The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[bigtplaystew]

He just lost a step from his japan matches. And he was never as good as the japanophiles made him out to be. His "great matches in japan" were grossly overblown and generally the product of the outstanding work of his opponents.

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>When did you need actual talent to get over in the US though? He's more talented than Brodus and Ryback who both started doing their squashes at the same exact time as him in early 2012</p><p> </p><p>

Regardless of his skill it was one of the worst decisions ever to introduce a guy as something he's clearly not, and on top of that he never got any time to even establish his character. He debuted in April and had wins over Cena and Punk instantly without even seeing how the crowd responded.</p>

[lazorbeak]

Yeah it was definitely more a gimmick issue than a workrate issue. I mean Bray Wyatt's a good enough gimmick and is physically different enough that he doesn't get too much in the way of "Husky Harris" chants (and he was only around for a few months, anyway). But Albert/A-Train was around for years, and then they brought him back with a pretty stupid gimmick and him to get over immediately. And then, when he didn't get over initially, they buried the gimmick for months before he joined up with Brodus. He probably still could've been salvageable but they saw those early reactions and quickly pulled the plug.

[delv213]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah it was definitely more a gimmick issue than a workrate issue. I mean Bray Wyatt's a good enough gimmick and is physically different enough that he doesn't get too much in the way of "Husky Harris" chants (and he was only around for a few months, anyway). But Albert/A-Train was around for years, and then they brought him back with a pretty stupid gimmick and him to get over immediately. And then, when he didn't get over initially, they buried the gimmick for months before he joined up with Brodus. He probably still could've been salvageable but they saw those early reactions and quickly pulled the plug.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Bray Wyatt had months worth of vignettes done to show this guy could actually talk, that's easily the biggest thing to getting over in the WWE. Everytime I watch him talk during one of those dimly lit hallways with with that lamp, I can't help but get freaked out by how hard it is to take my eyes off him. The gimmick has a rape-ish believability about it, lord knows how many hillbilly inbred psychos there are out in those swamps in Louisiana.</p><p> </p><p> Real Gimmicky stuff usually only gets get over if they're believable. Look at how many kids back in the day were terrified of the Evil Undertaker. I know so many people that were scared of him growing up and rightfully so, the guy was a in-shape, pale, 7 feet tall dude with messy hair and tattoos all over his body. No wonder the guy commands respect backstage. He looked like a deranged murderer.</p><p> </p><p> Tensai really doesn't look intimidating, he's fat, bald, pale white, with rub on tattoos all over his body. Like someone else said, he had a better chance of just coming back as A-Train and wrecking things.</p>

[Mammoth]

To be honest, I don't think coming back as A-Train would have been enough. Clearly, we're all avid wrestling fans because lets face it, we play a wrestling sim with our spare time and therefore, we remember A-Train but I don't think his first run with the 'E was memorable enough for the casual fans to remember. Personally, I still enjoy looking back at his runs in the tag team division with both Test and as a member of the X-Factor with Justin Credible and X-Pac but obviously, those days are well behind us and his name just wouldn't have had an impact on today's audience.

 

What I would have done is packaged him as a more serious wrestler, closer in mould to Brock Lesnar than a faux-Asian monster. Give him a credible mouthpiece to take the responsibilities of both portraying a character to the audience (all Tensai would have to do was stand there and pull an occasional face) and obviously, do his talking for him. In the ring, I think he's grossly underrated. Yes, he was probably made to look better in Japan than he actually is but I think he has more than enough in the tank to become a credible wrestler in America and certainly in the WWE. Giving him, in TEW terms, a "gimmicky" gimmick was always going to hold him back.

 

In my opinion, the worst thing about today's wrestling is the lack of managers. There are so many wrestlers in the 70s/80s/90s who wouldn't be remembered as stars today if they didn't have a manager. Just look at Brock Lesnar and what Paul Heyman has done for him, even since his return. Then look at the amount of people on WWE's books already who if given a manager would be able to quickly rise the ranks. It's a forgotten art...

[Stennick]

<p>The problem was EVERY heel had a manager in the 80's. Heenan was managed like 800 guys and for every Barbarian there was a Mr. Perfect and Rick Rude who didn't need a manager. Managers are great to some degree but look at "Paul Heyman guys". Paul didn't get anyone over that was talented. Hell Axel by all accounts is super talented in the ring. The Rock chose him and the company trusted him to get him into ring shape twice, same thing with Brock Lesnar. Everyone in the "know" regards the guy as highly talented. However Paul Heyman the best manager around today couldn't make him interesting. Even Ryback who was over to some degree wasn't that interesting as a Paul Heyman guy. Really even in the 80's it was just Heenan. Slick never did anything that made me say "man thats good" nor Fuji. Jimmy Hart had his moments I'll give him that. </p><p> </p><p>

Lets face it there aren't a ton of great talkers out there to be managers. I can't even think of a guy on the indies right now thats a fantastic talker that could be used as a manger. </p><p> </p><p>

There are a lot of guys that could be bigger stars if they had better gimmicks and were booked correctly. And while I agree that managers could help I don't think too many managers elevated guys from dull and uniteresting to superstars. Guys like Brock, Taker, etc were going to be superstars with or without a mouth piece. </p><p> </p><p>

On another note I think Tensai could have gotten over just fine if they would have stuck with the plan. Vince and I only say Vince since it reeks of what he did in the 80's. Loves to build these guys up in squashes only to feed them to Cena instead of building them up along the way and THEN feeding them to Cena. Umaga was a legit badass and was destroying everything in sight for three months he was undefeated. Then he lost to Cena twice and Bobby Lashley the next month and he was just a guy then. Snitsky was another guy that had something going for him once they had him doing squashes on ECW but again two months later he's fed to Cena. This isn't a John Cena problem and its not even bad that these monsters were fed to Cena but if they took the time to build them up for six months instead of 6 weeks when they lost to Cena it wouldn't be so crippling. </p><p> </p><p>

On another not Delv I think its pretty stupid and ignorant of you to say "these divas are around so that the boys can have sex with them". Fun fact Trish Stratus was a fitness model and a successful one. She came into the WWF as the manager for T&A without a single day's training. You think she got into the WWF because "she loved the business?". Or do you think she got into it to be on television every week and further her brand while the WWF got to have a good looking woman on the television for the men in their target demo to ogle over. Another fun fact about Trish is although she had no experience in wrestling, and although she was nothing more than a model when she was hired she also had the same boyfriend from before she was hired all the way up until she got married to him and started a family. So I think its ignorant, stupid, disgusting and just plain wrong that you essentially decided to say that the women involved with the WWE are hired prostitutes. I'm glad to see that you had such strong female influences in your life that you're comfortable going around and assuming that women would take a job and stay with that job for years on end just to be sexual targets for the men based off of a lawsuit that you really don't know anything about other than what you've read on the internet. Stay classy and all that.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I can't even think of a guy on the indies right now thats a fantastic talker that could be used as a manger. <p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I generally agree with your post but truthfully Jimmy Jacobs could probably do wonders in the WWE as a manager for someone like the Ascension.</p><p> </p><p> His size is pretty much the only thing that's held him back over the years, but he has always been a fantastic talker even when teaming with Seth Rollins and he carried a good portion of that team. He is probably the one guy I always felt would be better suited as a manager.</p>

[The Final Countdown]

Larry Sweeney could have been so great as a heel manager in WWE. But yeah, I can't really think of anyone out there today that could come in from the indies and do it. Maybe RD Evans? I dunno.

[Rickymex]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Larry Sweeney could have been so great as a heel manager in WWE. But yeah, I can't really think of anyone out there today that could come in from the indies and do it. Maybe RD Evans? I dunno.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> RD Evans and Prince Nana could be pretty good personalities. Evans as a smarmy lawyer who can take a bump would be perfect and Nana with the same gimmick but WWE resources would be perfect especially giving him heels who have nothing to do and having him hire them as bodyguards.</p>

[Mammoth]

Oh, I totally agree. I want to see a return of managers but not in the way it was in the 80s, not by any means. Although I enjoyed a lot of the stables that they conjured up with the Heenan Family and such like, I was never a fan of managers having as many as 5-6 clients at a time if they were in no way involved with each other. I hear what you're saying about Curtis Axel and Ryback, but I don't think it helps that they were always playing second fiddle to either Brock Lesnar or CM Punk. I honestly believe if Heyman was given one or both of them (as a tag team) as his sole duty, he could have turned them into stars, particularly Axel for all the reasons you stated.

 

I also agree that Slick and Fuji aren't necessarily the most memorable but I think they did a job for everyone they managed and that's basically what I'd love to see today. Neither of them were great talkers, but they were great personalities and that's what made them great managers. I don't think you necessarily have to be a good talker as long as you understand the business and you know how to portray a character. That's exactly what Slick did with "The Slickster" gimmick and most certainly what Mr. Fuji did with first his evil Asian routine (with that tremendous evil laugh) and then later with the Japanese kimono and throwing salt. An evil antic at ringside is almost just as important as how good you're on the microphone to "sell your client". I think Zeb Coulter is a good example of this as he's not exactly the brightest on the microphone (although he has gradually gotten better) but what with the "We, the people!" chant and hilarious signs, he helped sell The Real Americans.

 

You're probably right, guys like The Undetaker were going to be superstars with or without a manager and managers aren't going to save the "dull and uniteresting" but I think there are plenty of people in the WWE right now who are actually fantastic wrestlers and given the right gimmick and manager they could at least be a steady midcarder rather than wasting away on Superstars or whatever.

 

Finally, when I said it's a dying art form, I meant in every aspect; promotions don't look for them and people don't want to be them as the wrestlers are expected to both build a character themselves and sustain it. So I'm not surprised there aren't many guys out there who'd be able to immediately step into that role, that's why it's only a pipe dream really. xD Although, Jimmy Jacobs is a great shout and I could see guys like Colt Cabana, Chuck Taylor and Ultramantis Black stepping into those roles. I'd also love to see James Mitchell finally given his chance in the 'E too because as far as I'm aware, he's not THAT old yet and I think he could still do a job for them. I haven't seen enough of RD Evans or Prince Nana to comment though.

[hellboy2]

i liked Umaga's manager was it Estrada, he was awesome, but i am a sucker for monster heels with a mouthpiece

 

anyone else worried that Triple H will beat Bryan, i am an on off watcher of all wrestling but my mate gets well into it from Royal Rumble onwards

 

hopefully Bryan will win, seems like the year of the beard too, i watched that video of where Brock Lesnar kills Mark Henry and does that weird bird scream school girl thing, and Henry was looking badass with his beardz and bald head

[Stennick]

Its weird I don't remember if it was completely a work or if Henry really did re up with the E not too long ago right around the time his swerve with Cena but since that awesome swerve that got everyone in the E, smart fans and casual fans all saying "man that was awesome". Since that time he's done exactly nothing. It seems like maybe he got hurt (it seems like dude spends six months of every year on the shelf) but man he's done nothing since jobbing to Cena and honestly that segment was so good it deserved more than one match and who knows maybe we would have gotten it. I know they went with DB vs. Cena the next month but by that time Cena was already going on the shelf. They might not run DB vs. Cena with an Orton cash in if Cena doesn't go on the shelf.

[dpoolez]

<p>Henry hasnt done much but theres been a lot going on since his Cena feud and honestly, other than maybe Punk leaving, everybody that needed to get pushed did.</p><p> </p><p>

The Wyatts are legit now, Bryan is a main eventer, the Rhodes and Usos got nice feuds with The Shield and NAO, Big Show was relevant for once, Cesaros a higher profile wrestler, etc.</p><p> </p><p>

Henry just didnt fit IMO, besides hes an incredibly limited wrestler who doesnt have a long list of good matches either.I know that he is a decent ratings draw ( ratings for ECW and SD bumped up when he was world champion) but theres really not a whole lot you can do with him that you cant do with a younger, more talented big guy with less dent in his armor IMO.</p><p> </p><p>

That being said, he is entertaining when hes in "Dats what I do!" mode.</p>

[lazorbeak]

As I recall, right when the Authority took the belt off Bryan and put it onto Orton, it seemed like they were setting it up so that Henry and Big Show would wrestle the Shield at the next PPV, but I think he managed to hurt himself and missed a few months before they could get the program off the ground. I agree though, it's a shame that they can't find something for the guy to do, as entertaining as he's been since the "House of Pain" stuff. They've got a million hours of programming a week on the network now, they need to dedicate 3-5 minutes for a Mark Henry squash until he's seen as a threat again, after two months of Brock Lesnar killing him and the Real Americans spinning him.

[michgcs]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>As I recall, right when the Authority took the belt off Bryan and put it onto Orton, it seemed like they were setting it up so that Henry and Big Show would wrestle the Shield at the next PPV, but I think he managed to hurt himself and missed a few months before they could get the program off the ground. I agree though, it's a shame that they can't find something for the guy to do, as entertaining as he's been since the "House of Pain" stuff. They've got a million hours of programming a week on the network now, they need to dedicate 3-5 minutes for a Mark Henry squash until he's seen as a threat again, after two months of Brock Lesnar killing him and the Real Americans spinning him.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If I'm not mistaken, it was rumored to take place at Summerslam, but never did.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="michgcs" data-cite="michgcs" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If I'm not mistaken, it was rumored to take place at Summerslam, but never did.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Since it was post-Authority being anti-Bryan, I'm pretty sure it was after Summerslam. It seemed like they were building to some kind of 4 vs. 4 or 5 vs. 5 match, but again, he disappeared two weeks after Summerslam and only returned to beat Ryback again in November.</p>

[delv213]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Mammoth" data-cite="Mammoth" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>In my opinion, the worst thing about today's wrestling is the lack of managers. There are so many wrestlers in the 70s/80s/90s who wouldn't be remembered as stars today if they didn't have a manager. Just look at Brock Lesnar and what Paul Heyman has done for him, even since his return. Then look at the amount of people on WWE's books already who if given a manager would be able to quickly rise the ranks. It's a forgotten art...</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think the problem is that most managers in those days were retired veteran wrestlers/bookers who understood the business and knew how to cut a good promo. They also weren't scripted by reject soap opera writers who are the reason for the wish wash product over the last 10 years. Most promos today feel so scripted, it's not like back in the 80's when everyone got experience infront of a microphone to cut promos and learn how to get themselves over in that sense. The best promo cutters in todays WWE have the most control over their characters interviews, I remember reading Bray Wyatt wrote his own promos. That's not surprising if true, considering how different they are from the rest of shit we hear today.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> On another not Delv I think its pretty stupid and ignorant of you to say "these divas are around so that the boys can have sex with them". Fun fact Trish Stratus was a fitness model and a successful one. She came into the WWF as the manager for T&A without a single day's training. You think she got into the WWF because "she loved the business?". Or do you think she got into it to be on television every week and further her brand while the WWF got to have a good looking woman on the television for the men in their target demo to ogle over. Another fun fact about Trish is although she had no experience in wrestling, and although she was nothing more than a model when she was hired she also had the same boyfriend from before she was hired all the way up until she got married to him and started a family.<strong>So I think its ignorant, stupid, disgusting and just plain wrong that you essentially decided to say that the women involved with the WWE are hired prostitutes. I'm glad to see that you had such strong female influences in your life that you're comfortable going around and assuming that women would take a job and stay with that job for years on end just to be sexual targets for the men based off of a lawsuit that you really don't know anything about other than what you've read on the internet. Stay classy and all that.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You have to argue with me over everything I say, get your head out of the sand! I said it was sad that most of the diva's now a days are using this as a platform for bigger and better things. How can anyone argue without questioning someone's judgement and character? Oh wait that's what you did because you have no proof that I'm wrong. Wrestling isn't cool anymore and that was the main reason most diva's growing up in the 80's stayed around so long in the late 90's/mid 2000's. They loved the business and they took care of the egomaniacs that didn't want to take bumps like Sable. Sable is a huge example of someone who just did it for publicity since everyone said she complained she didn't want to drop the Diva's title and didn't want to take bumps in a match because it could rapture her plastic boobs and bruise her plastic face. </p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingArchive/jun4_wre.html" rel="external nofollow">http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingArchive/jun4_wre.html</a></p><p> </p><p> ^ PROOF FROM A WWF LAWYER THAT SHE SUED FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT, QUOTES FROM SABLE HERSELF!?! The internet must be so biased and makes up too many facts. I must be ignorant for reading these things right, she came back only to make out with Vince and dump her then husband for the biggest star in the company, at the time. I'm so sure Sable came back because of her love for wrestling especially after she sued the WWF for $110 million dollars for sexual harassment, she ended up posing for Playboy 2 more times because of the exposure of wrestling which she did none of for her entire run! Missy Hyatt also sued Eric Bishoff/WCW for sexual harassment. I'm sure she didn't sleep with guys in the locker room right? Not according to her own book. </p><p> </p><p> Anyways Jericho and Lita, you know the girl who loved wrestling so much she went to Mexico with very little money and tried to train in Lucha Libre, recently talked about how Vince obviously doesn't care about the diva's anymore. If he did he would've gave them more screen time to showcase their skill and try and outperform the boys. It's been 10 years since a pair of females main evented Raw and Trish and Lita were the last diva's to do that. I also can't believe you brought up Trish as being a perfect example, didn't Vince degrade her to barking like a dog and making out with him on TV each week? So classy right, I'm sure Vince didn't love that? I'm 100% sure if that was done on today's TV, WWE would be off TV all together with a few lawsuits from numerous pro-women rights organizations. How many diva's got to make out with the boss over the years? You don't think Vince loves that aspect of hiring talentless females like Torrie Wilson so that he can make out with her and grope her in segments? She's only dating the richest pro-athlete today named Alex Rodriguez. I'm sure she didn't use the WWE as a platform for fame. What about Sable? Do I have to repeat myself on her?</p><p> </p><p> AJ has been the only diva in the past 6-7 years who's gotten spotlight screen time and how many guys has she dated to get into that spot? I got news for you, CM Punk wasn't the first. Jay Lethal will confirm that since he trained her while sleeping with him. Sure is cheaper then paying $2000 to train at a school.</p><p> </p><p> How many diva's are dating current day superstars? How many of them ended up marrying someone in power? Look at Kelly Kelly who's gone through the entire locker room, only to move onto a hockey star named Sheldon Souray. She wasn't caught kissing/grinding a married man named Chris Jericho in pictures right, I'm so sure Jericho's wife is pleased that her husband is so close with a 20 something year old kissing her husband on the lips, right? Batista didn't date Kelly Kelly either, right? Test didn't touch Kelly Kelly either? </p><p> </p><p> What about Melina? She didn't sleep with Batista and Mike Knox while Johnny Nitro was dating her right?</p><p> </p><p> These men are Vince's meal ticket, he wants to keep them happy when they're on the road 300+ days a year. How hard do you think it is to keep a relationship while doing that? You don't think Vince knows that?</p><p> </p><p> I apologize for ranting on you, just don't call my character into question when it's painfully obvious to almost everyone who watches wrestling that the diva's don't do anything significant and haven't for over 10 years. And by the way, Prostitutes get paid for money for having sex, I not once said they were prostitutes.</p><p> <a href="http://s151.photobucket.com/user/delvecchio213/media/003_zpsa5630466.jpg.html" rel="external nofollow"><span>http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s138/delvecchio213/003_zpsa5630466.jpg</span></a><a href="http://s151.photobucket.com/user/delvecchio213/media/000_zpsad2b47db.jpg.html" rel="external nofollow"><span>http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s138/delvecchio213/000_zpsad2b47db.jpg</span></a></p>

[milamber]

<p>I'd like to see Edge, Christian or Jericho as a manager in the future.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

<span style="text-decoration:underline;"><strong>NXT Review:</strong></span></p><p> </p><p>

<strong>Mojo vs Dempsey</strong> - The big jobber got in lots of offense but the popular Mojo won. The guy has star potential but his moveset sucks.</p><p>

<strong>Breeze vs Zayn</strong> - Graves pushed Zayn into the ringpost during his entrance. No match.</p><p>

<strong>Rose vs Camacho</strong> - Rose's gimmick is silly but he's totally owning it. Camacho is underrated. Rose won this entertaining match.</p><p>

<strong>Sasha vs Bayley</strong> - Solid match. Bayley taking the mickey out of Sasha was funny. She's almost as over as Paige and Emma now. Sasha has a strong character but she lacks a little finesse in the ring.</p><p>

<strong>English vs Sheamus</strong> - The match was a good brawl. Sheamus won of course but English held his own.</p><p> </p><p>

<span style="text-decoration:underline;"><strong>Verdict:</strong></span> Good show.</p>

[delv213]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="dirtsheets" data-cite="dirtsheets" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The early estimates are in for the WWE Royal Rumble and WWE Elimination Chamber 2014 pay-per-views.<p> </p><p> The <strong>WWE Royal Rumble</strong> show, which took place on Sunday, January 26, 2014, is estimated at selling <strong>445,000</strong> pay-per-views.</p><p> </p><p> The <strong>WWE Elimination Chamber</strong> show, which took place on Sunday, February 23, 2014, is estimated at selling <strong>203,000</strong> pay-per-views.</p><p> </p><p> Both numbers are the worldwide figures. As of right now, we don't have the domestic number available.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm surprised the Rumble actually did in line with 2011/2012 Rumbles. I can't see anyone buying the PPV for anything other then the Rumble match itself as Cena/Orton played second fiddle to Batista/Bryan hype for winning the Rumble. </p><p> </p><p> 2011 Rumble: <strong>446,000</strong> (Miz vs. Orton/Del Rio Rumble)</p><p> 2012 Rumble: <strong>443,000</strong> (CM Punk vs. Dolph Ziggler/Sheamus Rumble)</p><p> 2013 Rumble: <strong>579,000</strong> (Rock vs. Punk/Cena Rumble)</p><p> </p><p> As for the Chamber, actually up from 2011/2012 buyrate.</p><p> </p><p> 2011 Chamber: <strong>200,000</strong> (John Cena Chamber/Edge Chamber/ Miz vs. Lawler)</p><p> 2012 Chamber: <strong>178,000</strong> (John Cena vs. Kane/Daniel Bryan Chamber/CM Punk Chamber)</p><p> 2013 Chamber: <strong>213,000</strong> (Rock vs. Punk II/Swagger Chamber)</p><p> </p><p> I'm still trying to forget that awful Cena/Kane feud. :'/</p>

[Stennick]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You have to argue with me over everything I say, get your head out of the sand! I said it was sad that most of the diva's now a days are using this as a platform for bigger and better things. How can anyone argue without questioning someone's judgement and character? Oh wait that's what you did because you have no proof that I'm wrong.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So let me get this straight. You're saying "sure I said that Vince only hired these women to be sexual prey for the alpha males he's got running up and down the road 300 days a year and you have no proof that I'm wrong so that makes me right and not only does it make me right it makes me so right and so confident that I'm right that I'll spout those disgusting assumptions on a message board". I mean thats what you're saying right? Its a rhetorical question because thats exactly what you said. You said I have no proof that you're wrong, you did say those things on a message board and you did say thats the only reason Vince hired them. So yeah once again you're a classy individual. Completely disgusting, misinformed, ignorant and wrong but classy in your own misogynistic way I'm sure. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Wrestling isn't cool anymore and that was the main reason most diva's growing up in the 80's stayed around so long in the late 90's/mid 2000's. They loved the business and they took care of the egomaniacs that didn't want to take bumps like Sable. Sable is a huge example of someone who just did it for publicity since everyone said she complained she didn't want to drop the Diva's title and didn't want to take bumps in a match because it could rapture her plastic boobs and bruise her plastic face. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So wrestling isn't "cool" anymore? What is youre definition of cool because the WWE has three television shows broadcast a week, they sell out constant arenas they just launched a pay network. I'm not sure what is "cool" and whats not but I'd say they are a highly successful business and I would think something that isn't "cool" anymore wouldn't be able to accomplish that. Is it as popular as its ever been? No of course not but it certainly still holds its own otherwise they wouldn't be on the verge of tripling their television rights. Also What Divas in the 80's loved the business? What divas in the 90's loved the business? 99 percent of those divas were wives. Sable, Elizabeth, Sunny, Terri, Debra I mean seriously nearly every major diva of the 80's and 90's were wives of guys so in what world did they "love the business" and more likely it was "hey you got a hot wife wanna put her on tv?" and more than likely it was a way for her to travel with her husband. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> <a href="http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingArchive/jun4_wre.html" rel="external nofollow">http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingArchive/jun4_wre.html</a><p> </p><p> ^ PROOF FROM A WWF LAWYER THAT SHE SUED FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT, QUOTES FROM SABLE HERSELF!?! The internet must be so biased and makes up too many facts. I must be ignorant for reading these things right, she came back only to make out with Vince and dump her then husband for the biggest star in the company, at the time. I'm so sure Sable came back because of her love for wrestling especially after she sued the WWF for $110 million dollars for sexual harassment, she ended up posing for Playboy 2 more times because of the exposure of wrestling which she did none of for her entire run! Missy Hyatt also sued Eric Bishoff/WCW for sexual harassment. I'm sure she didn't sleep with guys in the locker room right? Not according to her own book. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I understand she sued the WWF/E for sexual harrasment but that wasn't the ENTIRE lawsuit it was for multiple things. Also you understand that she dropped that lawsuit by over half and then settled out of court. So suing for 110 million and getting who knows what after already slicing your suit in half in the first place isn't exactly daming evidence. Also does it say in that suit how she was sexually harassed? By who? I could go to work tomorrow and sue for sexual harassment to the tune of 110 million doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying these women aren't sexually harassed but what I am saying is that executives at every Fortune 500 company have had sexual lawsuits against them. Does that mean they only hire the female executives for sexual enjoyment? Of course it doesn't so why is it that if an executive files a sexual harassment lawsuit its not evidence that women are only in those offices for sexual purposes but somehow a sexual harassment lawsuit in the WWE its different? </p><p> </p><p> Seriously here has been you're entire argument so far. "Vince hires women that will have sex with the men to keep them happy, you can't prove that I'm wrong" and "women have filed sexual lawsuits against pro wrestling so that means that....they were sexually harassed"....you know just like every company in the world which is why we all have to sign those ten page sexual harassment zero tolerance papers when we get hired. I mean seriously thats your whole argument. "Women are sexual prey you can't prove they aren't" and "women get sexually harassed at their workplace". No offense but are you 11 years old? Thats the weakest argument I've ever heard in my life and I've read your other ramblings. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Anyways Jericho and Lita, you know the girl who loved wrestling so much she went to Mexico with very little money and tried to train in Lucha Libre, recently talked about how Vince obviously doesn't care about the diva's anymore. If he did he would've gave them more screen time to showcase their skill and try and outperform the boys. It's been 10 years since a pair of females main evented Raw and Trish and Lita were the last diva's to do that.</div></blockquote> <p> </p><p> So wait I'm confused. First you say that Lita slept her way into the business just like EVERY OTHER WOMAN, then you go on to give her credit for main eventing RAW and saying "that will never happen again". I'm confused is Lita in the "only in the business to get expsoure and sleep with the men" or is she in the "she had real talent not like the hussies today who don't care about THIS BUSINESS". I lost track since you first degrade her implying what she has and hasn't done and then you turn around and praise her accomplishment. Anyway moving on. </p><p> </p><p> Lets just say Vince has been in business since 1984 (I believe he's owned it longer but just go with me here.) That means he's owned the company 30 years and in those thirty years lets say he's averaged two television shows a week (I'm sure it might be slightly closer to three since he had a million shows on in the 80's but again this is just bare bones math). Lets just say that Vince has televised 3,000 television shows in 30 years. Again thats two tv shows a week for 30 years. I can only recall women main eventing a television show one time and have only heard about women main eventing a televised WWF/E show one time in 3,000 shows. My math is a bit rusty but doesn't that come up to something like women main eventing a Vince show one one thousandth of a percentage of his shows? So you're saying "if Vince cared about the women he'd give them a chance to outshine the boys". He's never had them main eventing or showcases themselves. I'm sure there are multiple reasons why but the truth is never once has there been any evidence that good women wrestling is going to draw like the men do. So now your argument is "Vince did something once in 3,000 shows and if he cared about them he would do it again even though there isn't a single shred of statistical evidence showing that he SHOULD do this again". I mean seriously tell me this isn't your "A" game. You're a B+ debater at best. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> I also can't believe you brought up Trish as being a perfect example, didn't Vince degrade her to barking like a dog and making out with him on TV each week? So classy right, I'm sure Vince didn't love that? I'm 100% sure if that was done on today's TV, WWE would be off TV all together with a few lawsuits from numerous pro-women rights organizations. How many diva's got to make out with the boss over the years? You don't think Vince loves that aspect of hiring talentless females like Torrie Wilson so that he can make out with her and grope her in segments? She's only dating the richest pro-athlete today named Alex Rodriguez. I'm sure she didn't use the WWE as a platform for fame. What about Sable? Do I have to repeat myself on her?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So you're saying if the WWE made Trish bark like a dog on Monday they would be thrown off the air? Have you never watched an episode of CSI or SVU where much worse things are done to females (like them being killed, raped and tortured" than this. Seriously you just siad that Vince would be thrown off television for a woman barking like a dog while I could name you a 100 shows across the world that have done much worse to women. Its a TELEVISION show! Also you're saying "Vince likes making out with these women". You think that actors don't like making out with Anne Hathaway? So when Christian Bale kisses Anne Hathaway the only reason they hired Anne was so that alpha male Christian could claim her as his sexual territory by....making out with her? I mean again here is your argument. "Guys make out with the girls on screen thats PROOF they want them as sexual prey" and "women barking like dogs on television is worse than dozens of other television shows in American primetime network television that depict women doing far worse acts". I mean seriously that is your argument. Things that happen ON SCREEN on a TELEVISION show are proof that the womens' only purpose is to have sex with the boys. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>AJ has been the only diva in the past 6-7 years who's gotten spotlight screen time and how many guys has she dated to get into that spot? I got news for you, CM Punk wasn't the first. Jay Lethal will confirm that since he trained her while sleeping with him. Sure is cheaper then paying $2000 to train at a school.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't know what you're even saying here. Are you saying AJ Lee didn't pay to get trained? And then pay again just to get a TRYOUT with the WWE? I'd love to see your facts backing that up. Also I didn't find anything on Jay Lethal saying "yeah I slept with her and thats how she got trained". I read something saying how happy he is for her, how talented she is, and how they used to be in a relationship long ago. Again though I'm not opening this can of worms. The fact that you apparently think AJ slept her way to the "top" is interesting and pretty on point with the rest of your baseless claims. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> How many diva's are dating current day superstars? How many of them ended up marrying someone in power? Look at Kelly Kelly who's gone through the entire locker room, only to move onto a hockey star named Sheldon Souray. She wasn't caught kissing/grinding a married man named Chris Jericho in pictures right, I'm so sure Jericho's wife is pleased that her husband is so close with a 20 something year old kissing her husband on the lips, right? Batista didn't date Kelly Kelly either, right? Test didn't touch Kelly Kelly either? </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How many girls at McDonalds sleep around? How many GUYS at McDonalds sleep around? Or how about high school? Or how about college? Or how about how many people that frequent the same clubs wind up trading around partners? You realize that nearly every job has people that sleep together right? Hell there are people on this message board that have met and started relationships. On top of that how many friends have had their g/f sleep with another friend? Or how many couples have been unfaithful in the work place? You're making this out to sound like its a WWE thing when its just LIFE man. Maybe you've never had a g/f or maybe you've been lucky enough to always be with the same girl/guy (I have no idea if you're a guy or a girl or what your preference is).</p><p> </p><p> Here is a fun fact backed up by NUMBERS. You want me to prove you wrong I guess I'll go back to the alimighty number. I've read now four different sources that all state "three out of ten employees engage in office romance". So 30 percent of people that work in a professional setting sleep with each other. Are the women in those offices hired purely for sexual prey for the office male executives as well? Its different somehow isn't it? Or are you simply saying that women in general are here for our taking no matter the envirement, no matter any circumstance. Again three in ten engage in office romance, maybe the WWE is higher than that because most offices you're not traveling together for 200 days out of the year so you know you get to go home and stuff. I'm not sure of too many ladies that would be cool seeing their boyfriends two days a week on a good week. You have no numbers, no facts and just assumptions that these poor women are hired so that they can be passed around the locker room. I'm making no arguments about how talented they are. I know they're better athletes than you or I will ever be. I just think again one last time its disgusting, ignorant, offensive and misogynistic. I wont reply again so please reply and tell me how wrong I am. In doing so though please give me facts to back up your point. I look forward to you showing me some written credible source that says AJ Lee didn't pay for her training, or I look forward to reading about how even though 30 percent of men and women that work together engage in romance together that the WWE is different somehow. Are the percentages higher? Sure why not I honestly have no idea but again that 30 percent is on people that presumably go home every night. You don't get that luxury five nights a week in the WWE but again you have ZERO evidence that its more than 30 percent. I've given you numbers proving you're wrong about work place romance, I've given you percentages on why Vince shouldn't be expected to run another all women main event. I've backed up my case and I won't reply again because honestly I completely eviscerated your entire argument. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong>These men are Vince's meal ticket, he wants to keep them happy when they're on the road 300+ days a year. How hard do you think it is to keep a relationship while doing that? You don't think Vince knows that?</strong><p> </p><p> I apologize for ranting on you, just don't call my character into question when it's painfully obvious to almost everyone who watches wrestling that the diva's don't do anything significant and haven't for over 10 years. <em>And by the way, Prostitutes get paid for money for having sex, I not once said they were prostitutes</em>.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Are you really that dense? In the bolded part you say Vince wants to keep these guys happy so he HIRES (as in pays these women a salary) these women to keep these men "happy". </p><p> </p><p> Then in the italicized part you say "I'm not calling anyone a prostitute". When the EXACT definition of that would be to take goods or money to sleep with men. Which is EXACTLY what you're saying. Seriously you're saying 'Vince hires these women to keep the men happy" thats a freaking prostitute. I mean seriously is English not your first language? I'm not being insulting I'm asking because that would explain why you didn't make any sense throughout your entire/rant/rambling. I'm done with it. You have some real issues when it comes to women but hey as long as you don't live around the St. Louis area my loved ones are safe <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Rickymex]

My message wouldn't be as long as Stennick's but those accusations are disgusting and stereotypical of what people think of the IWC.

[lazorbeak]

Yeah this conversation is disgusting and let's not have it.

[delv213]

I never once said I was happy that this is how Vince obviously thinks of women, If he didn't, like I said. He'd be booking them to have 8-10 minute matches with some sort of backstory to get them both over. I want to see them wrestle and not just look pretty for their backstage shoots or total diva's TV show.

 

Stennick your post is too long to read, you talk as if f*cking people in the workplace happens all the time and is perfectly fine. Maybe if you understood the implications of a sexual relationship in any workplace you'd understand that it's morally wrong that these women, not all of them, who are talentless are around so that they could use that as a platform to get more money and screen time over the people who deserve time to showcase their skills. This is wrestling we're talking about right? Not some softcore porno.

 

If Vince really thought highly of these women would he have forced them to make out with him, have live sex celebrations, stripteases, allowing them to be groped sexually on TV? The simple fact is the few diva's that can work like Summer Rae, AJ, Natalia, Emma and Paige are called up to work 3 minute matches with no story and background on Raw and Smackdown each week, who's fault is that? It's not like Lita vs Trish didn't draw 10 years ago, their Raw main event actually kept viewers. And yes, they were the only females to main event a Raw by themselves. Go figure.

 

You say you "eviscerated" me verbally? Are we talking about wrestling or startreck here, I don't want to pull the in person jokes here, but calling me 11 years old is real mature. What's next? Are you going to Google a picture of some 18 year old pornstar and start telling me that's your girlfriend to impress people? Don't make things personal especially when you're talking to someone who's 20 years old.

 

Anyways explain to me why Sable sued the WWF for sexual harassment then came back to makeout with the boss? Is that her being a hypocrite or is it more believable that she needed the exposure wrestling gave her to get all those Playboy covers she wanted. Like I said she and many other females used the WWE as a platform. That was my argument, still really hasn't been answered.

 

I only just brought up the other female for a simple point that they used people to get to their spots in the WWE. Nothing spells job security more then dating a star in the company. It's not like the WWE cares about their workrate. If they did they'd be getting longer matches. Which is something I'd love to see because I thought matches like Emma vs. Page on NXT were fantastic. It's sad Vince doesn't think women can draw without being hussies on TV.

 

This whole argument started because of Cameron stating her favorite match of all time was Melina vs. Alica Fox on Tough Enough. If you didn't understand why Austin/The Other Trainers threw her off the show after saying that, she was the first gone if you didn't know, you don't understand life in general.

 

This is what I'm talking about:

 

All I want is for women who actually have talent to get their just due, you completely misconstrued my point by trying to make me sound sexist because of my prior bashing of your points. Admit it, you just don't like me you idiot. So you took my one point in which someone replied to "At least we have Emma vs Paige at Nxt" who obviously understood my point and twisted it into your little thrashing of my character. Bravo!

 

Proof that I support women wrestling in general.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s138/delvecchio213/emmacomment_zps75c0bcc4.jpg

[Adam Ryland]

Please use private messages if you want to continue this argument, there'll be suspensions if it continues past this point.

 

And as a general reminder, please remember that swearing is not OK on these forums. There's been a marked rise in it from some members recently, it won't be tolerated.

[lazorbeak]

In other news, WWE just showed John Cena's first ever appearance on a 2002 Smackdown. He has a good, 50/50 match with Kurt Angle, and then backstage, Undertaker gives him a handshake and has a "good job, kid," moment. I think WWE sees something in this kid. Also on the episode, D-Von Dudley is a Reverend now and he's got a new manager.