The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Stennick]

Its not a matter of Vince LETTING John get to that level. What more can he do? John's been in what three or four in theater movies. He's been at the Fiesta Bowl, he's been on the red carpet. He's been World Champion for longer than all but three men in the history of the company. He hardly EVER loses.

 

Seriously I don't know what more they could do. So how could Vince "let" Cena get bigger than he already has? Seriously in what conceivable way could Vince "let" Cena get bigger? And yes he needs it.

 

You want to talk about control that Vince craves? What more control is there than when negotiating with television and other areas of revenue than to say "I have the single most popular live entertainer in the world. To look at USA and say "I'm drawing double the ratings I was last year. When his contract is up. To be able to drop limitless John Cena merchandise.

 

Simply put like Peter said when you get a star like the Rock and Austin they alone can double what you're already doing television wise. You guys have to remember before Austin, Rock, and to a lesser extent Sting came around in the mid 90's with their characters NOBODY was watching pro wrestling. They were combining for about a 3.0 for the night. Four years later they were drawing a combined 10 or 11. What I'm saying is The Rock, Austin, Sting, nWo, these mega stars were able to not double or triple business but they were doing FOUR times the business that was going on. Thats what a megastar brings to the table.

 

You don't think Vince would want to be doing two or three times the business he's doing now? Just for fear Cena leaves. So what if he leaves in two years. Those two years are going to get you better television deals, more merchandise, better advertising, etc. To say Vince doesn't want anybody to get that big because they'll leave is silly. You milk them 365 days a year until they do leave. They will have made more money for you in those two years than most of the rest of your roster combined. I can't even believe people really believe Vince wouldn't want The Rock or Austin back.

 

Let me ask you this would Vince turn down The Rock if he asked to come back to wrestling? HELL NO he wouldn't. So whats the difference?

 

EDIT: You guys are kidding me right? I mean come on "megastar problems". Randy Orton, Triple H, JBL these guys caused problems without making half the money these other guys have. Seriously guys I think your reading way too much into this. You can't honestly believe that Vince wouldn't welcome The Rock back in a heartbeat. What you guys are saying is he'd say "well Rock I'd like to have you back but I don't want to pay you what you'll command and I don't want to deal with your ego so no thanks". Are you kidding me? He'd be on every show Vince could get him on. Ever minute he could let him be on it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Actually booking him correctly?

 

 

 

You are correct, but half-way. He wants the megastar. He just doesn't want the megastar problems. But you can't have the megastar without the megastar problems, can you?

 

If he really doesn't want the problems then you job him out and let him go. You go back to your previous level of business and have the cash from that period to show for it.

[PeterHilton]

Actually booking him correctly?

 

ohhhhhhh...you're one of THOSE people.

 

ok smarky..nevermind. I don't want to debate your ideas on how you think Cena could be 'booked correctly' to make him a bigger star than he is now.

[ampulator]

If he really doesn't want the problems then you job him out and let him go. You go back to your previous level of business and have the cash from that period to show for it.

The point of a megastar is that you CAN"T just job him out... he's reached critical mass, to the point, where what YOU do to him won't work. Jobbing him out only angers the fans, instead of the intended effect of lowering his popularity.

 

ohhhhhhh...you're one of THOSE people.

 

ok smarky..nevermind. I don't want to debate your ideas on how you think Cena could be 'booked correctly' to make him a bigger star than he is now.

 

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

[Slim Jim]

Any time I feel there's a slight chance of seeing Rock or Austin, I'll stay up to watch Raw live at 2AM. Otherwise I only tune in if it happens to be on while I happen to be awake and not doing anything else. That's how big a draw they both still are for some Attitude Era fans.

[PeterHilton]

I've read stories that label Austin as big of a whiny superstar as HBK was back in the 90's. And from what I've read Austin was as humble as can be in ECW and anything before WWF. I think you guys are underestimating a massive ego.

 

Big stars in every business that involves the public get massive egos

 

No one is cutting off 50% of their business to deal with a bunch of 'nice guys'

 

It would be crazy.

[PeterHilton]

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

 

lolwut

 

Yes, yes...it's not just my opinion it's the truth.

 

whatever

[Stennick]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

 

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

 

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

[LoganRodzen]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

 

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

 

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

 

Is it silly? What teams are interested in T.O? Perhaps it's due to age considering he hasn't really had any personality problems recently... but to say that the massive ego problems are "silly" is a silly way to just write it off. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, John Cena is the epitome of a 'company man' and Vince never has to worry about his ego getting massive. Cena would be at the level of Rock/Austin if Vince could get him there, but the crowd just doesn't buy that Cena/Hogan fan favorite character anymore. It's a new day in age.

 

P.S. Can we continue this discussion for a while? My post count is starting to really take shape.

[jwt13]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

 

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

 

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

 

T.O has no job so yes he is hurting for work and nobody is intrested he dont have the value he used to his ego overweighs his talent now

[PeterHilton]

Is it silly? What teams are interested in T.O? Perhaps it's due to age considering he hasn't really had any personality problems recently... but to say that the massive ego problems are "silly" is a silly way to just write it off. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, John Cena is the epitome of a 'company man' and Vince never has to worry about his ego getting massive. Cena would be at the level of Rock/Austin if Vince could get him there, but the crowd just doesn't buy that Cena/Hogan fan favorite character anymore. It's a new day in age.

 

Those are two different arguments though.

 

All teams/companies/etc are willing to deal with a certain amount of ego based on production. As has been pointed out, Orton and Trips (not to mention Batista) have had issues backstage but the WWE continued to push them

 

Cena IS a company guy, but mainly because he knows he's not a big enough star or popular enough to leave the way Rock and Austin did.

 

Now...if you want to say the product is a bit out of date, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with whether or not the E would want a massive star.

 

I'm completely dismissing the idea that the WWE is purposely booking Cena incorrectly to nerf his popularity. It's retardedly smarkish.

 

If the E could bring back or re-create another star on the level of The Rock and SCSA, they would.

 

I just can't see how it could be otherwise.

[Stennick]

T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year.

 

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

[PeterHilton]

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

 

I'd actually extend that to every level of industry where the public is involved.

 

Mel Gibson has always ALWAYS made insane statements, but he was a ginormous star. Now that his worth is on the decline, and the level of insanity on his statements has gone up, he's not worth it and he won't make movies for a while.

 

DO we even need to talk about the music stars who are total d-bags but stay in the industry because they sell CDs?

 

As long as the good outweighs the bad, people put up with it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

The point of a megastar is that you CAN"T just job him out... he's reached critical mass, to the point, where what YOU do to him won't work. Jobbing him out only angers the fans, instead of the intended effect of lowering his popularity.

 

When did jobbing out The Rock or SCSA anger the fans? Did they turn off the tv? Stop buying ppvs?

 

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

 

You make it sound like you don't think those are the same thing.

[LoganRodzen]

T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year.

 

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

 

Agreed on the T.O thing. It's his age and nothing else. He wants a certain amount of cash that his age just can't get. It's too bad really, because if he had someone worth a damn throwing to him he could have one last really good season. The guy was one of the best WR's in the game and to never win a Super Bowl is a shame.

 

The whole Favre thing angers me to be honest. I would have told him to **** off after last season. If you don't give us a "I'm playing with you guys" or "I'm retired" announcement quick then I'd rather take my chances on Tarvaris Jackson. Favre has shown he doesn't need training camp to be season-ready, but his shenanigans are ridiculous and no team needs that crap whether or not the guy is a future hall of famer or not.

 

Is the guy gonna go down as one of the best QBs ever? Yes. Is he going to go down as a person who dragged his team and the media through the mud months and months before a season? Yes. I find his "am I retired or not?" thing just as arrogant as Lebron's free agency announcement special on ESPN.

[Stennick]

I still believe T.O will get a team before the season starts. Really the problem with T.O has always been his hands. He's always been high on the dropped pass end of things. If T.O had the hands of some of the other WR's in the league he might have gone down as the most dominant receiver since Rice.

 

Anyway I think this entire talk has been played out and I can't imagine any new points being brought up now.

 

I hear HHH is out until December. If thats the case are they really going to run Nexus that long? I still doubt they turn Cena heel.

[Jaysin]

Wow, didn't realize that video was going to cause such a stir.

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheEdgeOfReason" data-cite="TheEdgeOfReason" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>When did jobbing out The Rock or SCSA anger the fans? Did they turn off the tv? Stop buying ppvs?<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You miss out on my point, though. What I mean is, jobbing them out has no real discernable effect on their popularity because fans won't accept it, rather, it only angers them. Jobbing them out won't work as a way to keep them down once they reach critical mass. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheEdgeOfReason" data-cite="TheEdgeOfReason" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> You make it sound like you don't think those are the same thing.</p></div></blockquote><p> Because they aren't? There are some things I disagree with, but I can understand the logic and reasoning behind them, and there are some things I disagree with and really dumb for them to do, period. </p><p> </p><p> The first category is a matter of opinion. The second is a matter of fact. For example, I don't think pushing Wade Barrett is a good idea, but I understand the reasoning and logic behind it. The second would be a Zach Gowen; that was just plain stupid. Or having Mark Henry have a travestite blowjob. Or Katie Vick. Just moronic.</p><p> </p><p> i can disagree with something but accept it reluctantly, but there are some things that are simply unnacceptable.</p>

[Candyman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year. <p> </p><p> What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No offense but do you even follow football? It's ridiculous beyond words to even mention TO and Brett Favre in the same post, let alone insinuate they're remotely similiar in terms of attitude.</p><p> </p><p> TO called his quarterback gay in San Francisco. He wasn't happy with his individual production there, so he forced his way out. Then when he didn't like where he was traded, he refused to report until they sent him somewhere else. He got his wish again, signed a seven year deal, and after one season demanded to renegotiate. When the team refused, he literally tore the team apart from the inside out. He was such a cancer that he was suspended for the maximum number of games allowed and then paid to sit at home for the rest of the season. Seriously - they were willing to pay him to stay away from the team. That doesn't sound like the good was outweighing the bad.</p><p> </p><p> What has Brett Favre done that's remotely comparable to any of that? Which teammates has he pubically attacked? When did he holdout? When did he force a suspension and a paid vacation? Ok, he takes his time deciding if he's going to play. Green Bay didn't have a problem with it until the last season - and when they did, they simply traded him. Minnesota's never had a problem with it. Their coach has repeatedly said that there's no timetable. And I've never seen one thing that indicates he's anything but the best teammate imaginable once he joins the team.</p>

[Candyman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Because they aren't.p There are some things i disagree with, but i can understand the logic and reasoning behind them, and there are some things i disagree with and really dumb for them to do, period. <p> </p><p> The first category is a matter of opinion. The second is a matter of fact. For example, i don't think pushing Wade Barrett is a good idea, but i understand the reasoning and logic behind it. The second would be a Zach Gowen; that was just plain stupid.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't think you understand that what you're describing as a matter of fact is still nothing but opinion.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>But I don't think it's opinion? It's plain as day that having Mark Henry being giving a travestite blowjob is a bad idea. That didn't get anyone over, it made Mark Henry look like a fool, and it gave bad publicity. Zach Gowen... one legged wrestler. I don't think I have to say anymore on that.</p><p> </p><p> In any, it's pretty darn obvious that Cena CAN be bigger. I once that too, but that doesn't seem to be ever the case, if you look what the WWE can do and has done. The WWE can't push crap... but they can push averages. Look, people thought that they could have never pushed Triple H. They did. People thought they couldn't push Batista. They did. Heck, people thought the Rock couldn't get over. Need I say more? </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="PeterHilton" data-cite="PeterHilton" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>lolwut<p> </p><p> Yes, yes...it's not just my opinion it's the truth.</p><p> </p><p> whatever</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Don't dismiss out of hand just because you think I'm wrong. I'm not dismissing anything YOU are saying, so you shouldn't dismiss anything I am saying, either. I just disagree with your opinion, and some of your conclusions (and some of facts, or at least your usage).</p>

[TheEdgeOfReason]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You miss out on my point, though. What I mean is, jobbing them out has no real discernable effect on their popularity because fans won't accept it, rather, it only angers them. Jobbing them out won't work as a way to keep them down once they reach critical mass. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, I don't understand. What do you mean by it angers the fans?(Why is that a bad thing?)</p><p> </p><p> The reaction when a heel goes over a face is supposed to be one of anger/sadness. Why would you want to bring them down anyway? The point of jobbing them would be to bring other guys to their level, not drag them down to the level the other guys are at.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheEdgeOfReason" data-cite="TheEdgeOfReason" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, I don't understand. What do you mean by it angers the fans?(Why is that a bad thing?)<p> </p><p> The reaction when a heel goes over a face is supposed to be one of anger/sadness. Why would you want to bring them down anyway? The point of jobbing them would be to bring other guys to their level, not drag them down to the level the other guys are at.</p></div></blockquote><p> Again, you miss out on my point. Jobbing them out would be a way to hurt their popularity, as a way to keep them from going critical mass. But once they reached that point, jobbing them out wasn't going to work. You think I'm saying that them losing to others while actually losing no popularity is the issue. It isn't. </p><p> </p><p> What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should. </p><p> </p><p> The other conclusion is that, instead of WWE being controlling, it's that they are incompetent. </p><p> </p><p> So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right. </p><p> </p><p> Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent. </p><p> </p><p> I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.</p>

[TheEdgeOfReason]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Again, you miss out on my point. Jobbing them out would be a way to hurt their popularity, as a way to keep them from going critical mass. But once they reached that point, jobbing them out wasn't going to work. You think I'm saying that them losing to others while actually losing no popularity is the issue. It isn't. <p> </p><p> What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should. </p><p> </p><p> The other conclusion is that, instead of WWE being controlling, it's that they are incompetent. </p><p> </p><p> So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right. </p><p> </p><p> Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent. </p><p> </p><p> I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well if its a case of being controlling, why don't they bring 4/5 guys to the level of John Cena popularity, it would make them so much stronger as a company.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>Well... they can't do it for everyone. But I can see it for some of them. The Miz. Kofi Kingston. Cody Rhodes. Maybe Wade Barrett and John Morrison. I dislike Morrison's ringwork, and Wade Barrett doesn't impress me... but I can see why they would push them.</p><p> </p><p>

They are trying hard to push Sheamus, Drew McIntyre, and Ted Dibiase, but they also suffer the same problem. They are very solid in terms of ringwork, but very, very basic. Lacking a some psychology, flash, charisma, and/or knowledge of brawling/technical/flying moves.</p>