The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

I dont think it has ever been quite this bad though. Plus they always bring out the big guns for Wrestlemania.

What do you mean "this bad"? Heck, they should have done this for LAST Wrestlemania. The situation doesn't change that fast within a year. This is a culmination of what's been happening ever seen WCW died. But this year isn't that different from last year.

 

That being said, you ARE correct about the "big guns" for Wrestlemania, but this is rather desperate for them. It looks as if they are admitting that banking on mostly John Cena isn't enough anymore (and that's just odd to me).

[Teh_Showtime]

its more obvious this year though because look at the 3 marquee matches from last year.

 

Cena vs Batista

 

HBK vs Taker

 

Edge vs Jericho

 

only 3 of them are still wrestling, and the possible replacements have since stalled through retarded booking. (Sheamus, Morrison, Swagger, etc)

[jbergey_2005]

What do you mean "this bad"? Heck, they should have done this for LAST Wrestlemania. The situation doesn't change that fast within a year. This is a culmination of what's been happening ever seen WCW died. But this year isn't that different from last year.

 

That being said, you ARE correct about the "big buns" for Wrestlemania, but this is rather desperate for them. It looks as if they are admitting that banking on mostly John Cena isn't enough anymore (and that's just odd to me).

 

Well I mean they have lost Ric Flair, HBK, Benoit, Booker T(athough now he is back as an announcer), JBL, Batista, Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho and some others over the past 4-5 years in which it eventually gets to the point they have just lost too much to overcome. This next 2-3 years for the WWE sort of reminds me of the time after Hogan left and before the attitude era. Basically, not really sure how they want to move forward and filling gaps until they figure it out.

[ampulator]

its more obvious this year though because look at the 3 marquee matches from last year.

 

Cena vs Batista

 

HBK vs Taker

 

Edge vs Jericho

 

only 3 of them are still wrestling, and the possible replacements have since stalled through retarded booking. (Sheamus, Morrison, Swagger, etc)

"Retarded booking" is the norm, not the exception. So, even if some of their bigger stars are gone, they are going to survive. If it's about the PPV's and the lack of money, it's because of...

 

1. There are too many PPVs these days.

2. There are too many gimmick PPVs these days.

3. There are too many inconsequential PPVs these days.

4. PPV's are no longer a popular as it once was.

5. Their PPVs are more expensive these days.

 

Combine all that, and OF COURSE their PPV numbers are going down. Some are inevitable (PPV's no longer as popular), some they can control to an extent (the price of a PPV, the amount of PPVs) and others, are entirely their fault (inconsequential PPVs, and Gimmicky PPVs). I think the last one particularly is a sticking point with me... seriously, do we NEED a HIAC PPV? It might boost numbers short term, but the long term, this shoots themselves in the foot.

[Teh_Showtime]

what do PPV numbers have to do with the lack of stars?

 

Unless indirectly because they want to keep their sure things to make sure they can keep PPV buys

[ampulator]

what do PPV numbers have to do with the lack of stars?

 

Unless indirectly because they want to keep their sure things to make sure they can keep PPV buys

I don't think they have a lack of stars. What they DO lack, though, is that BIG star. You know, the BIG one, ala Hulk Hogan, the Rock, or Steve Austin. They tried to make Cena this year, but they shot themselves in the foot with him.

[jbergey_2005]

I don't think they have a lack of stars. What they DO lack, though, is that BIG star. You know, the BIG one, ala Hulk Hogan, the Rock, or Steve Austin. They tried to make Cena this year, but they shot themselves in the foot with him.

 

I dont see Cena as being the problem. Its that they lack Main Event depth. You can only have Cena vs Orton so many times before people get sick of it.

 

The Rock and Austin had each other along with Undertaker, HBK, Vince McMahon, Mankind, Big Show, HHH and a few other guys they could headline with.

[ampulator]

I dont see Cena as being the problem. Its that they lack Main Event depth. You can only have Cena vs Orton so many times before people get sick of it.

I never said he was the problem.... he certrainly IS the symptom, though. As for Main Event depth, you are correct, but that's the WWE's own fault. They have tons of stars, but none of which are Main Event caliber because of misbooking.

[jbergey_2005]

I never said he was the problem.... he certrainly IS the symptom, though. As for Main Event depth, you are correct, but that's the WWE's own fault. They have tons of stars, but none of which are Main Event caliber because of misbooking.

 

I agree. The gap is huge between the midcard and the Main Event right now and a huge part of that is their own booking issues. Stables are a great way around that but apparently the big stables are a thing of the past. It was nice to see it brought back this year with NEXUS and they were instantly bumped up a few spots higher on the card because of it.

 

You give Miz a stable with Mark Henry and Big Show in it and he would be a Main Event threat instead of a "weak" champion.

[ampulator]

I agree. The gap is huge between the midcard and the Main Event right now and a huge part of that is their own booking issues. Stables are a great way around that but apparently the big stables are a thing of the past. It was nice to see it brought back this year with NEXUS and they were instantly bumped up a few spots higher on the card because of it.

There's another problem... I don't blame the WWE for this, but ever since regional promotions have died, there has been places for workers to develop into their own. Guys like Ted Dibiase and Jake Roberts don't exist automatically... they work in the minors, honing their craft, exposing themselves to different styles, promotions, people, and audiences.

 

The WWE's insistence on having "home-grown" talent hurts them, and they've probably come to recgonize that. Hogan had his start outside the WWE. He didn't become Hogan without working his way around.

[jbergey_2005]

There's another problem... I don't blame the WWE for this, but ever since regional promotions have died, there has been places for workers to develop into their own. Guys like Ted Dibiase and Jake Roberts don't exist automatically... they work in the minors, honing their craft, exposing themselves to different styles, promotions, people, and audiences.

 

The WWE's insistence on having "home-grown" talent hurts them, and they've probably come to recgonize that. Hogan had his start outside the WWE. He didn't become Hogan without working his way around.

 

Indeed! I wonder if the next step for the WWE isnt bringing back the territory system as sort of their minor league umbrella to help create this sort development that was so successful at one time.

 

Its gotta be a pain in the ass trying to create stars out of people that few have ever heard of that doesnt do remarkable things with the mic. Part of their current programming could be going around their different minor league affiliates and have us care about who the future big stars are.

 

I remember when storylines would last for 8-12 months with them only have 1-3 matches against each other(not counting house shows). The PPVs were simply must watch TV. The TV shows were for making the attractions look strong and moving along storylines. Im not sure why they ever got away from that. All we get now is recycled feuds and recycled storylines.

 

I guess Id rather watch star vs jobber than star vs star with cheap endings the majority of the time. Its hard to make your midcard look strong when they are constantly fed to your main eventers on live TV.

 

In 1987 you wouldnt see the British Bulldogs getting fed to King Kong Bundy/Big John Studd just to make them look better so the Bulldogs were interesting and were thought of as a great tag team. I dont understand why the WWE today insists on treating their tag champs as jobbers.

 

You would hardly see anyone midcard or above lose. It made them all appear strong. Im not sure if jobber matches would still work but dI like it better than 1/2 the roster in PPVs seemingly appearing weak.

 

Koko B Ware was pretty much a PPV jobber in the late 80s however he won a lot of matches on TV so it made it appear he was a threat to whomever he was facing in the PPV.

 

Sorry for the rambling. I just miss the booking during the Golden Era. The matches werent that great(5-10min) but the outcomes were usually up in the air and they had a sense of purpose.

[evileddie10]

Did anyone else mark out for John Cena rapping again....Or was it just me?

I will say that the "PG-ness" of WWE seems to be wearing off, Several "riskque" lines and references in the Cena rap, Rock swearing...I dont know, maybe its just me, but I think they are moving away slightly from the "PG-era" or at least pushing it to its limits...

[1234]

So if Carlito came back, would it be acceptable to have him in the world title match at THE biggest show of the year?

 

Ok, maybe poor choice of words by me.

 

In Christians case it doesnt matter. I have been talking to a friend about this (not an internet wrestling fan, just an average WWE viewer) and like me all he remembers about Christian's run on Smackdown (what he was doing before he took time off for the injury) is that he got injured.

 

Maybe internet wrestling fans are different but people I know that just watch casually dont seem to care if Christian was jobbing to Rhodes, because the that is now irrelevant.

 

Adding Christian would make things more exciting because:

A) He got injured by ADR. He needs revenge. (And its not like Christian is unpopular and would drag the match down)

B) The history of E&C. I think everyone I have spoken to (Internet & Casual fans) want to see Edge vs Christian. And this could be a prelude to it.

 

And I suppose the main reason I want it is something fresh & entertaining at the top. We need more variety at the top of the card and Christian would give that, and undoubtably has the skills to be at the top. And maybe my friends and I are part of the minority but I really dont see the downside to adding Christian.

[juggaloninjalee]

The Undertaker video was for that? I was really dissappointed. The show overall was a big let down for me. I was really excited going into that show and then came out of it feeling let down. Oh well...

[Linsolv]

You would hardly see anyone midcard or above lose. It made them all appear strong. Im not sure if jobber matches would still work but dI like it better than 1/2 the roster in PPVs seemingly appearing weak.

 

Yes, they still work today. That's exactly what they did with Sheamus. He was out there putting jobbers in the hospital every night. Lo and behold, everyone thought he was a major league butt-kicker!

 

Well, except us with the IWC. We all seemed to be like "Meh, he's only taking out jobbers." Ironic in a way.

[ampulator]

Yes, they still work today. That's exactly what they did with Sheamus. He was out there putting jobbers in the hospital every night. Lo and behold, everyone thought he was a major league butt-kicker!

 

Well, except us with the IWC. We all seemed to be like "Meh, he's only taking out jobbers." Ironic in a way.

I don't know. He lost to Mark Henry last night, of all people.

[PeterHilton]

The probelme with the Sheamus push WAS that he only took out jobbers.

 

If he'd beaten up a bunch of nobodies, and then followed that upby cleanly pinning ANYONE in the main event scene, he'd have been cemented as a legit top of the card guy.

 

But he got a bunch of fluke wins over Cena, cheated over and over (even though he was supposed to be a monster heel) , and then repeated that process against Orton.

 

Other than Trips, he didn't get a clean win over an established main eventer, then struggled through some midcard feud with Morrison.

 

And now that Trips is back, with no mention of the fact that Sheamus was the one who put him out, his push of last year is pretty muh pointless.

 

Now...that is just the write up for Sheamus...but amp is right: the reason the WWE is struggling with their main event is because they haven't really established any main event level stars since Hardy/Punk (and even Punk has been treated a little iffy since then).

 

And...(and this is one I tend to harp on) their talent evaluation and development hasn't worked out the way they hoped.

[The Two]

I won't deny I enjoyed Cena's opening promo, and it really made me want to see Rock beat the living hell out of him, but that just makes it worse knowing there's no chance Rock will wrestle a match.

 

During HHH's entrance and posing it did occur to me, "Hey, it would be cool if they managed this without a single word," but after seeing it happen I now wish something had been said. The biggest problem is that both have just returned from a long absence, and while I get the match has been made, you got no indication of why it's going to happen. Why does Hunter want to face Taker?

 

Just watching Taker's reaction when Hunter started staring at the Mania logo, it felt like he was thinking about The Streak. He looks at the Mania logo, looks at Hunter, "You want me at Mania?", smirks, shakes his head, "No, you're not worth it." Taker starts to walk away, the crowd boos, he stops, thinks about it, turns back to HHH, "Fine, but I'm gonna kill you", gives the cutthroat gesture.

 

You don't know whether Hunter just wants a crack at breaking The Streak, whether he wants a rematch for WM17, whether he's looking to avenge HBK, or if it's something else entirely. You also don't know whether one or the other will take up a heelish position or if it's face vs face.

 

I know we've got 6 weeks, and that can all be drawn out over time, but it would have been nice at the start of the feud to have some idea of the motivation behind it.

 

That said, I'm still psyched about the match, so I'm not gonna complain. I'm also way happier than I should be about seeing Lawler beating the hell out of Cole.

 

The double tag title change was entirely pointless, there's no reason Miz couldn't have laid out Cena for the first fall. To be honest, I'm just relieved we're not gonna be forced to suffer through the "Oh no! The World Title opponents are Tag Champs! How ever will they co-exist as partners while feuding over the World Title?" Feud... again.

[eayragt]

And regarding the Tag Team titles, there's just no way it's going to just be Corre vs Nexus. No-one would care. You've got to throw in at least Santino and Koslov.

 

Although I wasn convinced that 'Taker vs 'H wasn't going to happen, so what do I know?

[PeterHilton]

And regarding the Tag Team titles, there's just no way it's going to just be Corre vs Nexus. No-one would care. You've got to throw in at least Santino and Koslov.

 

Although I wasn convinced that 'Taker vs 'H wasn't going to happen, so what do I know?

 

IIRC last year the titles were defended in by ShowMiz against RTruth and Morrison in a short, thrown together at the last second, opening match that literally did nothing for anyone involved.

 

"No one would care" isn't relly a reason for that match not to happen

[eayragt]

IIRC last year the titles were defended in by ShowMiz against RTruth and Morrison in a short, thrown together at the last second, opening match that literally did nothing for anyone involved.

 

"No one would care" isn't relly a reason for that match not to happen

 

Yeah, but not only would no-one care but it would be a heel / heel match. At WrestleMania. You can get away with face / face when you put two Main Eventers against one another some of the time - try heel / heel with two midcard teams... not even WWE are that stupid, are they?

[PeterHilton]

Yeah, but not only would no-one care but it would be a heel / heel match. At WrestleMania. You can get away with face / face when you put two Main Eventers against one another some of the time - try heel / heel with two midcard teams... not even WWE are that stupid, are they?

 

Depends on the build. I think quite a few fans dug the original Nexus group in a snarky "this is a young talented heel stable" kind of way and Gabriel/Slater w/Barrett in their corner would get quite a few supporters in a match against whatever 'new' members of Nexus would be thrown out there.

 

I really don't see it as being a bad possibility and at least a match wrapped around "Nexus bragging rights" would have some type of storyline.

[Jaysin]

Feel the BANG!

 

I've never been to that site before, but DDP posted it on his facebook page. I for one would LOVE to see him get into the Hall of Fame. He's always been in my top 10 favorites list and he was one of WCW's biggest stars without being a former star in WWE(Sting, Booker T, and Goldberg are the other 3 really).

[Teh_Showtime]

Bleacher is a great site, that has lots of good reads.

[ampulator]

The probelme with the Sheamus push WAS that he only took out jobbers.

 

If he'd beaten up a bunch of nobodies, and then followed that upby cleanly pinning ANYONE in the main event scene, he'd have been cemented as a legit top of the card guy.

 

But he got a bunch of fluke wins over Cena, cheated over and over (even though he was supposed to be a monster heel) , and then repeated that process against Orton.

 

Other than Trips, he didn't get a clean win over an established main eventer, then struggled through some midcard feud with Morrison.

 

And now that Trips is back, with no mention of the fact that Sheamus was the one who put him out, his push of last year is pretty muh pointless.

 

That's pretty much it.

 

Now...that is just the write up for Sheamus...but amp is right: the reason the WWE is struggling with their main event is because they haven't really established any main event level stars since Hardy/Punk (and even Punk has been treated a little iffy since then).

 

And...(and this is one I tend to harp on) their talent evaluation and development hasn't worked out the way they hoped.

Now, I will say ONE positive thing about WWE's development... they have managed to have guys, at the very least, to be safe and understanding the basics in the ring. I have no issue with that.

 

What I do have an issue with, though, is these guys aren't very good at anything else. Yes, I know WWE isn't about ring-work, but even by their own standards, some of the guys they have are rather thin by modern standards when it comes to having more ring work. It's not the WWE 80's anymore.

 

And at the very least, if they don't have ring, their selling and psychology (not all cases) are subpar. Before anyone says there is no such thing as "psychology", watch a Jake Roberts vs. Ted Dibiase match, and then watch a Ted Dibiase Jr. match against John Morrision. Jake Roberts vs. Ted Dibiase is a much better match.

 

Both Ted Jr. and Morrison know more moves than Dibiase and Roberts do, so ringwork isn't the issue here. One may cite experience, but both Ted Jr. and Morrison have been wrestling for a while, so it's not a good excuse. The difference in the match is... psychology. Plain and simple.