The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[bigtplaystew]

Piece of advice:

 

When you say, "So you are saying (insert random thought here)?" and the person in question never actually said any of it... you are putting words in their mouth. It's a classic arguing tactic when you have no actual way of discussing what they actually DID say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You went piece by piece, took everything I said, and morphed your own points around it making me seem like I made points I never said nor implied. I refuse to argue in that light. So I'm going to make a quick little point here.

 

 

 

Pro wrestling is a very secretive buisness. Things are very political and very little gets out that guys like Vince McMahon don't want out there. Very little can actually be confirmed (even though wrestling sites love to throw the word "confirmed" around) as true or untrue. So I'll use a Dave Meltzer MMA story simply as an example:

 

About a year ago, Brock Lesnar lost to Cain Velasquez rather brutally. Meltzer reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA and had doubts about wether he could hang with good MMA strikers in the UFC. I'm paraphrasing. Even though Dana White loled at the craziness of that story, it was discussed on ESPN and all over the internet as if it was actually jornalism so I'm sure you all remember it.

 

A few weeks later Lesnar was announced as a TUF coach and agreed to fight Junior Dos Santos - one of MMA's most feared strikers.

 

Point is: he lied.

 

This might seme off topic but it's not. Meltzer is primarily a pro wrestling journalist and he writes for a very secretive industry. MMA isn't as secretive and is much more transparent and he was exposed as someone who flat out makes up stories. This is why YOU CANT BELIEVE DIRT SHEETS.

[Hive]

Piece of advice:

 

When you say, "So you are saying (insert random thought here)?" and the person in question never actually said any of it... you are putting words in their mouth. It's a classic arguing tactic when you have no actual way of discussing what they actually DID say.

 

Whatever.

[Jaysin]

This is just as bad as the Cena debacle a few weeks ago

[Hive]

You went piece by piece, took everything I said, and morphed your own points around it making me seem like I made points I never said nor implied. I refuse to argue in that light. So I'm going to make a quick little point here.

 

What did I morph? Did you not jump in and claimed that all stories discussed about HBK are nothing but "fantasy"? That was a pretty arrogant claim which you really have no basis for saying. How can you be so sure that HBK did not do these things? I never said I was 100 % sure he did, I clearly stated that I had *heard* that he *reportedly* did those things. I cannot be sure that it's true, but you can't be sure that it's fantasy either. You accuse me of presenting the stories as sure facts while you at the same time feel capable of dismissing them as sure fantasy. How can you be in a position to do so?

 

Pro wrestling is a very secretive buisness. Things are very political and very little gets out that guys like Vince McMahon don't want out there. Very little can actually be confirmed (even though wrestling sites love to throw the word "confirmed" around) as true or untrue. So I'll use a Dave Meltzer MMA story simply as an example:

 

I never claimed that all stories we hear are true. But I have heard enough HBK stories to believe that there are at least some merit in them and that he probably is a jerk. You can choose to believe that he's the second coming of christ instead if you like (in fact, judging from the way people defend him around here, it seems that some people do).

 

This is why YOU CANT BELIEVE DIRT SHEETS.

 

I strongly disagree. Such a story is proof that you cannot believe *everything* they say, but at the same time it does not mean you cannot believe *anything* they say.

 

Byt that logic, you cannot EVER believe in newspapers, tv, politicians, etc. They all report false information, either by accident or on purpose, from time to time.

[bigtplaystew]

If you at any point can quote me saying "all wrestlign stories are lies" than I'd love to see it.

 

I really shouldn't have to reitterate this since we can all read.

 

I said I think it's a little silly to talk about backstage things as if you know FOR A FACT exactly how it went. In any situation, whether it's wrestling, among friends, work politics, whatever... when you go by hearsay and repeat it as truth it generally isn't a good thing to do.

 

 

Thank you.

[Guest codey]

You've heard stories about him being a jerk well over a decade ago. A young guy with an ego that was drugged out. Fast forward to his return, and the only stories you hear about him backstage are about him being a born again christian, helping young talent, and one instance out of a decade of him not wanting to lose to barely mobile 60 year old man. Well, he did end up losing, and he actually made the match entertaining to me (others have stated the same in this topic).

 

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.

 

He might be. I don't know. You don't know. Unless you know him personally, you don't know this. He said she said isn't a way to gather any sort of information. Even if you do, the only sort of negative he said she said we got the past decade was this whole thing. The rest has been positive. Hell, just a few days ago an article written by former ECW head writer was posted in the topic about Michaels saved the career of CM Punk. It's still he said she said, but, like I said, we get a lot more positive crap coming from him.

[DaMegaFish]

I have to say, a couple weeks ago I finally broke down and watched Zack Ryders show...now I'm officially a part of the Zack Pack. How I didn't jump on this band wagon sooner is beyond me. Something about Ryder just works right now for me...also, his match with Cole this week on RAW was one of my favorite segments from the show. Those two are probably two of the most entertaining guys in the WWE for me right now. Yes, I am a Michael Cole mark. I've already discussed this though.

[Guest codey]

He's the main reason I try to watch Superstars every week. Well, him and Tyson Kidd.

[Fantabulous]

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.

 

When you miss the point you sure like to do it in grand fashion.

 

Punk's promo was done as part of an ongoing storyline that he was involved in and was going somewhere. Shawn's was done because he couldn't deal with the fact he had to do a job he didn't want to do and because the guy he had to lose to was gone and not coming back, he felt it was safe to act like a spoiled brat on live TV.

[Hive]

If you at any point can quote me saying "all wrestlign stories are lies" than I'd love to see it.

 

This:

 

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

 

You say that the stuff we discuss from behind the scenes is fantasy, as if it were a universal fact.

 

I said I think it's a little silly to talk about backstage things as if you know FOR A FACT exactly how it went. In any situation, whether it's wrestling, among friends, work politics, whatever... when you go by hearsay and repeat it as truth it generally isn't a good thing to do.

 

When did I repeat it as being the universal truth? And you talk about ME mistreating YOUR words...

 

I'm still looking for reasonable arguments why what Undertaker said should *not* be trusted, btw.

[bigtplaystew]

He's the main reason I try to watch Superstars every week. Well, him and Tyson Kidd.

 

I like Zack Ryder alot and have since ECW. I always got a kick out of him and I really respect that the second ECW got taken off he hit the net like a champ. I mean he was doing great things on twitter "before it was cool" and when ECW was still on... but man has he taken that to the next step lately. His in-ring work is o.k.... but the guy is an amazing TV character to me. I think they are going to be using him more.

 

I was at smackdown this week and I really liked the Tyson Kidd / Yoshi Tatsu match from NXT. The stupid leg on a necklace thing made me laugh pretty hard (in a good way) but the match itself was pretty solid.

 

I wish WWe had some kind of thing similar to an "X" division where guys like that could really show their stuff longform. Maybe when they get the network going we'll see soemthing like this. I feel like Yoshi Tatsu / Kidd could be an awesome 30 minute match but there's understandably no way that'll ever happen the way current WWE programming is.

[Hive]

You've heard stories about him being a jerk well over a decade ago. A young guy with an ego that was drugged out. Fast forward to his return, and the only stories you hear about him backstage are about him being a born again christian, helping young talent, and one instance out of a decade of him not wanting to lose to barely mobile 60 year old man. Well, he did end up losing, and he actually made the match entertaining to me (others have stated the same in this topic).

 

Are you guys even reading what I'm posting? Just yesterday, I heard Triple H saying that HBK has indeed improved, but still from time to time show off his old self. This from one of HBK's closest friends. I can find the link, if anyone is interested. It's on the tube. But oh wait, I forgot that noone in the wrestling business saying anything at all can be trusted... my bad...

 

And I saw with my own eyes what he did in the match against Hogan and heard others talk about a promo he did afterwards. That's not "backstage stuff from the 90's". Some people think what he did was justified, but he still did it. If he had really grown into a better man, why not take this chance to show Hogan - and the world - that he was a bigger man than Hogan?

 

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.

 

Yeah but in spite of shooting on guys like Cena, he didn't mess up their match. And Punk was, as already mentioned by Fantabulous, doing this as part of an ongoing storyline. And unless I recall incorrectly, he only took shots at people involved with WWE. Not people who had already left the company.

 

He might be. I don't know. You don't know. Unless you know him personally, you don't know this. He said she said isn't a way to gather any sort of information.

 

Oh come on...! We get this from his friends and respected locker room leaders, how can you just dimiss it all?

 

Even if you do, the only sort of negative he said she said we got the past decade was this whole thing. The rest has been positive. Hell, just a few days ago an article written by former ECW head writer was posted in the topic about Michaels saved the career of CM Punk. It's still he said she said, but, like I said, we get a lot more positive crap coming from him.

 

Ooooh. So *this* piece of information we can suddenly trust, because that one is *positive* when talking about HBK. This is unreal.

[bigtplaystew]

This:

 

 

 

You say that the stuff we discuss from behind the scenes is fantasy, as if it were a universal fact.

 

 

 

When did I repeat it as being the universal truth? And you talk about ME mistreating YOUR words...

 

I'm still looking for reasonable arguments why what Undertaker said should *not* be trusted, btw.

 

I never said it's all lies though like you previously claimed. See how your argument morphs and changes when you break things down and take them out of context?

 

I said it's fantasy talk becuse it is. You take hearsay aand represent it as fact... almost as if it's a fantasy. I asked you to quote me saying all wrestlign sstories are lies... so keep trying.

 

I also never said Undertaker lied. I said he was telling his version which makes it a half-truth. Which it probably is.

 

Hate to make an MMA point again but if anyone wants to look at the undertaker/Lesnar video after lesnar lost the Cain fight then you'll see he is also a publicity whore who likes to get his name in the media when he gets the rare opportunity to do so. That doesn't make him a liar or a bad person. That makes him a person in the pro wrestling buisiness. Excuse me if I dont trust him as a legitimate journalist trying to get true information to the people. considering he buries people when he's done pinning them and all... like are you for real dude?

[Fantabulous]

About a year ago, Brock Lesnar lost to Cain Velasquez rather brutally. Meltzer reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA and had doubts about wether he could hang with good MMA strikers in the UFC. I'm paraphrasing. Even though Dana White loled at the craziness of that story, it was discussed on ESPN and all over the internet as if it was actually jornalism so I'm sure you all remember it.

 

A few weeks later Lesnar was announced as a TUF coach and agreed to fight Junior Dos Santos - one of MMA's most feared strikers.

 

Point is: he lied.

 

Actually, the point is that Meltzer never actually reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA. What he did say was that Lesnar had a definitive idea of where is career was going, including post-MMA, and the copy and paste sites turned that into "Meltzer said Lesnar is going to quit MMA."

[Hive]

I said it's fantasy talk becuse it is. You take hearsay aand represent it as fact... almost as if it's a fantasy. I asked you to quote me saying all wrestlign sstories are lies... so keep trying.

 

No. By calling it "fantasy", you are implying that it's all just stuff we are imagining in our heads. It's quite frankly pretty provocative.

 

It's not fantasy, it's based on comments made by HBK's peers. They may not all be true, I don't know - but when several people close to HBK allude to the same things, I find it perfectly fair to discuss.

 

And I ask you: when did I ever present it as a sure fact?

 

Hate to make an MMA point again but if anyone wants to look at the undertaker/Lesnar video after lesnar lost the Cain fight then you'll see he is also a publicity whore who likes to get his name in the media when he gets the rare opportunity to do so. That doesn't make him a liar or a bad person. That makes him a person in the pro wrestling buisiness. Excuse me if I dont trust him as a legitimate journalist trying to get true information to the people. considering he buries people when he's done pinning them and all... like are you for real dude?

 

When have Undertaker directly buried anyone? Have you even seen the interview in question? He doesn't bury HBK and actually speaks very little of it.

 

I can't help but wonder how many people would have argued against me had it been Hogan or Vince Russo I spoke ill of...

[bigtplaystew]

Remember what we talked about with putting words in peoples mouths??

[Fantabulous]

Also, the Undertake/Lesnar thing was an angle.

[bigtplaystew]

No. By calling it "fantasy", you are implying that it's all just stuff we are imagining in our heads. It's quite frankly pretty provocative.

 

It's not fantasy, it's based on comments made by HBK's peers. They may not all be true, I don't know - but when several people close to HBK allude to the same things, I find it perfectly fair to discuss.

 

And I ask you: when did I ever present it as a sure fact?

 

 

 

When have Undertaker directly buried anyone? Have you even seen the interview in question? He doesn't bury HBK and actually speaks very little of it.

 

I can't help but wonder how many people would have argued against me had it been Hogan or Vince Russo I spoke ill of...

 

 

When I said bury I meant that he physically takes a shovel and puts his opponent in a a grave.

[Hive]

Remember what we talked about with putting words in peoples mouths??

 

When did I do that in my last post exactly?

 

And again... you claim that I presented those rumors of HBK as facts. So I ask you for the third time without response: show me when. Because I'm sure you're not one to put words in other people's mouths yourself, are you?

 

When I said bury I meant that he physically takes a shovel and puts his opponent in a a grave.

 

Fair enough then, I misunderstood.

[Fantabulous]

Because I'm sure you're not one to put words in other people's mouths yourself, are you?

Well, he did claim Meltzer told a lie that he never actually told, so he does.

 

Oh, you were being sarcastic. Sorry.

[bigtplaystew]

Meltzer took something that wasnt true... and presented it as a news story. I'm sorry if that's not a lie.

 

And Hive, remember when I cleared up soemthing I said. then you said, "No." LITERALLY. Then you went on to talk about what I really meant lol. That's called putting words in someone's mouth.

[Hive]

And Hive, remember when I cleared up soemthing I said. then you said, "No." LITERALLY. Then you went on to talk about what I really meant lol. That's called putting words in someone's mouth.

 

I ask you for the fourth time now to show you are better than what you accuse me of being, and present a post in which I present stories of HBK as 100 % facts - like you claim I did.

[juggaloninjalee]

Why are we discussing HBK and Hogan? Last I checked they weren't even relevant right now.

[bigtplaystew]

Why are we discussing HBK and Hogan? Last I checked they weren't even relevant right now.

 

Agreed. This has devolved into a pointless board war with gross misrepresentation and manipulation of words. It's annoying to read.

 

 

 

 

I'd really like to get back to the Zack Ryder conversation...

 

WWWYKI

[DaMegaFish]

I'd really like to get back to the Zack Ryder conversation...

 

WWWYKI

 

Rumor has it he likes to sing with the radio.