The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Yes, it does.

 

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

 

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

 

So knock yourself out talking about he's a bad worker. Because it's just YOU. That's all. YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion but that's all it is. Cena has generated millions of dollars in revenue for the biggest promotion on the planet...that means A LOT more than whether or not he pleases the IWC

No, it's not just me. There's more people like there that believe what I believe. Is there much as there used to be? Heck no. You want to know why? They left. WWE has gained new fans, but they alienated some older ones. I'm one of the last of my kind. I'll eventually move on as well, if the trend continues.

 

Like I said, we'll know in 10 years or maybe early as 5 years as to who is right. I hope that I'm wrong, absolutely, possitively wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong, and that's what scares me.

[Slim Jim]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

 

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle

Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment

Sharpshooter -> STF

plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

 

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

 

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

 

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).

[jwt13]

I have to say that Raw was good it is the first time in about a year I can say I liked Raw more than Impact

[ampulator]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

 

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle

Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment

Sharpshooter -> STF

plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

 

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

 

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

 

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).

The quality of workers have stayed the same, but the quality of the matches from the top workers have declined.

 

I'm not necessarily the matches have declined overall, because that's not true. But form the top workers? Yes, they have. It's not a matter of talent, either. It's matter of what they are allowed and not allowd to do.

 

As for this happens, it's because the WWE either prevents and/or forbids their top workers from doing certain things. Now, I understand if they want them to do stupid high-risk stuff, but to completely script their matches is stupid. It makes their matches look boring and stale.

[Basmat01]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

 

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle

Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment

Sharpshooter -> STF

plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

 

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

 

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

 

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).

 

Worst Catchphase EVER!!!!!

[LoganRodzen]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest.

 

My lady has decided to give me the coolest Christmas present of all time... ROYAL RUMBLE TICKETS! And she told me about it early... what a gal.

 

Yep. January 30th I will be at the TD Garden in Boston watching one of the coolest PPV's ever. I'm really pumped about it because my older brother is going with us along with his wife (a double date at wrestling?!). My brother actually works for TD Bank in their fraud department and he can get discounted tickets for events there. I've gone to RAW with him there for $15 (not the best seats, but you can see from everywhere in that arena).

 

I've been to a couple Smackdown tapings, two RAW live events, and Summerslam '06 (Orton vs Hogan and DX vs McMahon's). I'm really pumped to go to another PPV and having gone to Summerslam - I now need to go to just a few more "BIG" PPV's - Wrestlemania and Survivor Series. If King of the Ring was still around I'd need to go to that.

 

Anyone else ever gone to the Royal Rumble or going this year? Stories! Please share!

 

 

EDIT: Even though I don't follow wrestling week to week, I try to stay "current" on things that are happening. I'm still pumped to go see it and I'll probably watch RAW all of January so that I know what's happening when I'm there, ha.

[supershot]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest.

 

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but since it's thanksgiving...

 

I'd say shes a keeper

[Linsolv]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest.

 

Listen, Logan. I think we can all agree that it would've been rude to say that to you, because it would've heavily implied that we didn't trust your taste in women.

[Genadi]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest.

 

I just noticed this, lucky man! In light of recent events....

 

 

Miss Rodzen has gained popularity from this segment

 

Miss Rodzen has gained respect from this segment

 

Miss Rodzen has seen a boost to her Babyface performance skill from this segment

 

Logan Rodzen is now Loyal to Miss Rodzen

[BHK1978]

My lady has decided to give me the coolest Christmas present of all time... ROYAL RUMBLE TICKETS! And she told me about it early... what a gal.

 

Yep. January 30th I will be at the TD Garden in Boston watching one of the coolest PPV's ever. I'm really pumped about it because my older brother is going with us along with his wife (a double date at wrestling?!). My brother actually works for TD Bank in their fraud department and he can get discounted tickets for events there. I've gone to RAW with him there for $15 (not the best seats, but you can see from everywhere in that arena).

 

I've been to a couple Smackdown tapings, two RAW live events, and Summerslam '06 (Orton vs Hogan and DX vs McMahon's). I'm really pumped to go to another PPV and having gone to Summerslam - I now need to go to just a few more "BIG" PPV's - Wrestlemania and Survivor Series. If King of the Ring was still around I'd need to go to that.

 

Anyone else ever gone to the Royal Rumble or going this year? Stories! Please share!

 

 

EDIT: Even though I don't follow wrestling week to week, I try to stay "current" on things that are happening. I'm still pumped to go see it and I'll probably watch RAW all of January so that I know what's happening when I'm there, ha.

 

I was thinking about going but then I remembered how much I hate the Fleet Center or whatever it is called now. That arena just stinks. Especially if you have cheap seats (which I often have). The seats in the upper part of the arena are built so that you are slanted forward, which makes you feel like you are going to fall forward, at least for me anyway. Also, it cost an arm and a leg to park anywhere remotely close to the Fleet Center.

 

I went to the Royal Rumble at MSG a couple of years ago (another arena that I am not fond of) and it was a good show. My major gripe was about the arena and not the show. They pretty much opened the arena to the public like a half an hour before the show began so it ended up being a sea of people all entering the building at once which I was not happy about at all. And then MSG itself is horribly dated on the inside. One can tell that it was built in the late 1960's.

 

I also went to the 1994 Royal Rumble which was at the Providence Civc Center. However, I do not recall much about it.

 

It sucks that they are holding in Boston because the Royal Rumble is my favorite PPV (yes even over Wrestle Mania, which much like the Super Bowl, is way over-hyped). I just wish that if they were going to have it in New England they would have it in Providence or Hartford because those arenas are just better in my opinion. Plus in Providence you do not have to pay to park if you are willing to walk a little bit.

[lazorbeak]

Yes, it does.

 

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

 

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

 

So knock yourself out talking about he's a bad worker. Because it's just YOU. That's all. YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion but that's all it is. Cena has generated millions of dollars in revenue for the biggest promotion on the planet...that means A LOT more than whether or not he pleases the IWC

 

No, it's not just me. There's more people like there that believe what I believe. Is there much as there used to be? Heck no. You want to know why? They left. WWE has gained new fans, but they alienated some older ones. I'm one of the last of my kind. I'll eventually move on as well, if the trend continues.

 

Like I said, we'll know in 10 years or maybe early as 5 years as to who is right. I hope that I'm wrong, absolutely, possitively wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong, and that's what scares me.

 

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one. You said no one can convince you that Cena is a good worker (despite throwing your hands up as to how he produced very good matches with guys like Umaga), and Hilton followed that up with a reasonable defense, namely, that in a worked sport, getting people to pay to see you is the DEFINITION of being a good worker. Making Cena one of the top workers of the freaking decade. And no amount of nit-picking that his 5 moves aren't executed as crisply as Bret Hart's five moves is going to make an iota of difference to the fact that he gets people to pay to see him.

 

And you followed that up with something about how you're one of the last of your kind. If "your kind" is workrate obsessed smarks who poo-poo everything WWE does because it doesn't fit your taste in product, good! Because those so-called smarks have a rudimentary understanding of how the business works, make heroes out of guys that have never, ever made money at a job where making money is the goal, and otherwise go around acting personally offended that they don't get to watch "3 star" matches on free TV, despite the fact that nothing like that has ever existed in the history of professional wrestling. It's a fake sport about human drama, not what moves you're allowed to do. If you don't understand that, maybe a) don't watch, and b) please stop talking about it.

[Genadi]

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one. You said no one can convince you that Cena is a good worker (despite throwing your hands up as to how he produced very good matches with guys like Umaga), and Hilton followed that up with a reasonable defense, namely, that in a worked sport, getting people to pay to see you is the DEFINITION of being a good worker. Making Cena one of the top workers of the freaking decade.

 

I disagree with your definition of a good worker, I don't think there is one. Some people enjoyed a guy like Benoit's work to the point they consider him the greatest worker of all time. Others prefer Hogan and believe he's the greatest worker ever (for the reasons you gave about drawing). I said before it's largely subjective and the fact that a reasonable debate can be had over Hogan vs Benoit only reinforces that.

 

It's a discussion board guys, we come here to trade thoughts and share opinions. Not prove who knows better about a fake sport that is controlled by promoters, bookers and fans making it (one more time ) subjective. Let's not be like the 99% of boards out there where this petty stuff takes place, it really is tired and cliche to a wrestling forum.

[lazorbeak]

I disagree with your definition of a good worker, I don't think there is one. Some people enjoyed a guy like Benoit's work to the point they consider him the greatest worker of all time. Others prefer Hogan and believe he's the greatest worker ever (for the reasons you gave about drawing). I said before it's largely subjective and the fact that a reasonable debate can be had over Hogan vs Benoit only reinforces that.

 

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.

 

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you' date=' you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy [sic'] their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

 

2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

 

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."

[ampulator]

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.

 

 

 

2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

 

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."

Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.

 

Second, I hope to the highest power he's right, and that I'm wrong. I WANT TO BELIEVE IN HIM. I REALLY DO. But I just can't. Not after everything I've seen. It CAN'T go on like this. This IS NOT a cyclical siutation. This Is NOT business as usual. The territories are dead. If this business shrinks and WWE is not up to the task, this business that I love to watch so much is going to die a slow death. I want to believe. I want him to be right. But his evidence is a drop of water in a huge pond. He thinks it's just about money, pure dollar signs. But it's a short term gain in exchange for long-term planning.

 

I fear I may be see the last days of pro-wrestling. This the slow death that no one predicted. That few would see. I always thought it was go down fight at the very least, kicking and screaming before death would take it.

 

Instead, one piece at time, a drip-drop loss is what it's suffering. And it terrifies me that I'm seeing this and I can't do anything about it.

[Genadi]

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.

Lol, well you gave it so whoevers it is I think is stupid, I explained why

 

2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

 

I could've said the exact same thing to you, I didn't want to come across as a pretentious douche so I refrained

 

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."

 

Why am I not suprised you don't. No one said you can't have an opinion on something subjective, actually that's pretty much what I was saying in my post. I find it funny you talk about data and facts in wrestling, extremely funny

[jwt13]

Yes, it does.

 

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

 

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

 

I completely agree, IMO this iswhat a good worker is someone who can put asses in seats this is also why I don't love some of the IWC's favorites such as Danielson, Low Ki, and Chris Daniels as I don't think they have the ability to draw people into watch the show or go to a show on a big time level

[Genadi]

Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.

 

Second, I hope to the highest power he's right, and that I'm wrong. I WANT TO BELIEVE IN HIM. I REALLY DO. But I just can't. Not after everything I've seen. It CAN'T go on like this.

 

This IS NOT a cyclical siutation. This Is NOT business as usual. The territories are dead. If this business shrinks and WWE is not up to the task, this business that I love to watch so much is going to die a slow death.

 

I want to believe. I want him to be right. But his evidence is a drop of water in a huge pond.

 

Amp, if anyone ever replies to one of your posts opening with this...

 

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one.

 

You should know it's a lost cause Unless you too thought you were competing for the intwerwebz epeen trophy don't feed him

[The Final Countdown]

It's a discussion board guys, we come here to trade thoughts and share opinions. Not prove who knows better about a fake sport that is controlled by promoters, bookers and fans making it (one more time ) subjective. Let's not be like the 99% of boards out there where this petty stuff takes place, it really is tired and cliche to a wrestling forum.

Amen to that. I've seen this argument, or a slight variation of it, pop up several times since I've been a member of these boards, and nothing ever comes of it. People simply have different views on what makes someone a good 'worker', and no amount of 'no, THIS is what makes someone a good worker' is going to change that fact.

 

On the specific topic of John Cena: I think he gets a bad rap from a lot of the IWC for his "work rate", to use a smarkish term. The guy can put on some really good matches, in my opinion.

[lazorbeak]

Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.

 

But you weren't presenting anything to the contrary. I don't see why you think this situation is any different from what happened in the mid-1990's, when we saw aging stars phased out in conjunction with a decline in interest that simultaneously saw the business dry up all over the country.

 

Further, I don't see what that has to do with whether John Cena is a good worker. Again, to work the Bret Hart comparison, Bret's 5 moves may have been more crisply executed, but Cena still draws more money than Hart ever did.

 

I could've said the exact same thing to you, I didn't want to come across as

a pretentious douche so I refrained

 

If you think things like "facts" make someone a pretentious douche, I don't know what to tell you. Again, this isn't even my argument. They're not my facts. So maybe you should keep that in mind before saying something that makes you look like a joke?

 

Why am I not suprised you don't. No one said you can't have an opinion on something subjective, actually that's pretty much what I was saying in my post. I find it funny you talk about data and facts in wrestling, extremely funny

 

Yes Virginia, arguments are won and lost via facts. In any subject. Ever. In the history of time.

[Genadi]

Ahh LB again picking and choosing which part of his "argument" to stick with and defend I've got 5 mins spare so I'll play along for old times sake...

 

 

 

If you think things like "facts" make someone a pretentious douche, I don't know what to tell you...

 

Not facts, this....

 

If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on.

 

Your own words, only a page back

 

Yes Virginia, arguments are won and lost via facts. In any subject. Ever. In the history of time.

 

Dang and I was trying so hard to win this argument, I can feel my epeen shrinking as a result This post proves once again you completely missed the point, but please don't let me stop you from arguing (and winning!) the facts about wrastlin.

[lazorbeak]

So, how about that WWE, eh? I hear the Miz is champion! That guy is Awesome!

[The Final Countdown]

So, how about that WWE, eh? I hear the Miz is champion! That guy is Awesome!

Nice transition.

 

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

[Genadi]

Nice transition.

 

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

 

Agreed

[lazorbeak]

Nice transition.

 

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

 

Sometimes it's better not to take the bait.

 

He really has been something else. I wasn't a fan until his US title run late last year, but he's really shown he can thrive at the top. Some of his promos have been just amazing.

[djthefunkchris]

Amen to that. I've seen this argument, or a slight variation of it, pop up several times since I've been a member of these boards, and nothing ever comes of it. People simply have different views on what makes someone a good 'worker', and no amount of 'no, THIS is what makes someone a good worker' is going to change that fact.

 

On the specific topic of John Cena: I think he gets a bad rap from a lot of the IWC for his "work rate", to use a smarkish term. The guy can put on some really good matches, in my opinion.

 

I don't get into the IWC or any other stuff outside of this one.

 

I honestly think we would have a higher level of agree on something like this if we talked specifically what the worker is good at rather then an overall "This worker is better because he's more popular" outlook.

 

Since we have TEW, perhaps a discussion on how we would rate TEW'ish Stats would be better. I would rate Cena only ok on brawling, about the same as mat work, and higher on Technical then I would on Submissions (although he submits alot more then he "rastle's" at this point... various match's in the past as well as some not so much in the past (even that match with Miz's star showed him looking alot more veteran-like in the technical department then his opponant) has showed he can put forth something like that.

 

What is work-rate? Cena has had some of the longest match's I've seen or heard about in the last decade? I take it work-rate is talking about his move-set moreso then his actual work in a match???

 

I would rate Cena very high on personality skills, such as charisma, mic skills, psychology, etc. He's also ussually a pretty safe worker. He's very physical, strong, etc. There are lots of things he is really good with that bring out what there is to like about him, and why "certain" people like him.

 

Looking at some of the new search engines like Bing visual search, etc... You can find Cena (60 on that list) is found to be more popular then HHH, HBK, Austin, the Rock (#355), and even Hogan. http://www.bing.com/visualsearch?g=popular_celebrities&qpvt=Celebrities&FORM=Z9GE24#

 

Then again, Lady Gaga as number 1? /shudder.

 

Anyways, looking at it from a perspective like that shows Cena has not only become as big as icon's of old, but has even passed the "attitude" generation as well.... Meaning he is in today's wrestling, the biggest name out there, and it's not even just a "little bit". Realising that these types of search engines are going to be the "majority" of people period, not necessarily wrestling fans, or even people that watch wrestling. The people I mentioned have obviously made it into the mainstream of viewer's..... Not unlike how people that didn't watch boxing knew who Muhammed Ali was, or for that matter Mike Tyson. Mainstream appeal gaines ussually helps with gaining new viewer's, and at the same time, they become known in the mainstream community because they have the "it" factor, or are just notorious for being naughty. The former meaning that people found them entertaining outside of the Wrestling world/caught people's eye.

 

It's humbling to look things up, especially when you find the same thing's out everytime you look it up unless you go to extremes.