Tom Brandi also just called and told me to make sure mod makers include his 5 seconds in the 1998 Royal Rumble for a HOI point.

[stevegrind]

Kobashi certainly deserves to be in it as well as Misawa, Kawada, Muta, and countless others. As far as Benoit he should have enough to get it, the game might not think so but in the real world he does.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=stevegrind;427870]As far as Benoit he should have enough to get it, the game might not think so but in the real world he does.[/QUOTE] It the Hall Of [B]Immortals[/B], not a Hall Of Fame - the title itself should make it clear that it's meant only for the very cream of the crop. It's meant for guys like Hogan, Flair and Austin. Regardless of your thoughts on them personally, there's no way that Benoit, Guerrero and co are even close to being on that level. They were extremely gifted in the ring, had some success, but there's an enormous gulf between them and the truly top-tier wrestlers.

[Rocksta]

Out of the stuff you guys didn't mention. Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Shinya Hashimoto, Jumbo Tsuruta, Satoru Sayama, Akira Maeda, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Riki Choshu, Tatsumi Fujinami and Karl Gotch

[Christ]

so how is everyone using the "legendary matches in a promotion" bit? are you going on your own personal views or is there a generally accepted rule as to what makes a legendary match? it'd be nice to know how other people are using this as what could be a legendary match to one person might be nothing to another person...

[Jennie Bomb]

I'd say that it depends on how "Legendary" is defined. At the moment, assuming it's the equivalent of an A* match, then I'm using the short list of Dave Meltzer's 5* matches, as it's an extremely elite list that more than meets the legendary requirement.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=alden;427664]I think the world titles alone would allow flair in, and plus i think he has reached "icon" status at some point.[/QUOTE] icon status is A or above popularity in one country. If Flair hasn't made it to that popularity level, then you can't give him that accomplishment can you?

[Jennie Bomb]

I would have thought the general reaction to his retirement demonstrates that he's clearly achieved that.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;427912]I would have thought the general reaction to his retirement demonstrates that he's clearly achieved that.[/QUOTE] Flair had to retire to get the kind of reaction one time, that guys like Austin, Rock, Hogan and Bret get every time they make an appearance. Clearly that's not the case. However, other accomplishments would certainly get him in.

[The Bus]

IMO there's nothing unclear about Flair reaching the icon level. Even though he wasn't on the top of his game for the last year or decade or something, he still is a legend, IMO.

[Michael Wayne]

without a doubt. I just don't think when you pair them up, Flair stands on the same popularity level as guys like The Rock, Hulk Hogan or a Steve Austin. Or even Bret in Canada. Most of Flair's popularity is based upon respect of past accomplishments. It's the reason they still chant "WHOO!" at chops.

[BurningHamster]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;427927]without a doubt. I just don't think when you pair them up, Flair stands on the same popularity level as guys like The Rock, Hulk Hogan or a Steve Austin. Or even Bret in Canada. Most of Flair's popularity is based upon respect of past accomplishments. It's the reason they still chant "WHOO!" at chops.[/QUOTE] I respectfully disagree. Rock, Hogan, Austin, Bret. All WWF/E men for the bulk of their careers, Flair wasn't apart from a period around '92. I think the environment plays a part in popularity, the people who go to the average WWE show now are fans of 2008 WWE who probably can't remember having seen Flair in his prime so it's little wonder they don't go apes*** when they see him, whereas they would for some more familiar workers. Plus, Flair still made regular appearances up until a short time ago unlike the others you mentioned . If not now, then I believe at some point Ric Flair would have had iconic popularity. It may have dropped off a little (or perhaps his momentum has) but I still believe Ric Flair is around the same level as the others you mentioned. Definately ahead of Bret Hart. It's all a moot point anyway since Flair's other accomplishments would see him in, but gosh darn it I ain't gonna sit here while people knock the Nature Boy. :p Bret Hart indeed!

[D-Lyrium]

The other thing you neglect to mention is that while most of the other examples were babyfaces for most of their career, Flair spend the majority of it as a heel. They don't call him the Dirtiest Player In The Game because he was mediocre and got luke-warm reactions. :p The phrase, I think you'll find, is "reach[b]ed[/b]" National Icon status. How anyone can deny Flair that, I'll never know. When you're still putting asses in seats 10 years+ after your prime, let's see what happens when I try and tell YOU you're not a national icon :P

[alden]

After going back and actully "researching" flairs stuff a few things came up. 1) every title before his first one in wwf in 91 * i believe it was 91* technical would not be used before it was not for a national or larger company *i don't believe nwa/wcw would be called national before that* 2) Was starcage legendary at that point? and he technicaly never "headlined* mania, in the year he fought savage it was hogan vs Vicious was the main event. So how many of his title wins were after 91 and to be honest after 94 he did not get alot of main events at starcage hogan did. I think he is just one of the guys who are "in". I think he with out question reached the "icon" status pre-hogan in wcw.

[D-Lyrium]

First of all, Adam stated on the last page that Flair very much deserves a spot. Secondly, how can you seriously suggest that the NWA World Heavyweight Championship isn't a major world title? For decades, it was THE most important title in the world. Think about what you've just said :P And it was 1992, the year he won the Rumble (he debuted in '91). As for Starrcade... probably not Legendary. Maybe Historical, which is all that is needed. It did, after all, start *before* Wrestlemania, and held the same place on the NWA/WCW's calendar. It just wasn't as heavily hyped. Good point, though. Remember that not everyone has to meet the modern criteria to get a place. Before the WWF came along, wrestling was a lot different. It'd be nearly (possibly "actually") impossible for anyone before 1990 or so to get anywhere near the HOI following the criteria in the game, that doesn't mean the Flairs and Inokis don't deserve a spot.

[Jennie Bomb]

PWI recognises Flair as having won 16 World titles, and that's probably the benchmark. The NWA title most certainly counts, since he was the champion of an umbrella organisation that, had it been one single company, would probably have been bigger than WWE has ever been. Add to those his almost unparalleled body of work (including 6 5* matches according to Dave Meltzer), his headline performances at legendary shows like Starrcade and Clash of the Champions (I include this because pre-WCW, CotC was arguably more important and the flagship of the NWA and JCP), many years in which he was THE outstanding wrestler (he has 8 Wrestling Observer Newsletter Wrestler of the Year awards, including 5 straight, more than anyone else, and is so successful the award is NAMEd after him) and the fact that Flair is arguably one of the three most recognisable wrestlers in this history of the American wrestling business (with Hogan and Andre, IMO), aqnd you really can't deny that Ric Flair easily meets the minimum requirements for entry into the HoI.

[Megaman0]

[QUOTE=Greyhound;427668]How about using the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame? [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame[/url][/QUOTE] I would say Booker T should be in that...and in any H.O.I. in eventual mods...

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=Megaman0;428042]I would say Booker T should be in that...and in any H.O.I. in eventual mods...[/quote] Why would a mediocre main eventer from the dying days of WCW who can't even get a main event push in TNA of all places be allowed to visit a Hall of the Immortals, let alone get inducted?

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;428044]Why would a mediocre main eventer from the dying days of WCW who can't even get a main event push in TNA of all places be allowed to visit a Hall of the Immortals, let alone get inducted?[/QUOTE] considering he headlined several historic ppvs like Summerslam with the likes of The Rock, considering his WCW title reigns, and the fact that when mentioning some of The Rock's best matches, that match certainly falls within the top six. If after all that, the game doesn't seem him as qualified, then oh well.

[Adam Ryland]

:confused: People are still not really getting the [B]immortal[/B] part of the title, and I'm really struggling to think how much clearer I can make it; it's meant to be for the absolute elite, the best that the industry has ever seen. We're talking maybe a handful of guys in total. [I]It's not a hall of fame.[/I] Booker T shouldn't even be getting mentioned as a distant possibility - he wouldn't even qualify as a legend, let alone being called "immortal".

[Jaded]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;428060]:confused: People are still not really getting the [B]immortal[/B] part of the title, and I'm really struggling to think how much clearer I can make it.[/QUOTE] It might be easier just to list the handful of guys who would make it, Adam. Or just release the demo a week early to distract everyone from this thread. (Hey, it had to be worth a try...)

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Jaded;428064]It might be easier just to list the handful of guys who would make it, Adam.[/QUOTE] Use the Sesame Street rule. Hogan. Austin. Flair. [I]One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others By the time I finish my song?[/I] If the song is true and your guy doesn't belong, he's got no business being in the HOI. Anyone who thinks Booker T fits in that group needs their head examining. This post has been brought to you by the number 4, the letters A and R, and the concept of common sense.

[W3LSHY]

I am still wondering why the hell The Undertaker hasn't been mentioned :confused: