The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[OldStingberg]

If THAT'S what you took out of what I had to say, then I don't know how to explain this any more clearly, but I'll try:

 

ITS WWE! THEY LIE! WHEN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS YOU SOUND SILLY TO ME!

 

Oh, I get what you're saying. I just find it ridiculous.

[Fantabulous]

Until WWE outright say that Rock is wrestling, the safest assumption is that any hints and inference by others of it taking place are strictly to motivate sales and have no meaning behind them. That said, until WWE do say he is wrestling it IS misleading for others to hint and suggest Rock is wrestling on a specific date, especially when they use language that any reasonable person could interpret to mean he is wrestling, when there hasn't been any storyline suggestion yet that it's happening.

 

I don't think Rock should wrestle until Wrestlemania so that it really is his first match in seven years. It adds something special to the occasion that I see no point in taking away for a match that would probably mean nothing unless Rock is sticking around as an active performer/part-time wrestler, which would be really insane at this point.

[Erock]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

 

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

 

Edge could've headlined a show after TLC 1 and it would be believable, the problem was there was no opening in the earlier Attitude Era. Keep in mind that he was injured during the initial JBL push, as well as being face.

[bigtplaystew]

Yep. WWE misleads people. You guys are aware undertaker really doesn't have magical powers right?

[bookerman]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

 

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

 

The Edge that became and stayed a ME player was not the same Edge who debuted, joined the Brood/Ministry, and did poses for those with cameras. His character was different. I also seem to recall that they had wanted to push him faster, but he kept getting hurt...that being part of the reason it took so long for him to reach the top. HOWEVER, I will add that he had established such a history in the WWE and had legitimized himself with his body of work that he didn't slide too far from the top when he didn't have the title. That's in contrast to guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Miz, etc who reached the top of the mountain and then went sliding right back down.

 

Same for JBL. It was John Hawk Bradshaw or Blackjack Bradshaw or APA Bradshaw that was pushed to the top. It was an updated Million Dollar Man gimmick complete with a new entrance, new wrestling attire, new mannerisms, a fancy car, and a stable (Orlando Jordan, the Bashams).

 

Contrast these to Morrison (roughly the same character), Kofi, Swagger, Ziggler who aren't very different from how they originally debuted (don't start with Ziggler was in the Spirit Squad cause I'm pretty sure the WWE hasn't brought that up). Same for Rhodes and Dibiase (although Rhodes is moving towards a different character now). Drew Mcintyre has held the IC title and the tag straps and has trouble getting on TV.

 

Point is, WWE only builds someone as credible when they need a contender. R-Truth is a good example in recent memory. A lot of the booking/writing is centered on the 1 or 2 main stories and everything else and eveyone else is left to fend for themselves.

[Linsolv]

Yep. WWE misleads people. You guys are aware undertaker really doesn't have magical powers right?

 

It's the same argument as I hear a lot about corporations. Some people say that corporations need to be better, because they're lying, stealing, heartless automatons run by sociopaths.

 

Other people say that corporations have always been thus and you should have learned your lesson.

 

It's an endless debate. Just agree to disagree, you'll get the pettiness over with faster.

[lazorbeak]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

 

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

 

First, you might want to brush up on how long a "decade" is. Second, if you think Edge's career didn't have momentum, you are not understanding what I'm talking about at all. Edge was built as the superstar in waiting throughout E&C's run, culminating in winning King of the Ring and becoming a midcard babyface. Then he teamed with several main eventers including Hulk Hogan and feuded with top level heels like Kurt Angle, then he was injured for a major period of time and changed his style, turned heel, feuded with Matt Hardy in a storyline that saw him become a top heel, then won his first world title in 2006. Throughout the process, his character is moving forward, he's doing stuff he hasn't done fifteen times before, and there's a regular build. He also engaged in several memorable feuds that weren't just "Edge defends title against athletic young guy." Edge's career is one where he was constantly doing new stuff until he was a main eventer. By the time he won the title, he had basically done everything except win a top title.

 

John Morrison is young, but let's compare. Like Edge, he was on a successful heel tag team and won the tag titles a few times. Then he moved to Raw with Melina and won the IC title. So far, so good. Then, as part of a feud with Jeff Hardy, MNM reunites and the tag teams feud, putting on a great multi-team ladder match at Armageddon. But after the Hardyz go over, Melina becomes the focus of the stable, and Mercury is released due to his personal problems. Morrison is sent to ECW after a nonsensical pairing with Kenny Dykstra. He wins the ECW title as he gets plugged into someone else's storyline, but then drops the belt to CM Punk. At this point he and Miz stumble into a tag team and it ends up taking off, launching both men's careers forward, although, in Morrison's case, it's basically getting him back to where he was in 2005, although he does improve his skills from where he was in MNM. The two break up as Miz goes to Raw (where he is put in a short program with Cena, within months: two years later he is beating Cena at Wrestlemania), and Morrison goes to Smackdown to turn face in 2009. At this point he's been on the roster for over 4 years: for reference, after four years in WWE Edge was winning feuds with Kurt Angle as a babyface on Smackdown. But while Morrison isn't far behind that point, he's been stuck at exactly that same point for two years. While Edge was consistently involved in important feuds that saw him advance up the card, Morrison disappears from PPV inexplicably. He's had a couple of feuds that were actual build-ups to his matches, with Sheamus at the end of last year and with R-Truth and the Miz this year, but he seems to periodically take extended breaks from doing anything important. And the problem is, this is symptomatic of a lot of WWE's roster right now. There isn't a sense of character progression or build; Dolph Ziggler 2011 is exactly the same as the Dolph Ziggler that couldn't beat Rey Mysterio two years ago. Jack Swagger jobbing to Cena on Raw in 2011 is exactly the same character and status he was at in 2009 jobbing to John Cena on Raw.

 

I mean before Edge won his first title, he had beaten Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Kane, Kurt Angle, and others in pay per view matches in storylines that weren't focused on around "#1 contender wants belt." He had been a gothic babyface, a ****y heel, a "wholesome" babyface, and a completely different type of heel. Compare that to Kofi Kingston who in four years has won 5 midcard titles, and was in one storyline where it looked like his character would evolve and he would move up the card, but was then promptly put into a variation of the same happy-go-lucky babyface persona for another two years.

 

My point was you can't flip a switch, and if you think Edge being champion wasn't built up to, you just weren't paying attention.

[TakerNGN74]

Not to mention that earlier in Edge's career he was in the Brood a stable which was set on building up Edge. Gangrel The Broods leader even admited in an interview that the whole purpose behind the brood stable was to help elevate Edge and nothing else.

[Basmat01]

Well Edge injured his neck in early 2003 and we didnt see him again until a year later? Edge had a ton of momentum going his way in 2002/2003. He was always going to get a push it just happend a year and abit later than when it should have.

[djthefunkchris]

Going to post this, because I think some people might think like me, and I think alot of people might have similar thoughts, even if perhaps swayed to the left or right farther. This isn't a reply post to any particular person, but just a general thought of things.

 

WWE has made superstars, taken advantage of other star power, and have had incredible success in light of looking as if they are going to fall on their face. Most people think competition (and this extends to most wrestler's ever interviewed, even long term WWE roster members) that competition ups their game.

 

I think everyone realises there's not going to be a ton of Hogan/Rock/Austin/Flair/Undertaker/Cena's running around. I think that's a given, even if your sick of some or all of them. There will be new stars, such as Punk, Orton, etc. But it takes an extra Uumph to get to the statis if Cena/Rock/Hogan/Austin level.

 

One of the things that bugs everyone, at least in my opinion, is the time they give to newer roster members. No time means they don't even have a chance to get over, even if they could.... However, the little time they do get, if they could just overwhelm them once, I'm sure they would be considered for the future, but that's besides the overall point. One of the things I feel, is that they give their absolute best effort towards the one's they think "have it" and will continue to do so on their major two shows, to keep them there.... to keep them relevant, and to keep them over. Leave's less time for the newer or lower cards, which even with two hours, sucks.

 

It seems like they try with shows like Superstars, or Next, to get lesser known characters over. I don't know if it's the Network or just WWE that gets bassically frustrated with ratings, or the show, or whatever... and changes it or cancells it. These shows would make a heck of a difference if they could become mainstay TV shows, and not fly by nights. As I said, I don't know if they have controll over that or not, considering they get compatible ratings to TNA, which is a mainstay show, perhaps with their own network, we will see what they want to do moreso.

 

What I would like to see, is a show that highlights a specific title(s), that aren't specifically on Raw or Smackdown... An example would be Tag Titles. Right now, unless it's a made character, it "feels" like anyone involved in these title's have been demoted. I would venture to say in TEW terms, these titles are on par with Lower card titles, not even mid-level. The US and Intercontinental titles used to get more attention, but lately it doesn't seem like it's used for anything except a background for some wrestlers "He's a five time US champion, by God!"

 

A show that highlighted the lower level title's, could potentially make stars out of more people, if it would stick around. I loved WWEECW for example, it was my favorite show. IT actually highlighted the Tag title's as well as ECW title's (for an example). With Miz and Morrison being on that show, and winning the title's, it made other tag teams a bit more relevant.

 

I'm not just talking about tag teams though... I feel that they could bring back cruiserweights as well. Raw and Smackdown could highlight the two big title's, as well as US/Intercontinental titles... A new show could highlight the Tag Teams/Women's and bringing back a cruiserweight type title. Highlighting hard on the Tag Teams, and making them credible (keeping them together longer).

 

Just my thoughts here... IF they could keep a show up that is.

[bookerman]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

 

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

[bigtplaystew]

No Zack tonight? You serious, bro?

[OldStingberg]

I'm loving this whole Supershow thing. I mean, Jerry Lawler, Bret Hart, Ricardo Rodriguez, and Vickie Guererro wrestling all on the same night? Truly that is only made possible by the Supershow.

 

Anyway, the first 110 minutes of the show was very meh. They re-did the Lawler thing for some reason, but with Sheamus this time (Supershow!). They continued the abrupt ADR turnaround from a confident badass dude that defends his belt and hurts guys every show to a weasely little guy that runs away from fights. This might be the first time a simple and short visa mix-up has dictated a main eventer's character. They did the Dolph and Swagger thing a couple times, because we were in danger of forgetting that they had issues. I assume they're turning Ziggler face at some point, so it'd be cool if some of this TV time was spent setting that up. They did the Smackdown main event again three days later, albeit with a "better" finish at least.

 

The final face-off, though, was at least interesting. It felt like a really awesome promo for a different storyline. They spent 10 minutes going back-and-forth about stuff that wasn't really relevant before Triple H seemed to realize that and said how they were going in circles, it's not about business, it's personal, grrrrr.

 

To be fair, for all the crap I've given the WWE the past month, I am legitimately excited now for a Punk/HHH feud where Triple H is an actual heel and he actually puts Punk over. I'm not confident they'll give me that, but if they do, I'm on board. We'll see what happens at NoC.

[ThatChizzle]

lol has Triple H been hit in the head one too many times or what? Trying to cut a promo tonight he kept repeating himself over and over and over....

 

Since CM Punk is already over with the crowd, why would Triple H need to explain it to him over and over and over.... lol

[djthefunkchris]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

 

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

 

I like your idea, with the "WWE Title" being like the NWA title, sharing between brands. Each brand having their seperate main title, etc. Like the sound of our idea's together.

 

Wonder why they never thought of that?

[bigtplaystew]

I thought RAW was good.

 

I liked Cody getting the win over Randy. I love Cody right now. I like those twisted personality type heels. He's changing frequently and it looks like the mask might be slowly comming off. Top heel waiting to happen if you ask me. I'd watch a long Randy/Cody program more intently than I've been watching Henry/Randy.

 

The Miz/Kofi match was pretty good too. Fast-paced and back-and-fourth.

 

It was fun watching Shaemus beat the crap out of McGillicuty and Otunga.

 

The Cena & Bret versus Del Rio/Rodriguez match was kinda goofy. I wasn't expecting much but I was hoping Del Rio would at least try some behind the back attack type stuff and leave Cena down on the mat as he walked off. In agreement with OldStingBerg, I was definately more into Del Rio / Cena when ADR was beating the crap out of his opponents and they were making it out to be more like "Can John Cena beat this guy?" rather than "Will ADR actually stand up to face Cena at the PPV?" But I guess they wanted to give Bret the big finish and let the fans cheer him. Which I'm fine with, he more than deserves it.

 

All in all, good show. I got a little uncomfortable towards the end with the HHH/Punk "shoot". I wasn't feeling this one but considering how closely I was watching it I can't complain. It held my interest until the show was over.

 

What are some predictions for Sunday? Will they book HHH over the red-hot-but-cooling CM Punk? It's hard to see HHH losing but I don't see how him beating Punk helps anything move along unless it's a screwjob type storyline that they are heading after. I am very interested in these past few PPVs ever since Money in the Bank. They are actually booking a storyline that I don't see comming from miles away and I am really digging it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Went to Raw last night, was mostly decent, nothing too spectacular apart from the final promo. Good to see Rhodes win, maybe I'll get behind him somehow. Amusing how H used Cena of all people as an example. Don't even recall him being vocal all that much against Cena during his rise.

 

Yeah, Ryder won against McIntyre before the show and the post-show match featured Bret locking Miz in the sharpshooter.

[Prophet]

There's an interview from ... I think it was one of Cena's DVDs, where HHH said that Cena asked him what he thought of his (Cena's) work. And according to HHH, he told Cena he was terrible. It was supposed to show how he'd built himself up through hard work and dedication, I think.

 

I would've expected him to use Daniel Bryan as an example, though, considering the whole "if he's the best in the business, why doesn't he work for the `E" comment that Hunter had made on some radio show.

[ThatChizzle]

It probably won't happen, but for a way to surprise fans. Since Triple H has put up his COO job on the line, wouldn't it be good for Shane McMahon to end the match with a screwjob for Triple H? If Triple H loses, it would have to be either Steph or Shane to become the next COO. It would be a lil pointless if Triple H lost it, and his wife Steph took over, and I don't really think Linda would take over, that would be pointless as well.

Shane hasen't been even working for the WWE for a while now, and CM Punks "shoot" when he said WWE would be better with Vince Dead, but it wouldn't help because his Idiot Daughter and His Doofus Son-in-law would take over.

So Shane McMahon and CM Punk screw Triple H, and the crowd would be surprised to even see Shane at all. Then Shane McMahon could take over his Fathers company because he was going to be kinda screwed anyway. I mean that Shane is older than Steph, and he must have been thinking for years there that he would be the Heir Apparent when Vince stepped down.

It probably won't happen, but that would be a great swerve for Night of Champions.

[Nathers7]

Shane resigned in January 2010 stating that he's gave the majority of his life to WWE and wanted to do something else. He is currently heavily involved in the company International Sports Management, I would say there's little chance of him being involved in this storyline. I would mark though lol, he's definitely the most likeable McMahon.

[bigtplaystew]

Good storyline idea though. I'd mark out if I saw Shane, as nerdy as that sounds haha.

 

But yea I severely doubt Shane shows up. I'm pretty sure he's trying to establish himself as a legit buisnessman and based on what i've heard/read he wants nothing to do with WWE anymore.

 

 

 

Glad to see some more Cody love. I think he's had one of the better years at that mid-to-upper card level. I like what he's done with his character. I'm definately into the "grotesque" Cody Rhodes as much as I was into the Dashing one.

 

If they can work Drew Macintyre back into some level of significance I'll be a very happy mark.

[ZMAN]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

 

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

 

I've always wanted them to do something like this. Instead of the "Raw" and "SD" titles though, I would just stick with United States (SD) and Intercontinental (RAW). The two titles have incredible lineage(minus like, Chyna and ****), and since there's no question that they are the #2 titles (since there would only be one WWE WHC), then it shouldn't be an issue that they aren't "prestigious enough." It might be weird seeing Randy Orton as US champion at first, but it would all level out after a few months once so many big names have competed for said title.

 

Only thing is, it's kind of a weak idea altogether if there's no brand split in place. That would lead to my new Raw 10/SD 10 brand split idea, but I don't feel like playing booker right now.

[bookerman]

Replace Shane with Johnny Ace and I think you might be closer to actual events. Ace is the puppet for Vince who causes HHH to lose and Ace get the COO job

[bookerman]

I've always wanted them to do something like this. Instead of the "Raw" and "SD" titles though, I would just stick with United States (SD) and Intercontinental (RAW). The two titles have incredible lineage(minus like, Chyna and ****), and since there's no question that they are the #2 titles (since there would only be one WWE WHC), then it shouldn't be an issue that they aren't "prestigious enough." It might be weird seeing Randy Orton as US champion at first, but it would all level out after a few months once so many big names have competed for said title.

 

Only thing is, it's kind of a weak idea altogether if there's no brand split in place. That would lead to my new Raw 10/SD 10 brand split idea, but I don't feel like playing booker right now.

 

Agreed. Without the brand split, it's kinda meaningless..unless only wins on your respective show counts towards that title. If you're a RAW superstar, only wins on RAW and PPVs count towards you getting a shot at the RAW title. If they are really wanting to have the brand titles defended more often, they could do it once every two weeks which still allows two weeks to either build the new champ for the PPV or for a rematch (depending on which brand was getting the PPV shot that month).

[Teh_Showtime]

SSlam dvd selling for $16 on Amazon

 

both Title matches might make that worth it imo. Orton/Christian was great