The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

The last time I remember the SD title being equal or above the Raw title was in 09 when CM Punk and Jeff hardy had their amazing feud where they main evented over a Cena/Orton feud during the summer.

They had to-they wanted to make Orton/Cena the Rock/Austin of this era, but they utterly failed considering Orton and Cena have no in-ring chemistry.

[lazorbeak]

They had to-they wanted to make Orton/Cena the Rock/Austin of this era, but they utterly failed considering Orton and Cena have no in-ring chemistry.

 

I think it had a lot more to do with a new, big feud taking precedence over Orton/Cena take 30 or whatever that was.

 

But since the brand split quietly ended what, a year ago, for all intents and purposes, the Smackdown title is basically holding the position of the IC title pre-brand split. Which, in turn, means they don't even put the IC and US titles on PPVs.

[Teh_Showtime]

I watched SD online today and I must say Jack Swagger vs Del Rio had a stellar match.

 

Sad they couldnt get time on the big show, but they really put on a match worthy of going out of your way to see.

[Blackman]

Mania was in fact an enjoyable experience. I loved a lot of the matches. It had Taker vs Punk which was awesome, and then Lesnar vs Hunter that had the makings of a classic.

 

Then there was the main event which was preditable, which obviously doesn't exclude it from greatness, but for some reason I had no love for it in any way. This is probably because I don't care for the Cena character. He was decent and spurred my interest until Mania 23(?), where he faced off with Trips and his 'misdirected heat' actually made the match a classic.

 

Now, however, I am so damn bored with his dreadful performance I just didn't care. The moves he executes he executes well after so many matches, but his lack of charisma just hurts the matchup. His behaviour during matches and entrances is just... weird. Maybe I don't get his gimmick: is he the eternal underdog then? Because that doesn't work forever. I hope he retires or at least changes his role. In his earlier 'gimmickless' days, he was even less entertaining, but he did have that succesful rap gimmick that caught on with the fans. Then they retained a part of it and made him into an underdog for, what, almost a decade now? In TEW, this would be penalised to death. Luckily for me, the event still contained good matches.

 

The lesson: WM 'reruns' are never interesting, except for maybe Rock vs Austin. But then again: that was good chemistry.

[ampulator]

I think it had a lot more to do with a new, big feud taking precedence over Orton/Cena take 30 or whatever that was.

 

But since the brand split quietly ended what, a year ago, for all intents and purposes, the Smackdown title is basically holding the position of the IC title pre-brand split. Which, in turn, means they don't even put the IC and US titles on PPVs.

And Orton/Cena take 30 was because they were trying to make Orton/Cena into Rock/Austin. And when they realized it was going to work for the 30th time, no matter what they tried, they would have to admit to reality that the otehr feud was probably going to be better.

 

Mania was in fact an enjoyable experience. I loved a lot of the matches. It had Taker vs Punk which was awesome, and then Lesnar vs Hunter that had the makings of a classic.

 

Then there was the main event which was preditable, which obviously doesn't exclude it from greatness, but for some reason I had no love for it in any way. This is probably because I don't care for the Cena character. He was decent and spurred my interest until Mania 23(?), where he faced off with Trips and his 'misdirected heat' actually made the match a classic.

 

Now, however, I am so damn bored with his dreadful performance I just didn't care. The moves he executes he executes well after so many matches, but his lack of charisma just hurts the matchup. His behaviour during matches and entrances is just... weird. Maybe I don't get his gimmick: is he the eternal underdog then? Because that doesn't work forever. I hope he retires or at least changes his role. In his earlier 'gimmickless' days, he was even less entertaining, but he did have that succesful rap gimmick that caught on with the fans. Then they retained a part of it and made him into an underdog for, what, almost a decade now? In TEW, this would be penalised to death. Luckily for me, the event still contained good matches.

 

The WWE is never going change his disposition, gimmick, or character, until they are forced to do so. Why would they? They don't care about attendance (except for Wrestlemania) as long as it's 10,000, and they don't care much about PPV buyrates as long as they remain profitable, and they as long as TV ratings remain a steady average of in the low 3's to low 4's, they won't do much either. They are making money with merchandise, too. So why change?

 

It's not until everything begins to fall apart will they change. And on one level, I understand that. But we've seen warning sign for years. Sure, because of their longevity and previous success, they have a lot of leeway on small, even medium-sized mistakes and errors. But how many "IOU's" and how many of these kind of things they can do before they can't afford them anymore? Who knows? Maybe it will take another ten years, maybe it will happen in a year. But as long as they don't have to, they won't.

[TakerNGN74]

Then there was the main event which was preditable, which obviously doesn't exclude it from greatness, but for some reason I had no love for it in any way. This is probably because I don't care for the Cena character. He was decent and spurred my interest until Mania 23(?), where he faced off with Trips and his 'misdirected heat' actually made the match a classic.

 

The match you are thinking of took place at Wrestlemania 22 in Chicago Illinois. I was there and the crowd was fantastic during that match.

 

The following year (23) he faced Shawn Michaels and although it wasn't as good as the one hour match that they had on RAW later in the year it was still a great match imo.

 

But I get your point, John Cena is so stale it's rediculous he has been doing the exact same thing for the past ten years and WWE doesn't want to even consider turning him heel because of what it would likely do to merchandise sales. That is a smart decision but it's not a decision that the smarks are going to like.

[Teh_Showtime]

The lesson: WM 'reruns' are never interesting, except for maybe Rock vs Austin. But then again: that was good chemistry.

 

The difference between Rock/Cena and Brock/HHH compared to Rock/Austin is that firstly they had entire years between their matches as opposed to HHH and Lesnar both having 2 matches in 6 months and they were against each other.

 

They were both full time workers and so other feuds allowed them to progress their characters before revisiting the feud with a new dynamic. This year we got the SAME EXACT CENA as last year with no character change whatsoever. On the other hand we have 3 part timers who work maybe 15 dates per year, which doesn't allow much of anything in terms of character development.

 

The cherry on the top was how unbelievably predictable each match was. A large portion of the internet booked Cena winning the Rumble and beating Rock for the title way back in July when they announced Rock was going to be their WWE champion after Royal Rumble. If that wasn't enough they made a stipulation with HHH's career on the line against a guy that already in storyline destroyed the man's father. It was painfully obvious that HHH would not retire given the direction of the storyline and the fact that he will be running the company for the next 20-30 years.

[Self]

I really enjoyed John Cena vs The Rock this year. I was legitimately surprised to read all of the negative (or ambivalent) reviews of the match. However, looking back I can see why I may have enjoyed the match more than some. I've come to realise that I'm something of a contrarian, and given that all my friends and the majority of the internet forums I visit hate John Cena, he's become something of a hero to me. When he set up for the People's Elbow, smirking at a crowd of angry wrestling fans, it really was like an underdog moment for me. Despite all the hatred for him (please consider I haven't watched RAW in a long time) here he was, doing his thing. I was oddly proud of him.

 

On the flipside, I wasn't a massive fan of CM Punk vs The Undertaker. It was good, and once the Anaconda Vice was locked in, it got great, but I didn't enjoy it half as much as Undertaker's matches with Shawn Michaels or Triple H. Again, I think it comes down to the contrarian in me. I hang out with so many CM Punk lovers, that I have to amplify his flaws. So I roll my eyes at his clumsy roundhouse kicks. I chuckle at his failure to break the announce table (while wincing). I never believed he was going to win, unlike previous years where, yeah, they tricked me into thinking the streak was over.

 

I wonder if the whole contrarian thing dictates all of my tastes. On the show, I loved Randy Orton, cheered for Roman Reigns above the other Shield members (although I like the entire unit) and hated Dolph Ziggler with a fiery passion.

[Rone Rivendale]

So Reigns has 1 fan now.

[Big Roguey]

So Reigns has 1 fan now.

 

Make it 2. I love me a good powerbomb/random spear guy. Although my favourite in The Shield is still Ambrose. Kaitlyn just doesn't cut the mustard for me in The Shield. Although the dive at WM was pretty good to look at, I doubt it was good to take.

[Rickymex]

Make it 2. I love me a good powerbomb/random spear guy. Although my favourite in The Shield is still Ambrose. Kaitlyn just doesn't cut the mustard for me in The Shield. Although the dive at WM was pretty good to look at, I doubt it was good to take.

 

Same deal with me. Dean Ambrose won me over a long time ago with his promos in the indies.

 

I always thought that Roman was going to be a star just based on his looks and heritage. He's intense and they have combined him with the Shield so well that he doesn't look as green as he truly is as I believe he only has a few years as a pro.

 

I really like Seth Rollins but compared to the characters the other two have he just ends up third by default. I really wanted him to be given the push CM Punk had when he debuted on ECW. Young guy with extraordinary abilities who would fight anyone and be smart enough to use his strengths and their weaknesses to win. A midcard or tag team with someone like Richie Steamboat title reign would have a great way to debut and solidify him.

[Teh_Showtime]

So Reigns has 1 fan now.

 

I like him more than Ambrose tbh

 

My favorite is still Rollins by a country mile though. He's like Jeff Hardy except with more wrestling ability and none of the drug addiction

 

That's not to say I don't like Dean because I do, but in the group as it is I don't feel that he does anything extraordinary. You have Reigns with the great spear and powerbombs, and you have Rollins doing all of the flying moves Ambrose just seems like he's there and isn't spectacular or different as he can be.

 

I used to think Rollins was limited most by being in a group because I feel he would work better as a face, but I'm starting to think it's Dean because his only sense of individualism so far is his ring work which is good but it's nothing new and pretty standard.

[Rickymex]

I like him more than Ambrose tbh

 

My favorite is still Rollins by a country mile though. He's like Jeff Hardy except with more wrestling ability and none of the drug addiction

 

That's not to say I don't like Dean because I do, but in the group as it is I don't feel that he does anything extraordinary. You have Reigns with the great spear and powerbombs, and you have Rollins doing all of the flying moves Ambrose just seems like he's there and isn't spectacular or different as he can be.

 

I used to think Rollins was limited most by being in a group because I feel he would work better as a face, but I'm starting to think it's Dean because his only sense of individualism so far is his ring work which is good but it's nothing new and pretty standard.

 

To me Dean seems to be the stabilizing presence in the group. While all three guys are equal in terms of standing I see him as the brains, Roman as the muscle and Rollins as the energy. Dean is the one who leads the attacks (except against the Big Show who Reigns hates due to the KO Punch) and he's the one who orders the retreat. He directs traffic in the matches but trusts his teammates enough to know that if he sacrifices himself they will not waste the opportunity.

[Rickymex]

WARNING: THIS IS ONLY ARMCHAIR BOOKING!

 

Imagine if Cena turned Superman evil like this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0lWjKK6KOM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APZFAryvC8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPpZbEx_mh8

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/2401738-superman_mad_2.jpeg

 

Cena embracing his complete dominance over the rest of the roster and cementing himself as the most powerful force in the entire company. The ultimate heel who no one is safe from face or heel. The few who can match him have no reason to do so. Everyone has fallen to him as he destroyed everyone from the bottom up. He decimated The Big Show by overpowering him, he showed how violent he can be when he left Sheamus, the man with the biggest heart in the WWE, in a broken heap, and he showed that even those more skilled than him can't touch him as his rapid combination of power, ferocity, and violence destroyed Daniel Bryan. Everyone who tried to step up to him failed. Guys like Kofi Kingston, Santino Marella, and Zack Ryder who saw him as the their leader tried to talk sense into him but he completely obliterate them. Guys like Mark Henry and The Shield quickly learned that the new Cena is not someone who will ever be a victim. They quickly try to retreat from his wake. The GM's tried to stop him using their power by stacking the odds against him by putting him in fatal four ways for his title, pitting him in a handicap match against the tag team champions, and even making him battle the IC and US champions in a tornado match. Cena either took out his opponents out backstage or destroyed them in the ring. He even took out the WHC as he considered it a travesty that there existed another World Champion when he held the title. The WWE now consisted of powerless GM's, a terrified midcard and a small group left to fight John Cena consisting of Randy Orton, a broken Sheamus, the Tag Champions, The Big Show and a few big hearted rookies in Bo Dallas and Richie Steamboat. Any victories this group acquired were only moral as Cena took his revenge using sneak attacks to reduce their numbers and even the fight.

 

(I don't really have any idea on how you would end this type of storyline but this is only impossible armchair booking.)

[michgcs]

 

(I don't really have any idea on how you would end this type of storyline but this is only impossible armchair booking.)

 

It ends in only one way-- with static playing, followed by LOOK IN MY EYES! WHAT DO YOU SEE? THE CULT OF PERSONALITY!

[Rickymex]

It ends in only one way-- with static playing, followed by LOOK IN MY EYES! WHAT DO YOU SEE? THE CULT OF PERSONALITY!

 

 

This is one of the possibilities I was thinking off. Can or in his case WILL the Batman of the WWE take down Superman?

 

The only problem I had was that this means CM Punk will have to be gone for quite a long time as Cena needs to slowly rise to power over six or more months as he feuds with every possible threat. If Cena wins you then establish that NO ONE can defeat him. but if CM Punk win then you have a man who was unbeatable by everyone else and his opponent who now that he proved he can beat Cena is now unbeatable as well.

 

You have two guys at the very top with everyone else below them. Very similar to the WWE now without part-timers but there will need to be major work done in order not to destroy all the other main eventers.

[michgcs]

This is one of the possibilities I was thinking off. Can or in his case WILL the Batman of the WWE take down Superman?

 

The only problem I had was that this means CM Punk will have to be gone for quite a long time as Cena needs to slowly rise to power over six or more months as he feuds with every possible threat. If Cena wins you then establish that NO ONE can defeat him. but if CM Punk win then you have a man who was unbeatable by everyone else and his opponent who now that he proved he can beat Cena is now unbeatable as well.

 

You have two guys at the very top with everyone else below them. Very similar to the WWE now without part-timers but there will need to be major work done in order not to destroy all the other main eventers.

 

On a slightly related note, they tried a bit of "power sharing" over on SD! to start the year.

 

Taking this from another site I go to:

 

Sheamus > Alberto Del Rio

The Big Show > Sheamus

Alberto Del Rio > The Big Show

 

It was a fun little rock-paper-scissors dynamic that got old pretty fast because of WWE's propensity to over-use certain match-ups (*ahem*Ziggler-Kingston*ahem*)

 

So what's the point? There is none, really. Punk cements himself as the top face to Cena's heel, with a face Ryback making things competitive against Cena to help elevate him while a rising heel (Barrett? Ziggler?) makes things hard for Punk.

 

Like you said, it's arm chair booking, but at this point, WWE's got to start somewhere and a heel turn for Cena would certainly have shaken things up.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Reigns wins for me, by his spear alone. I got weary of the few super heavyweights pulling spears out of their asses in recent years, nothing against them using the move but Reigns brought back the beauty of them.

[milamber]

SD review:

 

- The Fandingle segment with Lillian and Santino was funny The match was entertaining and Fandango's new finisher is cool. Made up for the crap they pulled on Raw.

- Kofi vs Barrett - Didn't want to see these guys fight for the 100th time but it was actually a good physical match.

- Del Rio vs Swagger - PPV quality match. This feud is getting good mileage and with Ziggler in the mix it can only get better.

- Orton/Sheamus vs Show/Henry - Good match but pretty routine. I'd like to see a tornado tag re-match at ER.

- No Ziggler/AJ/Big E

[Self]

So Reigns has 1 fan now.

 

I like his look. His wrestling is perfectly fine for the role. I find it charming that he comes through the crowd alone. Having dipped my toe into the wrestling world, I empathise with rookies dumped into the deep end. Love seeing them do well. Ambrose and Rollins are experienced hands. I knew what they could do. Reigns has been a pleasant surprise. Capable in amongst the big dogs.

 

That being said, I love Seth Rollins' whole "flying out of nowhere" gimmick. He comes off as this lunatic. It's great.

 

I wasn't a fan of Jon Moxley on the indies. I like my indy wrestlers to bring the flippy-do's. Dean Ambrose in WWE stands out in a good way. He's weird.

[Blackman]

WARNING: THIS IS ONLY ARMCHAIR BOOKING!

 

Imagine if Cena turned Superman evil like this:

 

I would watch WWE programming for the coming year if that happens.

 

I don't 'hate' Cena: the gimmick is just stale. You're absolutely right in the sense that WWE doesn't "have to" change anything, but it would be wise to do so. What else are they going to do with Cena? I'm not creative at all, so I'd have a lot of trouble booking this situation in TEW for one. Hopefully they fare better in real life.

 

It's an underdog gimmick and he pretty much beat any popular wrestler alive.

You do the math WWE... A superhero gimmick in the main event would obviously be too cheesy, but cheesiness is still better than this. A part of me is still hoping they pull off a third brand revitalising the crappy/cheesy gimmicks into an old-school entertainment package. But like that's ever gonna happen...

 

Cena does have his good quirks: I remember the last event I went to (6y ago?). Behind us where a couple of hot girls who went to the event together. We were thinking: wtf are they doing here all alone without boyfriends to drag them to the event? Apparently they came for Cena. We had a fun time during the traditional "Let's go Hunter/Cena sucks" chant. Good times. So he does broathen the reach of the company. That said, the maximum's been reached by now. He won't bring in more fans unless he changes his character.

[Teh_Showtime]

He has gotten boring chants the past 3 raws and only one of them was in what would be considered a smark crowd. Quite frankly it's sad at this point because he has skills and can be fun, but his character is just terrible and I can't bring myself to like it.

[Moe Hunter]

Are we really even having a conversation about WWE main eventers needing stamina when The Rock headlined this past PPV?

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that just because other guys have had a flaw, we're not allowed to comment on the new guy with the same flaw. I'll be on my way.

[Rone Rivendale]

Okie, to back up my comment on Reigns (didn't realize I was gonna start a whole topic about this):

 

Ambrose is my favorite. I haven't seen alot of his indy wrestling but I have seen some of his promos from the indies and I always thought as Jon Moxley, his character was perfect. You believed that he was truly a scumbag, not that he was playing the part of one, but that he was in real life just a really seedy guy who who do anything to succeed no matter what was in his way. That's the sort of character that few have in wrestling anymore. I think it has translated to his WWE persona nicely. He is a lot more cleancut now but the arrogance and the charisma is def still there.

 

Rollins I knew well, not just from Ring of Honor as it's champion, but also well before that when he was with Jimmy Jacobs in the Age of the Fall. They also tagged in the short lived Wrestling Society X. He is a very talented guy in the ring, who I never found to be very good on the mic. In TEW terms, he was B level charisma and acting skills but more like a C- microphone skill. I have a slightly higher opinion of him in The Shield so far but Ambrose blows him away in the promo dept.

 

Reigns is a very distant 3rd for me. Generic big guy who does generic big guys moves and does short big guy promos. I don't see any potential there. He is Bull Bucanon, Mike Knox, Luke Gallows, Heidenreich, etc only Samoan. Color me indifferent.

[TakerNGN74]

Reigns is a very distant 3rd for me. Generic big guy who does generic big guys moves and does short big guy promos. I don't see any potential there. He is Bull Bucanon, Mike Knox, Luke Gallows, Heidenreich, etc only Samoan. Color me indifferent.

 

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You're comparing Roman Reigns to Heidenreich who has to be one of the worst wrestlers I have ever seen in the WWE. Roman Reigns doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence as Heidenreich and I think it's pretty harsh to compare anyone to him because like I said Heidenreich was terrible. Reigns might be the greenest of the three but in no means is he a bad wrestler, he does what he needs to do and he makes everything he does (at least that I have seen from him) look crisp and he shows no sign of how green he actually is. So to compare him to Heidenreich or anyone else you mentioned as being a generic big man you obviously don't see him for what he is a big man who CAN work I do agree He needs more work but he isn't that bad.