The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[jwt13]

Im pretty sure CM Punk is still a "main eventer" and the whole feud with Truth is to push Truth to main-event status. Which IMO is stupid because Truth is in his 40's isnt he?

 

so is batista and he was close to fourtys when he got his big push but I think R Truth is like 38. And I dont think CM Punk is or will be a main eventer any time soon because of Takers backstage stuff.

[PeterHilton]

Im pretty sure CM Punk is still a "main eventer" ..

 

He's not.

 

He's still being featured somewhat and given decent TV time..but he's not being used as a main selling point. His whole "straight edge" deal is a midcard storyline.

[lazorbeak]

so is batista and he was close to fourtys when he got his big push but I think R Truth is like 38. And I dont think CM Punk is or will be a main eventer any time soon because of Takers backstage stuff.

 

God why do people bring up total nonsense internet rumors as though they were undeniable facts? Punk dropped the title because Undertaker is a more bankable star going into the lead-in for Wrestlemania.

[jwt13]

God why do people bring up total nonsense internet rumors as though they were undeniable facts? Punk dropped the title because Undertaker is a more bankable star going into the lead-in for Wrestlemania.

 

hasn't main event since, and has even got a rematc for i cant recall but idont think he did.

[lazorbeak]

hasn't main event since, and has even got a rematc for i cant recall but idont think he did.

 

Oh so total unrelated facts support completely made-up nonsense? This just in, Phoenix, Arizona is protected from hurricanes because a magic unicorn protects it! Need proof? Zero hurricanes in Phoenix!

[Undertaker666]

But my initial reaction to Vince's swerve on Brett on the January 4th show was ... "figures."

 

Of course. "Tune in next week to see what happens..."

 

I have no problem with another 'Taker vs HBK match at 'Mania just as long as HBK doesn't end the streak.

 

Personally, I don't think it should be ended...ever. If they're going to break it then they should make a new star while doing so, not have an already established name do it.

 

HBK "retired" Ric Flair, and if the guff last year is to be believed, 'Taker has only beaten HBK once in all the time they're been in the WWF/WWE. No way HBK should be the one to break the streak.

 

Guest hosts need to stop asap even the good ones for two big reasons: Continuity and taking away time and attention/focus from the actually contracted talent. It's not helping in the ratings anymore so plz E stop it. There are more reasons but those are my main gripes.

 

WWE are using guest hosts for one reason, not for ratings, but because they get mainstream press coverage.

 

I just don't see the E putting the young guys over Cena, Trips, or HBK any time soon.

 

And neither should they. An established star shouldn't put over the younger guys unless the younger guys have proven themselves.

 

Show's in a bad place since he's one of the few 'monster' type heels they have who can actually work a match.

 

Oddly enough, I prefer Big Show as a babyface. I think he pulls off being a "comedy giant" much better than him being a monster heel.

 

So you completely extinguish Kofi's heat and momentum that you've spent the last 6 months building?

 

I'm still not sure why they're pushing Kofi. I'm just not seeing what everyone else seems to.

 

So how do you rebuild Khali to make him credible again if he's jobbing?

 

Kane has jobbed over and over... yet he's still booked as a monster heel.

 

And do what with Cody? I don't think Cody has his father's gifts so he and Ted are a package deal.

 

Simple, release Cody. I can't help but think of Sylvester The Cat every time I hear him on the microphone. "Sufferin' succotash!"

 

From what i've seen Ted is the better one on the mic, has the better physique and is better in the ring. No reason for him to be lumped with Sylvester.

 

Im pretty sure CM Punk is still a "main eventer" and the whole feud with Truth is to push Truth to main-event status. Which IMO is stupid because Truth is in his 40's isnt he?

 

Not sure how "R Truth" is even in the WWE, he had a shot way back when as K-Kwik (or whatever he was called) and flopped. Then they bring him back with pretty much the same gimmick - "Rapping on the way to the ring etc."

[jwt13]

Oh so total unrelated facts support completely made-up nonsense? This just in, Phoenix, Arizona is protected from hurricanes because a magic unicorn protects it! Need proof? Zero hurricanes in Phoenix!

 

I just know the story broke that Punk disrespected Taker he droped the title THAT night which he was originaly to regin according to more than one source and ever since that night hasn't main evented since. Take it or leave it but seems kinda funny that if it want true they would have at least gave him a rematch which I cant recall them doing. And now he's loseing dark matches in PPV's to R Truth.

[PeterHilton]

And neither should they. An established star shouldn't put over the younger guys unless the younger guys have proven themselves.

 

You know this is the booking philosophy that closed WCW down, right?

[Undertaker666]

You know this is the booking philosophy that closed WCW down, right?

 

To an extent. WCW didn't try to create stars and instead relied on the bigger names. You can rely on your bigger names to draw, but you also need to build up people over time on the lower parts of the card so they can eventually move their way up.

 

If I debuted on RAW next week, would you expect me to beat Cena/HHH/HBK within a month/few months?

[PeterHilton]

To an extent. WCW didn't try to create stars and instead relied on the bigger names. You can rely on your bigger names to draw, but you also need to build up people over time on the lower parts of the card so they can eventually move their way up.

 

If I debuted on RAW next week, would you expect me to beat Cena/HHH/HBK within a month/few months?

 

No..but I don't think anyone is expecting performers who have been there a 'few months' to beat Cena, HBK, etc.

 

But this isn't the 80s. The attention span of the audience isn't as great as it once was. You can't wait YEARS to pull the trigger on a guy...if guys like Morrison, Punk, MVP are over..push them into the main event.

[Hyde Hill]

 

WWE are using guest hosts for one reason, not for ratings, but because they get mainstream press coverage.

 

And that mainstream press coverage has resulted in what? The WWE seeming a more legitimite company? No. Wrestling/Sports Entertainment becoming cool or at least accepted again? No. Higher ppv buyrates or ratings? (bare number wise not income wise.) No. Less time for all those midcarders to grow into at least upper midcarders? Yes.

 

If getting mainstream press is the goal that is fine, but if it doesn't bring any results at all it is not serving its purpose.

 

As an aside you know what got a lot of mainstream press? David Arquette and Katie Vick lolz.

[Undertaker666]

No..but I don't think anyone is expecting performers who have been there a 'few months' to beat Cena, HBK, etc.

 

But this isn't the 80s. The attention span of the audience isn't as great as it once was. You can't wait YEARS to pull the trigger on a guy...if guys like Morrison, Punk, MVP are over..push them into the main event.

 

True. But we need to realise a lot of the stars of today (Kane, HHH, Edge etc.) were created due to a need by WWE (then WWF) to create stars to compete with the names of WCW. If you compare WCW to WWF during the Monday Night Wars based on name value alone then WCW had things in the bag, until of course certain names (Stone Cold, HHH, The Rock etc.) began to rise.

 

WCW had the majority of guys which WWF made big stars of (Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall, Rude, Hennig, Hart etc.), but then WWF also took guys from WCW who were being under utilised by WCW but had the potential to be stars (Rey Mysterio, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero) and booked them long-term to be so.

[Undertaker666]

And that mainstream press coverage has resulted in what? The WWE seeming a more legitimite company? No. Wrestling/Sports Entertainment becoming cool or at least accepted again? No. Higher ppv buyrates or ratings? (bare number wise not income wise.) No. Less time for all those midcarders to grow into at least upper midcarders? Yes.

 

If getting mainstream press is the goal that is fine, but if it doesn't bring any results at all it is not serving its purpose.

 

As an aside you know what got a lot of mainstream press? David Arquette and Katie Vick lolz.

 

I agree whole-heartedly. But from Vinne Mac's point of view, mainstream press is a good thing, good or bad (any news is good news etc.). It's why they included Tyson during the Monday Night Wars, Mr T in two Wrestlemania events, Mayweather vs Big Show, countless NFL players etc. over the years. Any chance they can get to potentially get a headline somewhere they normally wouldn't is going to be an opportunity for them.

[PeterHilton]

As I pointed out earlier, the ratings have actually gone up a tick when the bigger names have been rolled out.

 

And you know what mainstream publicity is good for? Driving home the notion to the general public that the WWE IS pro wrestling.

[lazorbeak]

True. But we need to realise a lot of the stars of today (Kane, HHH, Edge etc.) were created due to a need by WWE (then WWF) to create stars to compete with the names of WCW. If you compare WCW to WWF during the Monday Night Wars based on name value alone then WCW had things in the bag, until of course certain names (Stone Cold, HHH, The Rock etc.) began to rise.

 

WCW had the majority of guys which WWF made big stars of (Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall, Rude, Hennig, Hart etc.), but then WWF also took guys from WCW who were being under utilised by WCW but had the potential to be stars (Rey Mysterio, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero) and booked them long-term to be so.

 

Your first paragraph is the real problem. WWE hasn't HAD to do anything for 9 years. They won, right? And rather than just be content to be #1 (considering that by 2001 WCW was not even close to WWE's level) and make millions, they shrank the entire industry. And now, there's no reason for WWE's top talent to leave unless Vince flat out doesn't want them. TNA can't match an upper midcarder's salary except in unusual circumstances and even with the Spike TV deal you know Angle had to have taken a pay cut. In 1998 Vince had to weigh what a guy was worth to him vs. what it would mean if the guy left. Guys like Sid and LOD and even Jeff Jarrett still had value to the company, but they weren't worth hanging onto and they created spots for fresh guys to come in.

 

Now, who has left the main event scene in the past 5 years? Benoit and Guerrero are the only two I can think of, and they weren't even top guys for most of their runs. JBL and King Booker, but again those two were never seen as long-term main eventers. Oh, and Angle (who had already been phased out as a top guy). And RVD is up there too, I guess, but again, none were built as being at the very top. Hardy is probably the biggest since he left just as he was breaking into the top spot.

 

Undertaker, Triple H, HBK, Cena, Orton, and Batista have been main eventers since 2005. The number of pay per views not headlined by one of those guys can be counted on one hand. It's the same phenomenon Hogan went through in the 90's: after he had already been a main eventer for so long there was a fatigue for something, anything else. McMahon recognized it, putting Savage over in WM 4 and Warrior in 6 and eventually letting Hogan go when obviously he probably could've kept getting at least decent buyrates despite his schedule and health issues. I mean, it's not like WCW used him on every show despite signing the big deal with him.

 

In the long-term, this kind of over-use reduces a main eventer's value because while Undertaker will always have fans, the Undertaker will never get any bigger than he used to be. His drawing ability peaked 11 years ago, and while his name still has value, there isn't the same sort of excitement that Steve Austin had in 1998 or The Rock and Mankind and Triple H had in 1999-2000. John Cena is now an "established" guy but that also means he isn't going to be any bigger than he is.

 

Of course, this is also why Jeff Hardy leaving stings so much. Jeff Hardy is a guy that hadn't feuded with any of the old guard and would probably be main eventing wrestlemania this year if he could control himself.

 

But imagine what WWE would do if Undertaker, HBK, Triple H, Cena and Batista left WWE inside of a year. They'd be decimated, right? Except that 4 of those 5 guys are closing in on 40 and Cena could probably crossover into an actor if he wanted to. It would kill the WWE's buyrates for months if not a couple of years, but all that would happen is that a new group would take over, the same way this bunch did after Hogan, Austin, Rock and Lesnar all left in a relatively small window.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I just know the story broke that Punk disrespected Taker he droped the title THAT night which he was originaly to regin according to more than one source and ever since that night hasn't main evented since. Take it or leave it but seems kinda funny that if it want true they would have at least gave him a rematch which I cant recall them doing. And now he's loseing dark matches in PPV's to R Truth.

 

He had his rematch. Only it wasn't on PPV, it was on SmackDown!. Not to mention he got inserted in the fatal-four way shortly after at Bragging Rights. To be honest, after his World title loss, Punk had nowhere to go but down, really. He serves the role of the perfect upper-midcarder: not a monster, former World champion, yet not headlining anything; whenever he's needed, he'll rise to the occasion.

 

Not sure how "R Truth" is even in the WWE, he had a shot way back when as K-Kwik (or whatever he was called) and flopped. Then they bring him back with pretty much the same gimmick - "Rapping on the way to the ring etc."

 

Maybe it's that this gimmick works better in this modernized WWE era. It's useful after all, he's a crowd pleaser, quite over, actually keeps the crowd alive with his "what's up" chant and the cherry on the cake, he still moves in the ring like when he actually was K-Kwik.

 

Um, no. That puts three of the limited number of workers who can main event Wrestlemania into ONE match. Too many eggs in that one basket. I'm probably remembering wrong but I think the 'E uses triple threats and four ways as a way of covering for a worker who perhaps can't draw necessary interest (WMXX for example). Putting three workers who can/have drawn in the same match seems off.

 

True most of the time, WM22 was another example of that with Rey, WM25 with Big Show, but as with everything, there was exceptions, in the Orton/Trips/Cena debacle. Although in that circumstance, me thinks it was just Triple H's way of weaseling himself into the WrestleMania main-event. And somehow, if HHH/HBK/Taker were to happen, it'd probably be the same situation

 

Triple threat main-events serve also for not booking matches which have been seen 100 times already. The only exception in recent memory is Orton/Triple H, but that was generated by a deep full-blown storyline.

 

I think Santino's in a perfect position, personally. Sure, he could be booked stronger but he bounces back from losses and still remains relevant to E fans.

 

/nod

[ampulator]

Everyone knows that Vince and the WWE have learned their lessons about their Hogan's, Austin's, and Lesnar's.

 

But have they learned their lessons on their D'Lo Browns, Billy Gunns, Val Venises, or Ken Shamrocks? You know, the guys they could have certainly tried to push to the next level, but always managed to screw up on somehow? That's what me wonder. Considering they are pushing Kofi Kingston, sort of. But I still have my doubts. (Side Note: I would have included Jeff Jarrett... but there was always other issues with him).

[PeterHilton]

(Side Note: I would have included Jeff Jarrett... but there was always other issues with him).

 

Lack of talent or real popularity?

[cappyboy]

Lack of talent or real popularity?

 

I'd vote popularity. I've never had any problems with Jarrett's talent level.

[ampulator]

Actually, I thought he could have gained more popularity. The problem was, he had the "Shane Douglas" problem - "it's everyone else's fault that they don't recgonize that big star I already am!"

 

I liked his ringwork fine, but it always felt like he had a chip on his shoulder.

 

I would say Jeff Jarrett has more popularity back then, than Jack Swagger has now. The main difference is Swagger doesn't act like this is "beneath him", and that he "deserves more".

 

At best, Jeff Jarrett, at his peak, has a "B-" in Star Quality, at "C+' popularity at most. And that's just his max.

[Franchise22]

i love R-thruths athelticism in ring. when his videos aired hyping his return, it seemed like he was going to have a serious gimmick. the whole back from jail stuff. if i remember, the r truth vigenettes were quite serious. He debuts and is a fun loving rapping baby face. im not into that at all.

 

edit, just found it:

 

[TheOmniWarrior]

Smackdown Spoiler in white...

 

Two dark matches this show

One before and one after

The before one happens again DURING the show

Ziggler over Yang w/ Sleeper

 

 

The second one is reminiscent of late WCW... So glad they didnt waste valuable air time on it.

 

Vickie Guerrero comes out and makes Rey vs. Batista for tonight. This was a dark match.

 

It's a no DQ match. They brawl with weapons for a bit. Jericho interferes and hits the codebreaker on Rey. Matt Hardy runs in with a twist of fate to Jericho. CM Punk runs in and hits GTS on Hardy. Kane runs in and chokeslams Punk. Batista spears Kane. Rey jumps back in and attacks Batista. Kane chokeslams Batista and Rey splashes off Kane's shoulders and pins Batista.

[TheOmniWarrior]

Was this scripted?

[The Shape]

Smackdown Spoiler in white...

 

Honestly think it'd be quite fun if on air, that sort of thing is usually reserved for the rumble build and makes for a good end to the show xD

[MattitudeV2]

Was this scripted?

 

Yes Omni it was a worked shoot.