The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Astil]

I don't where glasses and to me Cena is a personifaction of Main Eventer. He's got a good look, good ring work and great personality.

[Stennick]

Like it or not Pro Wrestling is a male dominated sport still. Sure kids like it and there are more women coming every year. However no matter what you do its a male dominated sport.

 

Kids don't buy pay per views and usually don't dictate whats on television in prime time. I seriously doubt 4 million women tune into RAW every week its men that are tuning in. They wouldn't be tuning in and buying pay per view's that Cena is all over.

 

Much like Austin, The Rock and others Cena works more televison, more pay per views than Hogan ever did.

[ampulator]

I think you're WAAAAY over stating the supposed problem that Cena doesn't draw adults. He doesn't draw smarks, but adult marks? Cena isn't prehaps as appealing as in a smarks mind as the heros of the attitude era, but do you honestly think that Cena's wholesome act isn't as strong as Bret Hart's during the New Generation or Hogan in the 80s? Cena clean cut, do right, be strong, troop salutin' character is as much as good if not the equal to Hart, Shawn Michaels or Hogan. In a work with so many dark and edgy heros (especially nowadays) I'm sure there's family men and women who appreciate the everyman character of John Cena.

 

I the RAW when Batista let Cena beat him via DQ and get his Wrestlemania match only to beat him down viciously afterwords...that RAW there was an American serviceman in the front row. As Cena got the crap knocked out of him all you could hear was "Come on John! Come on John" over and over.

 

Bottom line; In my view there are plenty of adults who can get behind a American everyman just trying to do good. It's corny, but corny can work. Hell, the proof is watch RAW and see how many adult sized Orange t-shirts are in the crowd. No, it's no at Austin levels, but people need to take their attitude era vision glasses off.

You might be right that people can get behind an everyday man. however, John Cena doesn't play that man well. It's just looks contrived, forced, and faked. it doesn't FEEL like it's him. it feels like he's someone else. It feels like he's playing someone else.

 

Another problem is, Hogan always had a look consistent with his character and gimmick. Cena does not. He dresses like a part way between a hip hop star, part-way giant teenager. It just doesn't fit.

 

I never truly liked Hogan, but I could respect his ability to play a wholesome face. Anyone can play a wholesome, but only a few can do it WELL. Cena just looks unnatural and fake when he does it.

 

If they HAD to a do a wholesome babyface, there's two better choices in the WWE: Rey Mysterio and Kofi Kingston. They are NATURALS at it. And I never really liked Rey Mysterio either, back then or now, but he IS good at it. Cena has played a wholesome face for YEARS, and he still hasn't gotten that good at it.

 

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Cena doesn't work well as a wholesome babyface. A wholesome babyface MUST get the whole crowd behind him. It's all he has. Unlike a Cool babyface, he can't just brush them.

 

One thing that Cena lacks from Hogan is even Hogan had his moments of Kryptonite. Andre... Earthquake.... any big man he's faced. You could always believe that there's a SLIGHT chance he might not make it.

 

That's not true for Cena. They make it CLEAR he's going to win. And he has no Kryptonite. He survives punts. He survives finishers. He survives submissions.

 

There's no believability or face heat and sympathy. You know he's going to win. Why should I care?

[Stennick]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

 

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

 

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

[Candyman]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

 

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

 

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

 

You hit the nail on the head with the first sentence here. It sounds to me like this person just really doesn't like Cena and that has blinded them to reality. Cena's not a good wholesome face, he's a GREAT one - the best since Hogan and maybe better, all things considered. The idea that Cena is only liked by kids and not adults is just silly, IMO. He simply wouldn't be in the position he is if that were true. And maybe some people out there never believe he's going to lose, but I'm sure there were plenty of people that felt the same about Hogan...obviously a lot of people out there do believe Cena will lose, or at least enjoy watching him persevere and win against all odds, considering how often they put the title on him and put him in those storylines and matches...

 

It's one thing not to like the guy...that's completely understandable. But to just blindly ignore the facts and pretend he's just this guy who's average in the ring and on the mic and is only popular with kids is just silly.

[PeterHilton]

blah blah blah

 

Like others said, you just don't like Cena.

 

I would just add that the overall point of wrestling is to get people to pay to watch you work

 

Cena has kids and their parents paying out their ass to buy his stuff. He has women coming to arenas.

 

And this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSXySayq2w

 

This is an example of people paying just to hate on him. Who cares if net nerds wanna cry; the E takes their cash all the same.

[-laz-]

add me to the list of cena haters

 

http://fast1.onesite.com/fans.wwe.com/user/w99strowns77/ff8b9c63aa9bcd68b454e8527cd7a2e5.jpg

[TheEdgeOfReason]

That was pretty awesome. I'm dying to see a Cena heel turn. I don't like the wholesome character either.

 

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?

[The Final Countdown]

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?

A better question would be, does anyone like that term?

[LoganRodzen]

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?

 

When I hear one of the wrestlers or commentators say it I'm glad that I don't watch every week and that I'm not apart of the "WWE Universe". It actually makes me feel like an idiot because it's beyond cheesy.

[hellshock70]

I'm not part of the WWE Universe. I choose to make it a part of my little universe of things i watch or do.

 

Which includes any other WWE and non-WWE program I choose to watch or attend or be a part of, be it main stream with 60,000 people or at a rec center with 60 people. It's a small portion of my Universe that is dominated by family and friends and anything I choose to add to it.

[ampulator]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

 

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

 

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

I LIKED CENA. Remember his older gimmick? Hip Hop Star? THAT WORKED. I also don't dislike him personally. It's not a personal matter, it's wrestling booking issue.It still doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible wholesome face. But, he was never that great at psychology.

 

People tell me his bringing in kids and what not, but I hate to say this, but he pushes out as much as he draws in. Anyone that didn't like he's booked has already left the WWE BECAUSE of the way he's booked. Drawing in kids what won't get them everything. The economy is in the tank, and since parents hold the money purses, I doubt buying your kid a Cena shirt or a ticket to RAW is all that important.

 

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

[lazorbeak]

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

 

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

 

Reading up on this thread, I was essentially going to post this. It's silly to argue we know Cena will never lose when he's had the crap beaten out of him week after week by Batista leading into WM, and before that, he lost to Sheamus and has never beaten him cleanly. Saying that Hogan was somehow better at this is just flat out wrong: it's not like Hogan lost to Andre, or Earthquake, or, hell, even Savage. In fact, Hogan was FAR more protected than Cena ever has been.

 

There's more to being a wholesome babyface than just being an underdog, which Cena is on a regular basis. There's also the fact that he's an outspoken supporter of our armed forces, does all that crap for make-a-wish, stands up for what he believes in, etc. While a "wholesome" babyface is never going to get WWE mainstream attention the way the Attitude Era did, it allows for significantly more valuable sponsors and introduces a new generation of fan to the product.

 

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.

[Stennick]

You're saying he's pushing out as many people as he'd drawn in? Point to me how he's pushed away millions of people? Point to me where people where buying other guys merch and now because of Cena's their not.

 

You're not really using numbers to back up your argument. You say he's bad as pyschology, you say he's not drawing in adults, you say he's pushed out as many as he's brought in.

 

Again its not a big deal that you don't like Cena, heck I liked 03 Cena more than I've liked 98% of their characters. The argument I have is you make these claims where he doesn't have psychology, he's not a good clean cut baby, he's not drawing in adults, he's not got that "one" guy that he can't beat when I named you two very recent examples of guys that have kicked him around the arena several times before he got his revenge. Now you're saying he's pushed away as many fans as he's brought in. Yet you have nothing more to go off of than your word. Give me numbers of SEVERE rating drop offs when Cena was being booed. Give me numbers of of fans that watch when Cena's hurt and off of television or why isn't Smackdown viewed more? If people don't like Cena wouldn't those wrestling fans watch SD or TNA or some other wrestling show? They don't like Cena so they just quit wrestling in general? Thats highly doubtful but I'd be willing to look at numbers.

 

So while you come up with some facts to back up your argument beyond "your opinion" let me give you an example of some numbers. I've compiled a list of the last six wrestlemania's. I'll list who main evented them and then you can decide for yourself if Cena isn't drawing.

 

WM26 850,000 - Taker vs. HBK

WM 25 970,00 - HHH vs. Orton

WM24 1,000,000 - Orton vs. Cena vs. HHH

WM 23 1,200,000 - Cena vs. HBK

WM 22 980,000 - Cena vs. Triple H

WM 21 1,000,000 - Triple H vs. Batista

 

So of the last six Wrestlemania's the ones that John Cena has main evented are 1st, 2nd, and 4th highest buys. Now I'm not saying he's the reason for all of those numbers but if he was pushing away as many fans as he was bringing in I certainly don't think he would have the highest buys of the last six ppvs. Furthermore why wouldn't the other buys that he's not main evented be even higher if these fans were pushed away by Cena.

 

My point is that the numbers don't lie and they have seen no decrease since the era of Cena began at Wrestlemania 22. You can not like the guy all you want but he is a draw, people do love the guy and he makes bucket loads of money. You can't do the numbers he does if adults don't like him and if his character isn't over. Numbers don't lie, peoples opinions do.

[Stennick]

Reading up on this thread, I was essentially going to post this. It's silly to argue we know Cena will never lose when he's had the crap beaten out of him week after week by Batista leading into WM, and before that, he lost to Sheamus and has never beaten him cleanly. Saying that Hogan was somehow better at this is just flat out wrong: it's not like Hogan lost to Andre, or Earthquake, or, hell, even Savage. In fact, Hogan was FAR more protected than Cena ever has been.

 

There's more to being a wholesome babyface than just being an underdog, which Cena is on a regular basis. There's also the fact that he's an outspoken supporter of our armed forces, does all that crap for make-a-wish, stands up for what he believes in, etc. While a "wholesome" babyface is never going to get WWE mainstream attention the way the Attitude Era did, it allows for significantly more valuable sponsors and introduces a new generation of fan to the product.

 

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.

 

THIS is one hundred percent right. Hogan NEVER lost. He didn't lost to Earthquake he got beat up and came back and pinned him in every 1 on 1 match they had. He never lost to Savage leading up to WM 5, he never lost to Andre. Hogan didn't lose flat out. The only guy he laid down for in about a 10 year span was Warrior. Thats the only WM loss he had up until he left at WM 8. So I have no idea how Hogan showed weakness better when Batista destroyed him for weeks and they aired those video packages of all the different ppv matches Batista had BEAT him in. Batista even said "you've never beat me Cena" over and over again leading into WM26. Sheamous beat him cleanly in a Tables match and Cena has still not gotten a pinfall over him.

 

We can all be smarks and say "we knew" Cena wouldn't lose but thats like saying we knew Austin wouldn't lose at WM 14. Just because we're pretty sure of the outcome of something doesn't mean someone hasn't shown weakness it just means that sometimes in this business we know the outcome before the match. WM 15 was the same way did people not expect Austin to beat Rock for the title? Or WM 18 did people not expect HHH to beat Jericho? I could go on but the point is just because you think you know the outcome doesn't mean the other 1.2 million that buy WM know it as well and that has nothing to do with a Cena argument.

[ampulator]

Actually, the numbers having increased or decreased. I never said, he was alienating people MORE than his drawing in. I said, his bringing in as much as pushing out. That means, while he DOES draw new people in, the way he is now, he pushes the same amount of out. He can't keep the people that WAS in, while drawing a new crowd.

 

I never doubted Cena is brining anyone new in. There's never been doubt about that. But he hasn't been able to retain the old audience. He's not LOSING more people more than he's bringing in, but you can't SEE that in numbers. You, however, can SEE it in crowds. it's the same number of people, except the crowd is colder and colder each year, and the people are different. More parents, more kids.

 

What IS true is you noticed, every so-called "Cena-hater" has moved on. The only reason I haven't is I believe Cena and the WWE can be saved. Why else would I subject myself to this? There's still time before they hit the point where there realized they boxed themselves in a corner.

[Hyde Hill]

I LIKED CENA. Remember his older gimmick? Hip Hop Star? THAT WORKED. I also don't dislike him personally. It's not a personal matter, it's wrestling booking issue.It still doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible wholesome face. But, he was never that great at psychology.

 

People tell me his bringing in kids and what not, but I hate to say this, but he pushes out as much as he draws in. Anyone that didn't like he's booked has already left the WWE BECAUSE of the way he's booked. Drawing in kids what won't get them everything. The economy is in the tank, and since parents hold the money purses, I doubt buying your kid a Cena shirt or a ticket to RAW is all that important.

 

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

 

Tell that to the legions of people that are part of it, the site stuff that is. And for not cramming it down your throat start counting the number of times it is said over a broadcast. Its a lot! And I dislike the term a lot and to top it of they stole it from TNA lolz.

[The Final Countdown]

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.

That seems like an apples & oranges comparison to me. Both the WWF/E and the PPV system itself are completely different today as opposed to 1996.

 

I don't mean that as a slight on Cena: I would agree that he's a bigger star than Michaels and/or Hart were at their peak, even if I personally would much rather watch them.

[lazorbeak]

That seems like an apples & oranges comparison to me. Both the WWF/E and the PPV system itself are completely different today as opposed to 1996.

 

I don't mean that as a slight on Cena: I would agree that he's a bigger star than Michaels and/or Hart were at their peak, even if I personally would much rather watch them.

 

Oh I'm not arguing that this is proof-positive that Cena is better. But for the talk that Cena is "pushing away" fans, the company is still in a FAR better situation than it was when it was trying to transition someone new into a top babyface in the mid-90's. There isn't an imminent need to change things because they're still a long way from being in that bad a shape.

[LoganRodzen]

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

 

It does feel forced to me. The commentators say it constantly and when wrestlers say it you can tell they were told to. Even when Jerry Lawler says it it feels forced. It's just one of those little things that bug me.

 

If Undertaker ever references the "WWE Universe" - we know things have truly hit the fan. These past few years that Taker has referenced the undefeated streak has actually disappointed me. Years and years ago we never heard anyone outside of his opponent and the commentators speak of the streak. Hearing him talk about it during his segments with HBK the past two WMs made me think of it differently. Everybody knows its scripted, so where does he get off being able to brag about the streak? The streak (to me) should be this unspoken thing and Taker should never reference it himself.

[ampulator]

Does sound forced? Hell yeah. Is it forced down my throat? No. I just don't give a.... well, you know. There are bigger issues. I mean, it's really WWE's own version of the Rock's "millions... and millions... of fans" or Hogan's "Hulkamaniacs", or Christian's "Peeps", or Y2J's "Jericholics".

 

Is it kind of dumb? Yeah. Does it really matter in the scheme of things? No. It's not original, but I don't really care. It's stupid gimmick. It's basically WWE's version of facebook/myspace/social network + fan shoutout.

 

On one hand, it's gimmick like sports entertainment. Everyone knows it's BS marketing. If you really call WWE as purely a sports entertainment company, you have issues. The WWE universe is just "WWE: Social Networking" + "WWE: Shout Out to the fans".

[Hyde Hill]

First of all its always popular to rag on the top babyface. No offence meant just an observation even The Rock and Austin had severe detractors. Also there seems to be a flavour of the months heel in the IWC as well from time to time. Anderson then Orton now Miz. And ragging on TNA has been "in" since Russo came back and ROH gets praised to the heavens.

 

Cena is not as bad a worker as the IWC think he is, but he is not as good as the WWE make us believe he is. Also Cena is not the problem its the entire writing/booking and direction of the WWE. Cena being the figurehead at this time is just the one catching a lot of the flack.

 

Numbers are definitely down, just look at the ratings, but they where down before Cena arrived as the main event face. Profitability on the other hand is up and that is the E's main goal. This has mainly been done due to greater efficiency, international distribution and new technology. Is their current heading a long term sustainable development? Well they won't go out of bussiness that is for sure but profits will stop growing and will eventually go down or bottom out.

 

But as long as TNA does not get its head out of its behind or another company pops up they will be no1 for a long long long time. Hell a strong no2 would even force changes but that is not happening either.

[Hyde Hill]

Does sound forced? Hell yeah. Is it forced down my throat? No. I just don't give a.... well, you know. There are bigger issues. I mean, it's really WWE's own version of the Rock's "millions... and millions... of fans" or Hogan's "Hulkamaniacs", or Christian's "Peeps", or Y2J's "Jericholics".

 

Is it kind of dumb? Yeah. Does it really matter in the scheme of things? No. It's not original, but I don't really care. It's stupid gimmick. It's basically WWE's version of facebook/myspace/social network + fan shoutout.

 

On one hand, it's gimmick like sports entertainment. Everyone knows it's BS marketing. If you really call WWE as purely a sports entertainment company, you have issues. The WWE universe is just "WWE: Social Networking" + "WWE: Shout Out to the fans".

 

Not caring and not being forced down your throat are two different things. It is being forced down your throat but since you do not care it doesn't matter to you. Plus they pretend it is more then just a lame social network.

[ampulator]

It REALLY isn't be forced down my throat. I'm so serious. WWE forces a lot of things down onto people, but the WWE universe is not one of them.

[LoganRodzen]

It REALLY isn't be forced down my throat. I'm so serious. WWE forces a lot of things down onto people, but the WWE universe is not one of them.

 

They don't force us to join their crappy site, no. But they do reference it to the point where if you were channel surfing I bet you could hear it if you stayed on RAW or SD for 2-3 minutes. Maybe it isn't forced down YOUR throat and I'm glad you don't feel that way. But MY throat is sore as **** from all their BS over the years.