Astil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 That's just it. It DOES affect the television product. Next week, when the people in that arena see Big Show completely dominate anyone and everyone who steps in his path on television, what're they gonna think? "My god, he's unstoppable!" or "Why's he dominating everyone when he can't even win a handicap match with the odds in his favor?" The second. The incorrect one of the two booking wise. Dominates Santino and Ryder on Smackdown. Any heat lost from a dark match (which to a casual fan, which is what WWE markets at, is zero) is now back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I just don't get the thought process, from a character stand point. Why not have the show go off the air, Cena finally show up to make some sort of save (where was Cena anyway? Coward.), Tensai attack him instead, and give the fans Cena vs. Tensai/Big Johnny, or just Cena vs. Tensai. Cena can go over, the kiddies get their hero victorious as they exit the arena happily, and Show loses no credibility as the top heel in the company. Yes. Big Show is the current top heel in WWE. And he can't win a match against John Cena. John Laurenitis and Lord Tensai have BOTH accomplished this. Big Show can not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Even the casual fans know those match's don't mean anything. Haven't for years, and they been doing that for years. You want to be upset about it, that is ALL on YOU. Funny thing, is the only people upset about it is people that should know this already. Unless your upset that the 10 year old in the crowd might think it's real, and it's ruining it for them. Then I can see your point I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 They did specifically state "let's see if Show does this with cena here next week" so they implied he wasn't at the show. This is like complaining about heels losing at a house show. I'll never get it. The only thing that matters in the WWE is what happens on the show. Consider dark matches like ... I dunno ... deleted scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Personally, my interest in watching Cena vs. Big Show dropped from very little to zero due to this dark match. Cena's victory was pretty much given beforehand, but now it's just ridiculous. Really... if WWE swerves a lil bit thats one thing... but I'd say theres a 90% chance Cena wins at the next PPV. Chill out, save the anger for something that deserves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 They did specifically state "let's see if Show does this with cena here next week" so they implied he wasn't at the show. This is like complaining about heels losing at a house show. I'll never get it. The only thing that matters in the WWE is what happens on the show. Consider dark matches like ... I dunno ... deleted scenes. /nod. It's ridiculous. Almost every dark show goes like that... No matter if it's handicapped or tag, or one on one, etc. The funny thing is, no one knows how the match went... We weren't told. I would imagine Big Show probably knocked out someone on his team.... Cena won the match after Show accidentally knocked Tensai out with the WMD. Cena clotheslined Show to the outside of the ring and covered Tensai to win the bout So yeah.... I really don't see it being a squash, or anything... Big Show's not going to punch himself out for the PPV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Black Phenom Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I don't know about you, but I remember various dark matches over the years with Cena winning a handicap match against say, Jericho and Kurt Angle at the time of a certain feud. Triple H as well. Undertaker when he was active. This is nothing to balk at, I'd think. I do understand the issue of Cena not being on the show coming into play, but still.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 They did specifically state "let's see if Show does this with cena here next week" so they implied he wasn't at the show. This is like complaining about heels losing at a house show. I'll never get it. The only thing that matters in the WWE is what happens on the show. Consider dark matches like ... I dunno ... deleted scenes. You can't book someone to be a monster, and have them lose a match where they have a three on one advantage. Dark match or not. It makes the monster look stupid. If you had proof Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, and Scotty Pippen, lost a game of 21, 3 on 1 to some guy with a little above average talent, in some rec center with no cameras rolling, could you still say Jordan was untouchable? Any claim to dominance would forever be nothing more than a joke to anyone who knew about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 You can't book someone to be a monster, and have them lose a match where they have a three on one advantage. Dark match or not. It makes the monster look stupid. If you had proof Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, and Scotty Pippen, lost a game of 21, 3 on 1 to some guy with a little above average talent, in some rec center with no cameras rolling, could you still say Jordan was untouchable? Any claim to dominance would forever be nothing more than a joke to anyone who knew about it. If it happened after a game, and it was just to make people happy (which is what happens in dark match's), then your whole point becomes moot. Everyone will know it was for show, and everyone will find it great that they did that for that person. Just as everyone knows Dark match's are just for show, and don't go in history books. Want to get really upset, go read what happens at House Shows that aren't taped. That will really get you going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 If it happened after a game, and it was just to make people happy (which is what happens in dark match's), then your whole point becomes moot. Everyone will know it was for show, and everyone will find it great that they did that for that person. Just as everyone knows Dark match's are just for show, and don't go in history books. Want to get really upset, go read what happens at House Shows that aren't taped. That will really get you going. I used to love going to house shows, over RAW, back during the Attitude days, because you never knew what was going to happen. They never made the top heel look like a complete f'n joke right in the beginning of his push, that I saw. I get sending the fans home happy. Title changes that happened during house shows/dark matches, have always counted. Why doesn't this? Because it makes your case more valid? The Big Show now has a loss to John Cena, cleanly, in a match where he had 2 men to help him. Both of which have defeated John Cena within the past few months. Let's also not forget that they didn't "Do it to make the fans happy." That's not what Show's plan was. Nor Tensai's. Nor Big Johnny's. When you take away the kayfabe, your point becomes far more substantial, but this is wrestling. It's _supposed_ to be real. Those three men weren't there to job and make the fans happy. They want to end John Cena. The top heel in the company has already become a complete laughing stock who can't get the job done with a bunch of help. Why should I care about his match with Cena at No Way Out? He's already lost. Remember when heels went over during house shows so the fans actually believed the face had no chance come PPV time? I do. It worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stennick Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Clearly you shouldn't care but for the 99 percent of the audience that has no idea this happened they should still care. There are PLENTY of times the face beat up on the heel during a house show. The face always wins the dark show main event its just how it happens. You're very worked up over Big Show's heel turn. He does this once a year becomes a "monster" only to then immediatly lose. I don't care about this storyline because I've been seeing this exact storyline for 8 years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Let's also not forget that they didn't "Do it to make the fans happy." YES! Yes, they did! That is the whole point of the post show dark match. It's something for the people who shelled out money to see an event in person and only for them. That's how it's always been. You are seriously blowing this way out of proportion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>YES! Yes, they did!<p> </p><p> That is the whole point of the post show dark match. </p><p> </p><p> It's something for the people who shelled out money to see an event in person and only for them. </p><p> </p><p> That's how it's always been. </p><p> </p><p> You are seriously blowing this way out of proportion.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Gotta love how the only way anyone's made this even slightly acceptable is to take it completely out of kayfabe. Come back to the viewpoint of the actual story, and try again.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Clearly you shouldn't care but for the 99 percent of the audience that has no idea this happened they should still care. There are PLENTY of times the face beat up on the heel during a house show. The face always wins the dark show main event its just how it happens. You're very worked up over Big Show's heel turn. He does this once a year becomes a "monster" only to then immediatly lose. I don't care about this storyline because I've been seeing this exact storyline for 8 years now.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> They invested a lot of television time into Big Show's turn. In a few minutes, they managed to crap on the entire thing, for the sake of letting some people go home happy. They completely crapped on his character and the story for the sake of some dark time garbage that wasn't even needed or used to advance anything.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn michaels Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Arrows" data-cite="Arrows" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>They invested a lot of television time into Big Show's turn. In a few minutes, they managed to crap on the entire thing, for the sake of letting some people go home happy. They completely crapped on his character and the story for the sake of some dark time garbage that wasn't even needed or used to advance anything.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You are alone on this one. The only thing that counts is what happens on live tv or ppv. Period. THe only things that go into keyfabe on house shows are the ones that the WWE wants to. Like some title changes. The rest never happened. And if you think it did, you're clearly missing the whole point.</p><p> </p><p> Also, to another user that said he was glad Bryan finally beat punk (i think it was milamber, not sure though) i'll ask this: What tv show have you been watching? No offense, i might be wrong, but they recently had 4 tv matches and 1 ppv match and punk won only ONCE. On ppv. Bryan won (tainted or via DQ or something like that) on 2 smackdowns and the RAW match was a no contest. SO it's Bryan: 3 - Punk 1. And i don't understant why they did that. Punk should be heading these results, he's more over. I lkie both of them, but he's more over.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Arrows" data-cite="Arrows" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>. Come back to the viewpoint of the actual story, and try again.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The actual story only happens on TV.</p><p> </p><p> To be fair, I hate when titles change on house shows too (like when Knedrick and London beat ... Cade and Murdoch I think). So difference of opinion there.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Also, to another user that said he was glad Bryan finally beat punk (i think it was milamber, not sure though) i'll ask this: What tv show have you been watching? No offense, i might be wrong, but they recently had 4 tv matches and 1 ppv match and punk won only ONCE. On ppv. Bryan won (tainted or via DQ or something like that) on 2 smackdowns and the RAW match was a no contest. SO it's Bryan: 3 - Punk 1. And i don't understant why they did that. Punk should be heading these results, he's more over. I lkie both of them, but he's more over.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> imho more over guy should lose on TV to make less over guy look like a threat.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You are alone on this one. The only thing that counts is what happens on live tv or ppv. Period. THe only things that go into keyfabe on house shows are the ones that the WWE wants to. Like some title changes. The rest never happened. And if you think it did, you're clearly missing the whole point.<p> </p><p> Also, to another user that said he was glad Bryan finally beat punk (i think it was milamber, not sure though) i'll ask this: What tv show have you been watching? No offense, i might be wrong, but they recently had 4 tv matches and 1 ppv match and punk won only ONCE. On ppv. Bryan won (tainted or via DQ or something like that) on 2 smackdowns and the RAW match was a no contest. SO it's Bryan: 3 - Punk 1. And i don't understant why they did that. Punk should be heading these results, he's more over. I lkie both of them, but he's more over.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Title changes on house shows and dark matches have counted. If they count, everything counts. Period.</p><p> </p><p> You can't have it both ways. When they're in front of a crowd or in front of a television camera, unless it's a crowd gathered around them somewhere away from an arena, they are that character.</p><p> </p><p> It wasn't Paul Wight, Matt Bloom, and John Laurenitis vs. John Cena.</p><p> </p><p> It was The Big Show, Lord Tensai, and John Laurenitis vs. John Cena.</p><p> </p><p> You can't say it wasn't the characters. It was.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn michaels Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Arrows" data-cite="Arrows" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Title changes on house shows and dark matches have counted. If they count, everything counts. Period.<p> </p><p> You can't have it both ways. When they're in front of a crowd or in front of a television camera, unless it's a crowd gathered around them somewhere away from an arena, they are that character.</p><p> </p><p> It wasn't Paul Wight, Matt Bloom, and John Laurenitis vs. John Cena.</p><p> </p><p> It was The Big Show, Lord Tensai, and John Laurenitis vs. John Cena.</p><p> </p><p> You can't say it wasn't the characters. It was.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Dude, it's like a movie. Consider this deleted scenes. This a fabricated show to entertain people, and it's produced by WWE. They create theire story, much like a writer creates the story of a book, movie or tv show. It counts what THEY say that counts, because it's their book, movie, tv show. They built a fictionalized universe, so they are the ones empowered to decide what's cannon and what's not. And until i ear about that match on a WWE TV show or PPV, (which i never will) to me it never existed. </p><p> </p><p> PS: Show turn was really good. I know they've done this before, but this time they nailed it...and decide to waste it by putting him in a loss in his first PPV. Too bad.</p><p> </p><p> Moving on: Loved to see Brodus beeing crushed like he was. The guys has no selling, he should still be in FCW. Or at a training camp where people didn'ctually had to watch him wrestle.</p><p> </p><p> So, they droped the Lord from Tensai, as well as his japanes "Darth Vader" Costume. <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> (Couldn't resist) What do they think? He'll go over because of a wardrobe change a name change? Yeah, that will be the day.</p><p> </p><p> To Astil: I don't disagree, but if they are going to feud, as they are, 3-1 to one makes the over guy look more week than it should. And have in mind that when the feud in over, Punk will remain more over than Bryan (i see The E sending Bryan back to the midcards for a while.) So they should have that on account. It's not a big deal to me, i just pointed it out.</p><p> </p><p> Also: I'm loving the whole AJ-Punk developments. Those two make a good pair.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Please stop this particular argument - it's getting ridiculously heated for such a trivial matter, especially when it's something that has been happening for well over a decade without having any significant impact on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrows Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Dude, it's like a movie. Consider this deleted scenes. This a fabricated show to entertain people, and it's produced by WWE. They create theire story, much like a writer creates the story of a book, movie or tv show. It counts what THEY say that counts, because it's their book, movie, tv show. They built a fictionalized universe, so they are the ones empowered to decide what's cannon and what's not. And until i ear about that match on a WWE TV show or PPV, to me it never existed. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Technically, deleted scenes are scenes that were intended to be a part of the movie to begin with, and as such are part of the canon. They're deleted because they drag the movie out, seem out of place, or what have you.</p><p> </p><p> Alternate endings/other alternate bits, taped later, or at the same time, and released as ALTERNATE stuff, aren't taken into consideration in the actual story. Show me a "deleted scene" from any movie, that doesn't continue the story correctly. If you do, I bet you the director/writer mentions it making the character seem out of his normal somehow, and that's why it was deleted.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 /nod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn michaels Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Please stop this particular argument - it's getting ridiculously heated for such a trivial matter, especially when it's something that has been happening for well over a decade without having any significant impact on anything.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agree.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <p>I know I hate on the dirt sheets and all, so figured I'd post a headline from a story I enjoyed:</p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Tensai_Reportedly_Deemed_A_Flop_By_WWE_Officials_Possibly_Being_Repackaged.html" rel="external nofollow">http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Tensai_Reportedly_Deemed_A_Flop_By_WWE_Officials_Possibly_Being_Repackaged.html</a></p><p> </p><p> LOL... hate to say I told ya so...</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <p>Randy Orton.</p><p> </p><p> Wellness Policy Violation.</p><p> </p><p> 60 Day Suspension.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Bigpapa42" data-cite="Bigpapa42" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Randy Orton.<p> </p><p> Wellness Policy Violation.</p><p> </p><p> 60 Day Suspension.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Llol</p><p> </p><p> <span>http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/VenomousPrime/voices.jpg</span></p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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