The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Wrestling Century]

For WM:

 

3. Chris Jericho vs Edge: These two are two of my favorite pro wrestlers of all time. They have put on tons of good matches, and this one is looking to be another one.

 

2. ShoMiz vs R-Truth & John Morrison: I have liked the storyline build up, and this looks to be a great tag title match with who I think are 3 up and coming wrestlers and an awesome former World Champ.

 

1. Vince McMahon vs Bret Hart: At first I wasn't too excited for this. But when they made this match a No Holds Barred match, I marked out. One of my favorite mark out moments was at WMXIX when it was Hulk Hogan vs Vince in a Street Fight, which, while IMO not a technical masterpiece, was a great WM match. I think that this match will also be one, and I think that pieces of the match will look great if they put them in highlight packages.

[shawn michaels]

For WM:

 

3. Chris Jericho vs Edge: These two are two of my favorite pro wrestlers of all time. They have put on tons of good matches, and this one is looking to be another one.

 

2. ShoMiz vs R-Truth & John Morrison: I have liked the storyline build up, and this looks to be a great tag title match with who I think are 3 up and coming wrestlers and an awesome former World Champ.

 

1. Vince McMahon vs Bret Hart: At first I wasn't too excited for this. But when they made this match a No Holds Barred match, I marked out. One of my favorite mark out moments was at WMXIX when it was Hulk Hogan vs Vince in a Street Fight, which, while IMO not a technical masterpiece, was a great WM match. I think that this match will also be one, and I think that pieces of the match will look great if they put them in highlight packages.

 

 

For years i wanted to see Bret back, but i had to accept the fact that he just couldn't do it. So...why did he return in the first place? I mean...this is not the 90's, he isn't going to deliver a classic like in teh old days. Even with the match stipulation he won't be able to get involved in too many violence for obvious reasons. Of course we all know he'll spend the match pounding on vince, but still...i think the old school fans will resent Bret for this match after all is said and done. But who knows? Maybe i'm wrong.

[crownsy]

For years i wanted to see Bret back, but i had to accept the fact that he just couldn't do it. So...why did he return in the first place? I mean...this is not the 90's, he isn't going to deliver a classic like in teh old days. Even with the match stipulation he won't be able to get involved in too many violence for obvious reasons. Of course we all know he'll spend the match pounding on vince, but still...i think the old school fans will resent Bret for this match after all is said and done. But who knows? Maybe i'm wrong.

 

agree with all you wrote, but i'll still mark out hard if he wears the old hitman ring attire

[Tha Black Phenom]

For years i wanted to see Bret back, but i had to accept the fact that he just couldn't do it. So...why did he return in the first place? I mean...this is not the 90's, he isn't going to deliver a classic like in teh old days. Even with the match stipulation he won't be able to get involved in too many violence for obvious reasons. Of course we all know he'll spend the match pounding on vince, but still...i think the old school fans will resent Bret for this match after all is said and done. But who knows? Maybe i'm wrong.

 

I doubt it. I would hope no one expects Bret to put on a classic or anything, or not even to take big bumps. I mean, it's not like Bret's facing Jericho or Cena. He's facing someone 10 years OLDER than him. From the get-go, I would hope that everyone sees putting on a "good match" is really not what this is about. It's about entertaining. Bret wants to put himself out there one last time for the fans. They'll try to do what they humanely can and maybe it won't be as bad. I'm cool with it.

 

And if old-school fans can't see that, then they're the problem.

 

I think Goldberg has so much left to offer the business. His run with the E was so disappointing. I can not believe we never got Goldberg vs Austin.

 

I remember when I was little, seldom watching both WCW and WWF and I had trouble differentiating the two. For a while, I thought Austin was the big dog in WCW and Goldberg in WWF. That constant confusion instantly became my dream match because if there was one thing I was sure of, is that they weren't in the same company.

 

Edit I do think it would be cool if they announced a stipulation that would be in the WM MITB You can't have been a former World champion. I think it would kayfabe explain why ME's don't care about being in it and I think it would do a good job emphasizing how big of a push/opportunity it is.

 

I don't know.. doesn't look necessary. Cause like, I get it, about emphasizing the premise of the match and all but at the same time.. you wanna keep your options open. You put that stipulation in and all those former World champions turned upper-midcarders are gonna become big question marks. Part of WrestleMania is trying to book a lot of talent into it to make everyone happy, I guess MITB served as a good purpose on that end. But with that stip, all the Kanes and the King Bookers will have to find somethin' else to do. They could, but.. doesn't make it easier.

[shawn michaels]

agree with all you wrote, but i'll still mark out hard if he wears the old hitman ring attire

 

I'll have to agree with you on that one. Me too.

[Remianen]

I think people misdiagnose the real reason why they split the Rockers: according to both Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty, they were getting into fights with each other all the time backstage. They were barely keeping together.

 

Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty were two very different people. Shawn Michaels was a jerk at the time, but he remained more focused and determined than Marty Jannetty. He did his share of party (a lot) but he didn't keep from keeping himself together. Michaels, probably rightfully, felt that Jannetty's lifestyle was going to get him into trouble.

 

Marty Jannetty wasn't a jerk, but he had... drug and alcohol issues. And his look was very outdated, even for the 80's. They tried to push him, but his personal issues just got him in trouble.

 

It makes Jannetty sound like the villain... but he isn't. If he could have kept his stuff together, he wouldn't be let go. It's really sad what happened to Marty Jannetty, because he was actually the better of the two in the beginning in terms of ring skills. I still remember his match against Chris Benoit in WCW and his match against Kurt Angle in WWE. He was really good.

 

Umm....

 

They split because one had 'STAR' practically tattooed on his forehead and the other, well, didn't. They were almost exact precursors to the Hardyz. One was practically dripping with charisma and the other....was good in the ring.

 

ampulator, I don't know which promotion you're referring to, but with WWE, charisma and star power buys you forgiveness. Jannetty does not, and never had, the level of charisma of a Michaels. Even with no substance problems, he would've still been released/fired/future endeavored. If you honestly think that Marty Jannetty had any marketable gifts that would have assured his continued employment (and we all know what gifts are required to do that in WWE), I don't know what to tell you. Sure, his issues hastened his decline and eventual firing but this is WWE we're talking about. By all accounts (and especially by Bret's), Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart and Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid were hopped up on SOMETHING for much of their WWF-E runs. Hell, Anvil was even a crackhead (literally) at one point. How many people kept their jobs after surfacing in the Signature Pharmacy case? Lemme see if I remember: Batista, Randy Orton, Edge, Santino, Chavo, and William Regal. Notice anything about these names (especially the first three)? How many Wellness violations have been racked up by current members of the roster? Rob Van Dam as a champion in WWE (do I need to cite the incident?). So you can use/abuse steroids np, show up in a statewide investigation that piggybacked a FEDERAL investigation (and you'd better believe Vince wants no part of those anymore), and smokin' the cheeba to clear your mind is fine, but God forbid you have a few too many a few nights in a row and pop a few pills? Come on.

 

It was obvious that Shawn was destined for great things and Marty...wasn't. "People" aren't selling Marty short, they're stating facts based on prevailing, overwhelming evidence.

 

agree with all you wrote, but i'll still mark out hard if he wears the old hitman ring attire

 

Ha! The shoulder tassels and all.

[ampulator]

Umm....

 

 

 

ampulator, I don't know which promotion you're referring to, but with WWE, charisma and star power buys you forgiveness. Jannetty does not, and never had, the level of charisma of a Michaels. Even with no substance problems, he would've still been released/fired/future endeavored. If you honestly think that Marty Jannetty had any marketable gifts that would have assured his continued employment (and we all know what gifts are required to do that in WWE), I don't know what to tell you. Sure, his issues hastened his decline and eventual firing but this is WWE we're talking about. By all accounts (and especially by Bret's), Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart and Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid were hopped up on SOMETHING for much of their WWF-E runs. Hell, Anvil was even a crackhead (literally) at one point. How many people kept their jobs after surfacing in the Signature Pharmacy case? Lemme see if I remember: Batista, Randy Orton, Edge, Santino, Chavo, and William Regal. Notice anything about these names (especially the first three)? How many Wellness violations have been racked up by current members of the roster? Rob Van Dam as a champion in WWE (do I need to cite the incident?). So you can use/abuse steroids np, show up in a statewide investigation that piggybacked a FEDERAL investigation (and you'd better believe Vince wants no part of those anymore), and smokin' the cheeba to clear your mind is fine, but God forbid you have a few too many a few nights in a row and pop a few pills? Come on.

 

It was obvious that Shawn was destined for great things and Marty...wasn't. "People" aren't selling Marty short, they're stating facts based on prevailing, overwhelming evidence.

 

 

 

Ha! The shoulder tassels and all.

You see, Marty might not have the star quality he did, but he certainly had it more than certain people. People say he lacked charisma and mic skills... but from what I've seen, he's wasn't that bad. If Shawn Michaels was an A* in the Star Quality department, Marty was a B-. Huge difference? Yes! But not so much that he couldn't have at least remained a good upper midcarder or even just midcarder. As for his so called lack of charisma and mic skills, he wasn't absolutely horrid that people make him out to be. Remember, Shawn Michaels didn't have the mic skills early on... he had to develop it.

 

Marty was held back because of his personal demons. Marty and Shawn said in shoot interviews (which have been since been taken down), that the WWF had planned to do something with Marty, but Marty was even more drugged out than Shawn (which is, ironically, why Shawn wanted to break up with him).

[justtxyank]

Look, Marty has been underrated and marginalized by history. He was good. The E was a fan of his. They tried hard to give him pushes throughout the 90s, but he always managed to derail himself. When HBK turned on Marty he had a good feud with him and was getting good reactions. The E even let him have a win over HBK. If Marty could have kept himself clean and updated his look he could have been so much more than he was.

[ampulator]

Look, Marty has been underrated and marginalized by history. He was good. The E was a fan of his. They tried hard to give him pushes throughout the 90s, but he always managed to derail himself. When HBK turned on Marty he had a good feud with him and was getting good reactions. The E even let him have a win over HBK. If Marty could have kept himself clean and updated his look he could have been so much more than he was.

Exactly. Sadly, drugs have derailed more careers than anything else. In fact, when Marty Jannetty came back with Shawn Michaels in a Rockers Reunion, he got a good reaction, and when he went up against Kurt Angle, he got an even BETTER reaction, and had a good TV match with Kurt Angle.

[Candyman]

So you can use/abuse steroids np, show up in a statewide investigation that piggybacked a FEDERAL investigation (and you'd better believe Vince wants no part of those anymore), and smokin' the cheeba to clear your mind is fine, but God forbid you have a few too many a few nights in a row and pop a few pills? Come on.

 

You really don't get it, do you? Jannetty being released had nothing to do with how much he drank or what pills he popped...nor did it have anything to do with any lack of skill or star quality. He was released because he no showed, arrived at the arena severely under the influence of those pills, and because he couldn't work matches because he was in jail. The WWE couldn't care less if you use steroids, get high, drink your weight in beer on a nightly basis, or give new definition to the phrase abusing prescription drugs - as long as it's not affecting your performance. Show up at the arena on time and ready to work and you can do whatever you want outside the arena - don't, and you're gone no matter what you're doing outside the arena. And that's why Jannetty couldn't keep a job.

[ampulator]

You really don't get it, do you? Jannetty being released had nothing to do with how much he drank or what pills he popped...nor did it have anything to do with any lack of skill or star quality. He was released because he no showed, arrived at the arena severely under the influence of those pills, and because he couldn't work matches because he was in jail. The WWE couldn't care less if you use steroids, get high, drink your weight in beer on a nightly basis, or give new definition to the phrase abusing prescription drugs - as long as it's not affecting your performance. Show up at the arena on time and ready to work and you can do whatever you want outside the arena - don't, and you're gone no matter what you're doing outside the arena. And that's why Jannetty couldn't keep a job.

While I don't disagree with what you said, but WWF DOES care, at least now. Why? Because even if they aren't involved in anyway whatsoever, they still can look bad, or people might still suspect them might be involved in some way. WWE does care, even it doesn't affect your performance adversely, if only to protect themselves.

 

As for Jannetty, it's similar sad stories all over wrestling... Scott Hall. Jake Roberts...

[James Casey]

For years i wanted to see Bret back, but i had to accept the fact that he just couldn't do it. So...why did he return in the first place? I mean...this is not the 90's, he isn't going to deliver a classic like in teh old days. Even with the match stipulation he won't be able to get involved in too many violence for obvious reasons.

 

Vince/Hogan and Vince/Shawn both involved Vince getting his rear end kicked for 90% of the match and were great fun. I'm sure the match will be no classic, and will probably only last a few minutes, but when Bret locks in the Sharpshooter... that will be a Wrestlemania moment.

[bookerman]

Tag team wrestling has it's place. Current day, I could see it being used as a way to break in young talent by either pairing them with veterans who aren't doing much or bringing them in together and letting them slowly work up the ladder. The thing that the WWE fails to do is plan long term (i'm talking years here). They bring up singles talent and either burn through potential matches in a few months or continue to bring up new talent instead of taking the time to fully flesh out and establish the talent they have. They have a whole show devoted to guys trying to make it to the WWE while they have guys like Swagger, Mcintyre, etc who haven't been up long and whose character hasn't been fully developed. This is in addition to guys like Rhodes, Dibiase who are more established but still growing into their characters. This is akin to a sports team constantly shuffling guys in and out of the bottom third of their roster without really giving those guys a fair chance to see if they can make it at this level.

 

Back to the tags. Putting guys together and letting them work while developing is a solid way to a) keep them fresh, b) hide weaknesses, c)give them confidence in front of large crowds, and d) make them more valuable long term. Yes, it's more costly short term, but if the WWE has already invested time/money into getting these guys to this level, don't you think they'd like to have something to show for it besides a 3 month run with the big club and then being sent back down or released. After tagging for a while, they can be given house show matches or early segments against some of the midcard or higher talent to see how they look. This is how Bret/Shawn eventually moved to singles. Bret had house matches with Dibiase, Perfect,etc and even though he lost, he still made a good showing and proved to be someone who could shine in singles.

 

As far as money goes, do you think someone like Kane or Big Show is actually earning what they are making? These guys are in UMH (Upper Midcard Hades) and I'm sure are being paid well even though they aren't draws or headliners. Really, I think you could use these two in tags (even together as a team) and as heavyweight gateways into the upper card for some of the younger monsters (Swagger for instance). Keep em strong over the midcard, have them lose to the MEs.

 

Enough rambling. Point being, the WWE could use tags effectively if they chose to devote time and energy to doing so.

[shawn michaels]

Vince/Hogan and Vince/Shawn both involved Vince getting his rear end kicked for 90% of the match and were great fun. I'm sure the match will be no classic, and will probably only last a few minutes, but when Bret locks in the Sharpshooter... that will be a Wrestlemania moment.

 

Don't disagree. In fact, in a very poor wrestlemania, hbk/vince ended up beeing the best match that year. But of course, shawn can carry everyone (and i mean EVERYONE) to a great match, even if he does it by kicking the hell out of them for 90% of the match, as he did with vince. I remember that match, and it was no classic of course, byt i enjoyed it.

[Hyde Hill]

Tag team wrestling has it's place. Current day, I could see it being used as a way to break in young talent by either pairing them with veterans who aren't doing much or bringing them in together and letting them slowly work up the ladder. The thing that the WWE fails to do is plan long term (i'm talking years here). They bring up singles talent and either burn through potential matches in a few months or continue to bring up new talent instead of taking the time to fully flesh out and establish the talent they have. They have a whole show devoted to guys trying to make it to the WWE while they have guys like Swagger, Mcintyre, etc who haven't been up long and whose character hasn't been fully developed. This is in addition to guys like Rhodes, Dibiase who are more established but still growing into their characters. This is akin to a sports team constantly shuffling guys in and out of the bottom third of their roster without really giving those guys a fair chance to see if they can make it at this level.

 

Back to the tags. Putting guys together and letting them work while developing is a solid way to a) keep them fresh, b) hide weaknesses, c)give them confidence in front of large crowds, and d) make them more valuable long term. Yes, it's more costly short term, but if the WWE has already invested time/money into getting these guys to this level, don't you think they'd like to have something to show for it besides a 3 month run with the big club and then being sent back down or released. After tagging for a while, they can be given house show matches or early segments against some of the midcard or higher talent to see how they look. This is how Bret/Shawn eventually moved to singles. Bret had house matches with Dibiase, Perfect,etc and even though he lost, he still made a good showing and proved to be someone who could shine in singles.

 

As far as money goes, do you think someone like Kane or Big Show is actually earning what they are making? These guys are in UMH (Upper Midcard Hades) and I'm sure are being paid well even though they aren't draws or headliners. Really, I think you could use these two in tags (even together as a team) and as heavyweight gateways into the upper card for some of the younger monsters (Swagger for instance). Keep em strong over the midcard, have them lose to the MEs.

 

Enough rambling. Point being, the WWE could use tags effectively if they chose to devote time and energy to doing so.

 

Yep plus like I said before a good tag division is a draw in and of itself adding to the amount of people the main eventers draw.

 

Over simplified analogy:

 

Good Main Event Scene, decent midcard, crappy tag scene: 2.0

Good Main Event Scene, decent midcard, decent tag scene: 2.5

Good Main Event Scene, decent midcard, good tag scene: 3.0

 

So a good tag scene means extra money for the promotion and all the workers involved in the promotion only the correlation isn't as direct as with Single workers in the ME scene.

[Franchise22]

here are my mania thoughts:

 

Taker/HBK:

something fishy here....pinfall or sub only? wreaks of a non clean finish. HBK goes down due to controversy. perhaps HHH? Afterall hbk did walk out on DX and cost them the unified tag titles. HBK has been selfish andobsessed and could be perfect for HHH to go heel and turn on HBK with that as his premise.... (i dont know how that will effect program with sheamus)

 

Legacy 3 way:

maybe i missed something but why is this a 3 way and not handicap? this makes me clearly think cody or ted goes rouge and re-unites with RKO and beats down the other or one goes gets a sneaky win screwing the other out of it setting up them fueding with each other.

 

Punk vs Rey:

Punk is so awesome as heel. no other feelings about this match. should be good in ring. Rey always plays the crybaby. ive grown to detest rey rey.

 

MITB:

spotfest as usual, which is cool with me. 10 wrestlers in? im going to have to say i feel its Christian or Drew taking this.

 

Hart v Vince:

how do you give an apology to someone you burned so bad years ago? you let them beat the snot out of you at the biggest event of the year for your company!!!!

 

Cena v Batisita:

i feel cena wins here. I do enojoy this heel batista, but i think the stars are aligned for a win for Cena.

 

Jericho v Edge:

Story seems to point to Edge win, but i dont see both titles changing hands. so im going with jericho to retain with a spear reversal into a codebreaker or underhanded tactics....Edge wins at next event.

 

Divas:

Dont care. sorry Maryse is hot tho.

[xphen0m]

Don't disagree. In fact, in a very poor wrestlemania, hbk/vince ended up beeing the best match that year.

 

Am I the only one that even remotely liked WrestleMania 22?

[bookerman]

I know Cena is the uberface, but is there ANY chance they pull a Rock at Survivor Series and have him turn on Batista and say "Hey you know what...I am a corporate puppet!!" It would be totally against his image, but the everyman wholesome Cena is probably less entertaining than heel Cena with McMahon backing. Granted, I want as little McMahon on my TV as possible, but it's an interesting idea no? His take no prisoners ideals turn into "screw you, you can't touch me!".

 

Then again, he'll probably kick out of 3 Batista bombs and signal the return of super Cena.

[jesterx7769]

He won't turn heel until he stops sellining so much merchandise, doing movies, and tv appearances, Make a Wish ambassador. He is clearly the Golden Boy and they wouldn't risk losing that.

 

Do I see it in the future? Yes. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that spent their career of any decent length as only a heel/face

[Franchise22]

I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that spent their career of any decent length as only a heel/face

 

Ricky Steamboat!!! Face his whole career.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Am I the only one that even remotely liked WrestleMania 22?

 

I did, it was decent for what it was. Edge/Foley, RVD winning the MITB, the aforementioned street fight, and.. I think that's it. HHH/Cena was quite suspenseful(Cena being the first one to kick out of the Pedigree in ages, vice versa with the F-U) and hosted hot crowd reactions as well.

[shawn michaels]

I did, it was decent for what it was. Edge/Foley, RVD winning the MITB, the aforementioned street fight, and.. I think that's it. HHH/Cena was quite suspenseful(Cena being the first one to kick out of the Pedigree in ages, vice versa with the F-U) and hosted hot crowd reactions as well.

 

I think that a couple of good moments don't put on a good wrestlemania. Maybe i had a bad choise of words when i said "very poor", but they had already jumped the shark by then. That's a fact.

[xphen0m]

Except for the Playboy match and Boogey/Booker, I thought Mania 22 was actually enjoyable. At least, it was to me. I still watch it quite frequently to this very day. Even Taker/Henry was watchable. WM22 was easily the best PPV that year, IMO, outside of Unforgiven and Judgment Day.

[Tha Black Phenom]

How could you forget ONS 06?

[xphen0m]

I honestly didn't like ONS 06. 05's was the one of the greatest PPVs I had ever seen, but 06's.....bleh. I just could not get into it.