The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Stennick]

Your inability to name a single wrestler that could be in Cena's spot and do better as well as replace him says all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

Is John Cena the best pure wrestler of a generation? Absolutely not, but there is nobody that is a better proffesional wrestler over the last six years. The guy has made more money, main event more pay per views, sold more merchandise, drawn the praise of everyone from Shawn Michaels to Hulk Hogan (before you say their just company men Shawn praised Punk as well). Everything you ask a pro wrestler to be this man has been. He's gone and been involved in movies for the WWE Studios, he's been in parades, on talk shows. The guy is literally everywhere and I'm pretty sure he's made more wishes than anyone else come true on the "Make a Wish Foundation".

 

Nobody has done more in the last decade than John Cena. Pro Wrestling isn't about "movez" its about making money, drawing fans to make more money, selling merchandise to make everyone money.

 

Also yes Hogan was not only the greatest pro wrestler of his generation but he's the second biggest money maker of all time behind Stone Cold Steve Austin. You can also argue the reason Austin made more money is because RAW didn't exist in Hogan's era, hell pay per view didn't exist until WM2 or 3 and was in its infancy for much longer than that. The WWE as a whole hadn't figured out the merchandise and other ways of draining money from people's pockets to perfection until the late eighties halfway through Hogan's run. Not too mention while Austin was making the WWE money Hogan was the hottest heel act in forever in WCW drawing in truckloads MORE cash for them. So yes Hogan was the greatest of a generation and probably the greatest pro wrestling of all time. I know that must be hard to accept but its as close to fact as you're going to get with very little room for argument.

[shawn michaels]

Pretty sure that dress code story was a hoax. But yeah, Punk's been on a terrible decline since his title loss.

 

 

 

Finding someone who could do it better than Cena is already a stretch, but flat-out replacing Cena is a no-no. You can't replace what is booming, and Cena has been booming for years like a.. well, a goldmine. They need to keep Orton and Cena on top, especially with all the veterans who peace'd out recently. "A lot of people would pull it off" sounds so naive, you act like Cena's current status is a dime a dozen which is just laughable. As much as I dislike Cena's character, there's no denying he had that something special which allowed him to transcend the main-event scene. The WWE will exist after him, big draws like that won't keep popping up like lottery tickets though.

 

Maybe my dislike for the man's character does make me over react about him. I'll give you that much. After all, the man has entertainement skills and the E is a sports entertainement promotion. Maybe it's not that easy to replace the man,i'll go that far. But he's not the best of his generation, or any other. And to praise him THAT much might be a little bit exteme.

 

 

Well there you go.

 

Right! There i go. THis is not something you can use to defend him. To admit i would like him if i was a pure mark or a kid is the same thing as saying i'd think that O-Town, blue or any other boy band are better then Springsteen or Metallica. Dude...kids and marks generally go with the bubble gum. Cena is bubble gum. Even if he does it well, he's still portrayed in a bubble gumish way.

 

That's what you wanna believe bro. Plenty of things the WWE have pushed with considerable hype only for said angle/superstar to fall flat on its face.

 

True! But who know how many could have been better or equal to him? To say that the answer is none is impossible! It would even be ridiculous. Can you prove it? YOu guys keep asking me to prove this and that. PRove that! YOu can't. It's impossible.

 

He's just been treated questionably lately, rather than overall. It's to note nearly all of those accomplishments date to like two years ago minimum. Ever since he lost the belt to Taker, he's been dwindling around the upper-midcard scene, just being "that guy" in "that position".

 

Agree.

 

Answers in bold again.

[shawn michaels]

Your inability to name a single wrestler that could be in Cena's spot and do better as well as replace him says all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

CM Punk. Your whole argument was just shattered. I named one.

 

Edit: "Pro wrestling isn't about "MOVEZ!"" WOW. Can you be more patronizing? (Did i spell it right?) Can you. Like i'm a mark or a 6 year old. TO say that to name the best is to point out who made more money is the same as saying that the best soccer player is the guy who scores more. And it ain't. That would be the same as saying Mario Jardel was the best player ever on the portuguese league or close to it. THose of you who don't know him or soccer...well you won't understand my point. My apologies in advance.

[lazorbeak]

Your inability to name a single wrestler that could be in Cena's spot and do better as well as replace him says all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

Is John Cena the best pure wrestler of a generation? Absolutely not, but there is nobody that is a better proffesional wrestler over the last six years. The guy has made more money, main event more pay per views, sold more merchandise, drawn the praise of everyone from Shawn Michaels to Hulk Hogan (before you say their just company men Shawn praised Punk as well). Everything you ask a pro wrestler to be this man has been. He's gone and been involved in movies for the WWE Studios, he's been in parades, on talk shows. The guy is literally everywhere and I'm pretty sure he's made more wishes than anyone else come true on the "Make a Wish Foundation".

 

Nobody has done more in the last decade than John Cena. Pro Wrestling isn't about "movez" its about making money, drawing fans to make more money, selling merchandise to make everyone money.

 

Also yes Hogan was not only the greatest pro wrestler of his generation but he's the second biggest money maker of all time behind Stone Cold Steve Austin. You can also argue the reason Austin made more money is because RAW didn't exist in Hogan's era, hell pay per view didn't exist until WM2 or 3 and was in its infancy for much longer than that. The WWE as a whole hadn't figured out the merchandise and other ways of draining money from people's pockets to perfection until the late eighties halfway through Hogan's run. Not too mention while Austin was making the WWE money Hogan was the hottest heel act in forever in WCW drawing in truckloads MORE cash for them. So yes Hogan was the greatest of a generation and probably the greatest pro wrestling of all time. I know that must be hard to accept but its as close to fact as you're going to get with very little room for argument.

 

Completely agreed. Pro wrestling is a work whose ultimate goal is taking money from the audience in exchange for watching people pretend to fight. The best measure of success is that money from the audience.

 

Also Cena works this way and cuts the promos he does because he knows it's successful: he's capable of "better" promos and "better" matches. You just have to look at his early Smackdown work or his OVW work to see he's capable of more athleticism than we see on a nightly basis. But that's not what made him millions of dollars, so why should he do it on a weekly basis? To say that he works this way because he's not talented displays uncanny ignorance of how the business works considering the present context.

 

It's like saying Michael Bay should make "better" movies because you don't like Transformers. It takes a lot of time, money, and effort, to make big dumb action like Transformers, and he's not going to change a formula that results in massive profits.

 

I mean I don't like Bay's work much either, but I get around that by watching something else instead, I don't whine about how he's a talentless moron and anyone could easily replace him as the director of record-breaking blockbusters.

 

True! But who know how many could have been better or equal to him? To say that the answer is none is impossible! It would even be ridiculous. Can you prove it? YOu guys keep asking me to prove this and that. PRove that! YOu can't. It's impossible.

 

Other people have been supporting their reasoning with evidence, while you... haven't. The onus isn't on them to explain why anyone should take the things you say seriously.

[shawn michaels]

Completely agreed. Pro wrestling is a work whose ultimate goal is taking money from the audience in exchange for watching people pretend to fight. The best measure of success is that money from the audience.

 

Also Cena works this way and cuts the promos he does because he knows it's successful: he's capable of "better" promos and "better" matches. You just have to look at his early Smackdown work or his OVW work to see he's capable of more athleticism than we see on a nightly basis. But that's not what made him millions of dollars, so why should he do it on a weekly basis? To say that he works this way because he's not talented displays uncanny ignorance of how the business works considering the present context.

 

It's like saying Michael Bay should make "better" movies because you don't like Transformers. It takes a lot of time, money, and effort, to make big dumb action like Transformers, and he's not going to change a formula that results in massive profits.

 

I mean I don't like Bay's work much either, but I get around that by watching something else instead, I don't whine about how he's a talentless moron and anyone could easily replace him as the director of record-breaking blockbusters.

 

I'm glad you said that. Your post proves you, and the other guys wrong. Pro Wrestling, just as movies, aren't just a money cow. Most people considers them to be artistic. And you don't see Transformers getting the oscar for best film. Cena is good as doing transformers and not an oscar winning film, to use your analogy. He migh be capable of it, (He isn't) he migh be capable of almost doing it...but he doesn't. And those who fee like it, may complain about him ,as much as you can defend him.

 

One thing is me saying he sucks. The other one is me thinking that i'm the owner of truth. I may be wrong about some things, as i'm not the owner of thruth, but i'm damn sure you're not right about all of them. So...there's no point in trying to reason with me by implying that i have to be wrong just because you see it that way, or by implying my opinion is not legit. Everyone has the right to say what they think. Or else i could also argue that i don't like Cena, I NEVER will, and all of you can cry about it, and it won't change my mind. SO...you really shouldn't cry about it. You don't care about what i think?? Great! Stop answering my post. I'm not going to change my mind, but i won't let people tell me that i HAVE to face the truth and the truth is Cena's greatness. No one id forced to agree with that point of view. I'm not saying some of you said i HAD to agree, but some of you did talk like i really had no choice but to agree. I have. I live in a free country, and i dislike the man. That will not change, and that is my constitutional right, as it is yours to disagree. At least i'm aware of that. I rest my case on this whole subject. Cause contrary to some of you i'm not trying to make you dislike Cena as you're trying to convince me into liking him. Wich the same as assuming your thoughts have to be the correct ones. Truly, i don't want to argue with anyone, and never because of John "I know only 5 wrestling moves" Cena. End of convesation. I'm not angry or offended with anyone, i like to talk without using ignorance, so i respect all your opinions, but this conversation would have to end eventually and i have better things to do.

 

I thank you all for the good debate. It's always good to have these "arguments" (so to speak) once in a while.

 

Edit: I backed my conclusions with my facts, as my conclusions are MY opinions, and not some ellaborate study...as this whole discussion is about MY opinion on Cena. And one of those conclusions was that the names weren't the issue (though i did throw a name into the table.) The point was discussing Cena itself. I don't really need to name anyone (i can even take some time and do a list when i have time,it that makes you sleep) because my point was never to discuss who could do it, my point was to discuss CENA especifically. Nad i backed my opinions based on what they are...my opinions. To say that Cena's match with A or B, or that Wrestler A or B is better then him proves anything is BS because it is also a matter of oppinion. It wouldn't prove anything if i made the damn list because it's a matter of OPINION. Maybe that's why there isnt' a world official ranking of best worker of all times that is recognizes by every soul on the planet. BECAUSE IT'S ARGUABLE, but not by just throwing names randomly. I could name guys who weren't pushed, you could disagree...i would ask you to 100% prove your point on something that hasn't happened, as you would too, and it would still be a matter of OPINION! SO, i don't have to face any facts....becasuse in my opinion he sucks! And guess what? I'm not alone on it. And guess what?? THat's the greatness of democracy and free will: No one is ever 100% right or wrong.

 

Edit 2: End of discussion. Time to get back on topic. So, please feel free to get back on topic. I won't be further fueling this discussion. But again, i thank you for the debate.

[lazorbeak]

I'm glad you said that. Your post proves you, and the other guys wrong. Pro Wrestling, just as movies, aren't just a money cow. Most people considers them to be artistic. And you don't see Transformers getting the oscar for best film. Cena is good as doing transformers and not an oscar winning film, to use your analogy. He migh be capable of it, (He isn't) he migh be capable of almost doing it...but he doesn't. And those who fee like it, may complain about him ,as much as you can defend him.

 

Wow. First, your statement makes no logical sense at all. I proved myself (and others) wrong? Maybe you just... aren't... getting it? The point is you're giving Cena this hard time assuming he can't do anything you like because he's busy making something profitable. That is a logical FALLACY. Steven Spielberg is an Oscar winning director and a master of his craft who's spent most of his career producing films that are primarily interested in making money. And he works in an industry that isn't descended from carnies hustling people. My point is, Cena chooses to make money and be successful, so to argue that that somehow "proves" that he sucks is incomprehensible.

 

One thing is me saying he sucks. The other one is me thinking that i'm the owner of truth. I may be wrong about some things, as i'm not the owner of thruth, but i'm damn sure you're not right about all of them. So...there's no point in trying to reason with me by implying that i have to be wrong just because you see it that way, or by implying my opinion is not legit. Everyone has the right to say what they think. Or else i could also argue that i don't like Cena, I NEVER will, and all of you can cry about it, and it won't change my mind. SO...you really shouldn't cry about it. You don't care about what i think?? Great! Stop answering my post. I'm not going to change my mind, but i won't let people tell me that i HAVE to face the truth and the truth is Cena's greatness. No one id forced to agree with that point of view. I'm not saying some of you said i HAD to agree, but some of you did talk like i really had no choice but to agree. I have. I live in a free country, and i dislike the man. That will not change, and that is my constitutional right, as it is yours to disagree. At least i'm aware of that. I rest my case on this whole subject. Cause contrary to some of you i'm not trying to make you dislike Cena as you're trying to convince me into liking him. Wich the same as assuming your thoughts have to be the correct ones. Truly, i don't want to argue with anyone, and never because of John "I know only 5 wrestling moves" Cena. End of convesation. I'm not angry or offended with anyone, i like to talk without using ignorance, so i respect all your opinions, but this conversation would have to end eventually and i have better things to do.

 

People are disagreeing with you because you're making outrageous points without evidence, doing things like challenging others to prove the things you're saying aren't true, the way debate doesn't work. Everyone has the right to say whatever flat-out crazy thoughts flutter about in their frontal lobes, but unfortunately, they have to deal with people disagreeing with their poorly thought out and unpersuasive statements. Because saying you have a "right" to an opinion doesn't mean every other person on the planet doesn't have the "right" to disagree with you when you don't make compelling arguments.

 

Also, as pointed out recently, Cena has significantly paired down his style because it sells, so your final conclusion is just as poorly thought out and incomprehensible as your opening points.

 

Edit: No, you did not back your opinions with "facts." You made outrageous statements about the guy's ability, his replace-ability, and Vince's love of "big guys." When facts were presented re: his ability, his appeal and merchandising abilities, and his whopping 0" height difference and 15 pound weight difference over "little guy" Shawn Michaels, you said it was up to everyone else to prove you wrong, which, again, is not how you convince anyone of anything. That you don't even understand that this is what I meant is pretty telling.

[Teh_Showtime]

I still get mad that John Cena hasnt yet mastered the suplex, as it looks like he lets go whilst falling back-every single time.

[nimo34]

If I could jump in here and say O-Town > Metallica. It's opinion and I would like to see you prove me wrong.

[shawn michaels]

I'm actually going to add something and then i'm off to sleep. My point is that as far as i know, Cena may not be able to perform the "academy award winning movies" cause i never seen him doing so. I don't need to prove nothing becase i already prove it by saing i never saw him doing so. If you have examples of matches and or promos where you think he gets to that level, you're the ones who have to back your statements up.

 

Good night to all of you. I'm off to bed.

[shawn michaels]

If I could jump in here and say O-Town > Metallica. It's opinion and I would like to see you prove me wrong.

 

THIS. It may be irony,but i can prove that as much as anyone can prove me that cena works better then a stuffed animal. BEside, no facts were presented about him beeing better. YOu presented OPINIONS. Not numbers, figures, absloute evidences of greatness. Now i'm really off to bed.

[lazorbeak]

BEside, no facts were presented about him beeing better. YOu presented OPINIONS. Not numbers, figures, absloute evidences of greatness. Now i'm really off to bed.

 

Somebody might need to go back to fact vs. opinion school. HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact. Cena's marketability is a fact. Cena being an all-time top draw is a fact. Here's more facts: Cena was WO wrestler of the year in 2007 and again in 2010, in addition to his five straight "most charismatic" awards. These are not opinions.

[brashleyholland]

THIS. It may be irony,but i can prove that as much as anyone can prove me that cena works better then a stuffed animal. BEside, no facts were presented about him beeing better. YOu presented OPINIONS. Not numbers, figures, absloute evidences of greatness. Now i'm really off to bed.

 

I did actually present evidence of him being a merchandising phenom (something you said he wasn't)...which you chose to ignore.

[lazorbeak]

I did actually present evidence of him being a merchandising phenom (something you said he wasn't)...which you chose to ignore.

 

Hence why your opinions were a well-reasoned and intelligent counter (no wonder they were ignored). Because they were based in facts, not asking others to prove that the things you said aren't true or saying (incorrectly) that everyone's opinion is equally relevant because no one is the "owner of the truth" (except, I assume, Ron Killings).

[brashleyholland]

Way off the current topic but I'm currently watching some old WCW event and just heard two of the most fantastic lines of commentary within seconds of each other. Terry Funk vs Normal Smiley in a hardcore match.

 

"That's not just any cookie sheet, that's one of those INDUSTRIAL-SIZED cookie sheets, and that has a LOT more torque to it!"

 

"Those shin guards Norman is wearing are giving his kicks a little extra punch"

 

Amazing.

[shawn michaels]

Somebody might need to go back to fact vs. opinion school. HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact. Cena's marketability is a fact. Cena being an all-time top draw is a fact. Here's more facts: Cena was WO wrestler of the year in 2007 and again in 2010, in addition to his five straight "most charismatic" awards. These are not opinions.

 

I did actually present evidence of him being a merchandising phenom (something you said he wasn't)...which you chose to ignore.

 

I said i was going to bed and that i wasn't answering to this topic anymore, but again i have to step in.

 

The 15 pound weight difference to hbk is no fact. That doesn't make Cena better. And as for awards: Did cena win PWI match of the year 11 times, 7 of those in a row? I could even say that if Shawn Michaels didn't have a 4 year carreer threatning injury we would have been far greater than cena as a money cow. There's another name to you guys. The second one. Plus, telling that Cena marketed a lot doesn't actually proves he's better than anyone. Only proves he's one of the best draws ever, not one of the best workers ever. Avatar is the biggest box office draw out there and i'm pretty sure it isn't on the #1 spot of the majority of the critics all time #1 movie list. Besides even if it was i could still find someone stating they hate avatar. So no matter how you back it up, you can't prove he is the best as i can't prove he's the worst. I can only say why i don't like him, and you can only say why you like him. We can't prove squat,as it is a MATTER of OPINION! The only thing we can prove without a doubt are certainties, such as math, science, historical facts that are documented, etc. Who is the best at something is ALWAYS a question of opinion. Again...free will.

So i din't ignore your facts, i just answered them. Happy? You will never prove he's the best, i will never prove he's that bad, unless he starts wrestling like the Great Khali. Hell...even khali has people who like him and think he can work. So...matter of opinion. I rest my case. Seriously, enough of this subject. I'm off to bed. This time is for real. 'Night to all of you.

 

EDIT:

 

Hence why your opinions were a well-reasoned and intelligent counter (no wonder they were ignored). Because they were based in facts, not asking others to prove that the things you said aren't true or saying (incorrectly) that everyone's opinion is equally relevant because no one is the "owner of the truth" (except, I assume, Ron Killings).

 

I liked the joke, but i just answered those MIGHTY (not) facts presented. I don't just talk because. I exposed a reason of thinking. Not in a very eloquent way, because of the language barrier (that hurts me a lot in this discussion) but i did backed my answers. Anyway, i really enjoyed the conversation. So, i'm not here screaming and complaining and ranting. That alone proves i'm not an ignorant saying i'm right just because.

[lazorbeak]

I said i was going to bed and that i wasn't answering to this topic anymore, but again i have to step in.

 

The 15 pound weight difference to hbk is no fact.

 

 

Wow. Just... wow. No one has said you're not allowed to dislike John Cena. But your other unsupported opinions were disagreed with by people that presented facts, and again, you asked for people to prove you wrong and generally misunderstood what the difference between fact and opinion was while opining that you're just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. Again, everyone else is just as entitled to disagree with you when you say things that aren't supported by "facts" or "reason."

[lazorbeak]

Way off the current topic but I'm currently watching some old WCW event and just heard two of the most fantastic lines of commentary within seconds of each other. Terry Funk vs Normal Smiley in a hardcore match.

 

"That's not just any cookie sheet, that's one of those INDUSTRIAL-SIZED cookie sheets, and that has a LOT more torque to it!"

 

"Those shin guards Norman is wearing are giving his kicks a little extra punch"

 

Amazing.

 

I love the Norman Smiley hardcore angle. I know hardcore wrestling isn't the fad anymore, but I think a variation of it could still be good for a comedy gimmick. Just have a guy (or girl) come out to the ring wearing a bunch of over the top gear and listen to the pop when the babyface pulls off the gear as the heel freaks out.

[shawn michaels]

Wow. Just... wow. No one has said you're not allowed to dislike John Cena. But your other unsupported opinions were disagreed with by people that presented facts, and again, you asked for people to prove you wrong and generally misunderstood what the difference between fact and opinion was while opining that you're just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. Again, everyone else is just as entitled to disagree with you when you say things that aren't supported by "facts" or "reason."

 

A 15 pound difference is not a fact of anything...to me. If it is to you, you're allowed to feel that way, as i'm allowed to feel otherwise. I never said otherwise. Or never intended too. As i pointed out, the language thing sometimes stopped me from getting some things further explained. But enough with the whole thing. Let's agree that we disagree. No one can prove that A is better then B as a scientifical fact. So...i dislike him, you don't. The guy draws, i never said he didn't, or never intended too, that doesn't mean a lot of things, like him beeing the best or me having to accept anything.

 

Getting back on topic: I heard (unofficial sources) that wwe is pulling the plug on the PG era. Is this true? Did anyone hear or read something about it? As i said, no official sources on this, so that's why i'm asking.

[supershot]

The 15 pound weight difference doesn't make Cena better. It proves that what you said (Cena is a big guy, and Michael's a small guy) completely untrue.

 

Edit: Sorry I was catching up and posted this way to late. I agree, this should end lol.

[lazorbeak]

The 15 pound weight difference doesn't make Cena better. It proves that what you said (Cena is a big guy, and Michael's a small guy) completely untrue.

 

Edit: Sorry I was catching up and posted this way to late. I agree, this should end lol.

 

Yuuuuuup. Also I mean that's the reason I used the fact. Saying that a weight difference is not a fact is just a red flag that something has gotten terribly, terribly lost in translation.

 

And I'm sorry, but no, if you think weights are not facts, something's wrong. This is not a "everyone is allowed to feel what they want" situation. A weight difference is a fact. It's pretty much the definition of a fact.

[moon_lit_tears]

Put the claws away fellows. Cena is awesome, nuff said because I'm always right.

[shawn michaels]

Yuuuuuup. Also I mean that's the reason I used the fact. Saying that a weight difference is not a fact is just a red flag that something has gotten terribly, terribly lost in translation.

 

And I'm sorry, but no, if you think weights are not facts, something's wrong. This is not a "everyone is allowed to feel what they want" situation. A weight difference is a fact. It's pretty much the definition of a fact.

 

I meant it doesn't prove someone's better than someone. But if you meant it as a shot at the "big guys pushed" statement, i can definetely say that guys like Batista and Lashley aren't exactly small and they were moon pushed. Khali was a world champ and had a high profile feud with taker. Andre the giant, big show, hulk hogan, Diesel...and the list continues. Yes, Vince likes to push the big guys. That's a fact you can keep, just as the facts i expressed on the other page, countering the facts you said i din't answered too.

But yes, things were lost on the translation. Wich is probably why some of you missunderstood some of my statements. One of them was my michael bay-transformers analogy's answer. I would had given a greart answer to that in my native language. Nevermind. It was still a good debate, "and now it's yours...", as the guy on the Shwarzzenegger film said. Except in this case it would be: And now it's over. And now i'm really going to sleep.

[nimo34]

"The Tale of the Debater with Insomnia"

 

Reports are coming out that CM Punk's name-dropping wasn't exactly just for giggles and for the sake of the promo. There are reports that CM Punk is using his contract negotiating as a way of getting Colt Cabana back into the WWE. Also, there are reports that Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar are talking with the WWE about a business deal(?).

 

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2011/0629/541264/paul-heyman/

[lazorbeak]

I meant it doesn't prove someone's better than someone. But if you meant it as a shot at the "big guys pushed" statement, i can definetely say that guys like Batista and Lashley aren't exactly small and they were moon pushed. Khali was a world champ and had a high profile feud with taker. Andre the giant, big show, hulk hogan, Diesel...and the list continues. Yes, Vince likes to push the big guys. Here's a fact for you. As the facts i expressed on the other page, countering the other facts you said i din't answered too.

But yes, things were lost on the translation. Wich is probably why some of you missunderstood some of my statements. One of them was my michael bay-transformers analogy's answer. I would had given a greart answer to that in my native language. Nevermind. It was still a good debate, "and now it's yours...", as the guy on the Shwarzzenegger film said. Except in this case it would be: And now it's over. And now i'm really going to sleep.

 

Okay, first off, my point was that to say others didn't use facts was completely false, and that you persisted in saying a weight difference is not a fact showed a major lack of understanding as to what I was even saying. Again, weight is not something you can say is not a fact: it's the definition of a fact. It's like saying a birthday's not a fact.

 

And while yes, it's a fact that those guys you mention were big and were pushed, it's also completely irrelevant to any point that anyone has made.

 

Like I said, everyone has a right to their opinion, even if they use that right to explain why another person's opinion is not supported by facts.

[shawn michaels]

Okay, first off, my point was that to say others didn't use facts was completely false, and that you persisted in saying a weight difference is not a fact showed a major lack of understanding as to what I was even saying. Again, weight is not something you can say is not a fact: it's the definition of a fact. It's like saying a birthday's not a fact.

 

And while yes, it's a fact that those guys you mention were big and were pushed, it's also completely irrelevant to any point that anyone has made.

 

Like I said, everyone has a right to their opinion, even if they use that right to explain why another person's opinion is not supported by facts.

 

I0m sorry. I'm confused... How can it not be relevant to the discussion?? Weren't you (or someone) saying that my statement that the big guys were the ones beeing pushed was not bakced up? So i just backed it uo with examples. How can it not be relevant? Then there were the prizes...i answered to that on a previous page. I also answered to the Cebna beeing a big draw thing. And i even gave two names of workers that could do, in my opinion, the same or better in different circunstances as you requested.

 

Ps: I never meant to say that weight was not a fact! I alredy explained that! Of course it is a fact, as a birthday is. What i meant was aimed at weight not beeing a fact to prove certain things. But that doesn't matter, as it was an answer to something i missunderstood, so it really doesn't belong to the discussion. But i never meant to say it ain't a fact per say.