The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="iruleall15" data-cite="iruleall15" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The difference wit Austin is that he is actually entertaining in Hus promos. Cena has fine the same belittling for years that doesn't help a feud and only hurts his oppt. Also get your facts right on the Austin Lesnar thing. Austin didn't want to have that match on a round one. He wanted it on PPV since they were both the top guys. Cena has put over one man clean in how many years? That's pathetic. DB is the only one to beat Cena clean in aong time. Even Punk at MITB had VKM and Johnny Ace there as a distraction. Your D riding of Cena is sad. You defend him when he doesn't deserve it. You don't think Cena calls the shots for himself? What happened to Alex Riley's push after his backstage thing with Cena? Why have numerous people spoken out against him after they leave WWE? Cena is a company bitch who will do anything to stay on top.</div></blockquote><p> Cena can work the mic' like no one's business. No, I don't think Cena calls the shots for himself, or else he'd be in the main event programme, not working a mid card storyline with Bray Wyatt. Riley's push has nothing to do with Cena, again, Cena is not on the booking committee.</p><p> </p><p> If you believe that Austin walked away from his career over a disagreement about what show a match should be on, that's fine. I'll continue to believe that Austin's ego got the better of him and he didn't want to put Brock over.</p><p> </p><p> As for those that have been released saying things about John Cena (or anything to do with the WWE, in general), I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Wrestling, much like any form of entertainment, is full of bitter people that never made it, jealous of those at the top. They say what they will to make themselves feel better.</p><p> </p><p> I repeat myself here, the reasons people are giving as to why Cena is the worst thing to ever happen to the WWE are the exact same things that guys like Austin, Rock and Hogan did in their respective era's.</p>

[Rickymex]

I personally haven't heard the podcast but Jericho and Edge discussion on how Cena booked his match against the Nexus at Summerslam seriously throws the "Cena doesn't book things" out the window.

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>The big difference of course is that Cena has been in the main event longer than Rock or Austin's individual careers in WWE and as such they never had a time period when they just constantly were a massive roadblock for new stars that have still never recovered after being in a program with Cena. No Wyatt's career isn't over but look at how Barrett bounced back after a program with Cena...by losing in 5 minutes at WM. What about Ziggler who looked like utter trash in that feud? He still can't buy a win despite enormous fan support.</p><p> </p><p>

And on the subject of merchandise, CM Punk was the only guy to beat Cena in merch since 2006 and his reward was still being a very visible second fiddle to Cena who Cena always went on last over despite the title. Maybe it's not 100% Cena but let's not act like he just does everything they tell him to because that's not how anyone became the top guy in the industry</p>

[RayW]

<p>Before I continue, let me just state, I don't like Cena. I just don't hate him either.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rickymex" data-cite="Rickymex" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I personally haven't heard the podcast but Jericho and Edge discussion on how Cena booked his match against the Nexus at Summerslam seriously throws the "Cena doesn't book things" out the window.</div></blockquote><p> My understanding is that Cena was to get the pin, Jericho and Edge suggested letting Nexus get the win, and Cena said no. This was during planning for a match. In this case, since everyone has some input on their match, everyone would be a booker. They aren't.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The big difference of course is that Cena has been in the main event longer than Rock or Austin's individual careers in WWE and as such they never had a time period when they just constantly were a massive roadblock for new stars that have still never recovered after being in a program with Cena. No Wyatt's career isn't over but look at how Barrett bounced back after a program with Cena...by losing in 5 minutes at WM. What about Ziggler who looked like utter trash in that feud? He still can't buy a win despite enormous fan support.<p> </p><p> And on the subject of merchandise, CM Punk was the only guy to beat Cena in merch since 2006 and his reward was still being a very visible second fiddle to Cena who Cena always went on last over despite the title. Maybe it's not 100% Cena but let's not act like he just does everything they tell him to because that's not how anyone became the top guy in the industry</p></div></blockquote><p> I'm not saying he does everything that they tell him too, I'm saying he's doing nothing that those that paved the way before him didn't do.</p><p> </p><p> Workers working with the top guy and never reaching that height again after is nothing new, too. It happened in the 1980's with Hogan, it happened in the 1990's with Shawn, Bret, Austin, it happened in the early 2000's with Triple H.</p><p> </p><p> I get that it's trendy to hate Cena, but the whole ordeal is becoming so painfully ridiculous that people are actually clutching at straws to make him the bad guy, while forgetting that all their heroes did the exact same things.</p>

[ThatChizzle]

Vince McMahon is the final say so in any booking in WWE. Always has been, and always will be until the day he dies.

[Rickymex]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RayW" data-cite="RayW" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Before I continue, let me just state, I don't like Cena. I just don't hate him either.<p> </p><p> </p><p> My understanding is that Cena was to get the pin, Jericho and Edge suggested letting Nexus get the win, and Cena said no. This was during planning for a match. In this case, since everyone has some input on their match, everyone would be a booker. They aren't.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The thing I'm talking about is how Cena apparently wanted it to end up him vs 3 and that it was his idea to get DDT'd outside the ring, counter the 450 splash (the Nexus iconic move) right after, eliminate Gabriel then quickly eliminate Wade Barrett.</p>

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rickymex" data-cite="Rickymex" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The thing I'm talking about is how Cena apparently wanted it to end up him vs 3 and that it was his idea to get DDT'd outside the ring, counter the 450 splash (the Nexus iconic move) right after, eliminate Gabriel then quickly eliminate Wade Barrett.</div></blockquote><p> It probably was his idea, but it still would have had to go through the agent, and then to creative. The same process happens for every match, the agent gets with the wrestlers, they go over the match, plan the finish, it goes back to creative. Or, at least, that's how I've heard it goes by the way some of the workers talk about it. It doesn't mean that he books his own storylines, it means that he gets a say in his matches - as do most other workers. It's the same process for everyone. At the end of the day it still would have been Vince McMahons decision to say yes or no, not Cena.</p>

[Rickymex]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RayW" data-cite="RayW" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It probably was his idea, but it still would have had to go through the agent, and then to creative. The same process happens for every match, the agent gets with the wrestlers, they go over the match, plan the finish, it goes back to creative. Or, at least, that's how I've heard it goes by the way some of the workers talk about it. It doesn't mean that he books his own storylines, it means that he gets a say in his matches - as do most other workers. It's the same process for everyone. At the end of the day it still would have been Vince McMahons decision to say yes or no, not Cena.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But that would mean ignoring the fact that in terms of backstage power Cena would only be second to McMahon most likely. Maybe not official power that Stephanie or Triple H have but as the biggest star and the only mainstream star he can most likely decide his feuds and matches. If Stephanie or Triple H left the company they can get another suit to replace them but if Cena left what would they do. Even if the end decision is Vince's there no denying Cena's decision are taken into account.</p>

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rickymex" data-cite="Rickymex" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But that would mean ignoring the fact that in terms of backstage power Cena would only be second to McMahon most likely. Maybe not official power that Stephanie or Triple H have but as the biggest star and the only mainstream star he can most likely decide his feuds and matches. If Stephanie or Triple H left the company they can get another suit to replace them but if Cena left what would they do. Even if the end decision is Vince's there no denying Cena's decision are taken into account.</div></blockquote><p> Of course they are, he's the WWE's biggest star. And the same was done with Austin, Rock, Austin, Savage, Hart, HBK, HHH... These are all the heroes to the same people that despise Cena for the things that he does, which these same people done themselves. This is my point. This is what I have been trying to say, Cena is doing nothing new, protecting his spot. Austin did it, Rock did it, Savage did it, Hogan did it, HBK did it, the list goes on.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

And as I have pointed out it is very different considering that his time on top has doubled anyone else's since Hogan left which makes his instances much more in terms of occasion and visibility

[Jaysin]

That doesn't change the fact that it's insanely hypocritical.

[Teh_Showtime]

I don't see people ever defending guys like Hogan, Michaels, or Austin though like they do Cena either.

[Mammoth]

They wouldn't need to if people didn't trash him so much.

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't see people ever defending guys like Hogan, Michaels, or Austin though like they do Cena either.</div></blockquote><p> That's because they don't get attacked as much as Cena does. It's not that Cena's fans are more passionate or anything, it's that the attacks are so constant that you see people jump to his defence more.</p><p> </p><p> I remember being on forums in the late 1990's like the AOL ones and it was the same thing being said about The Rock with a lot of people jumping to his defence. But now everyone has forgot that The Rock was doing it too.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

The Rock outside of the year 2000 (ONE YEAR) spent a lot of time on his back as well and I don't even like him that much but Rock sold his ass off for his opponents and his excessive trash talk didnt hurt the character of his opponent because they beat him or they looked really good against him. There have been times when Cena outright says his opponent isnt good enough (as the face) and then proceeds to cleanly beat them after overcoming multiple finishes that would have been suitable outs. And once again he's done it for far longer

[dpoolez]

<p>Cenas problems are that he doesnt put too many people over too often and he's bad at selling anything physically and verbally. I've defended his no-selling before but there were times like at WM 23 or his series of Ziggler matches where it made no sense and made things seem more fake than it already is.</p><p> </p><p>

The no-selling verbally is less annoying because I've seen Rock, DX, etc. do it but in an era where there are very few true trash talkers left it can be a problem. IIRC even Rock toned down the no-selling during his feud with Punk and got serious. The trash talking era has come and gone and unless you're in the ring with a Rock, Triple H, Jericho, etc. it doesnt make much sense to do it with guys who arent suited for that style.</p><p> </p><p>

Another thing is that for the time that he's been around, he could've really helped build up other talent. Maybe not from 2005-2010 since you could consider that his time, but from 2010- Today he's only put over Punk and Bryan, and everybody else who looked promising like Barrett, Ziggler, Miz, Ryback, etc. all got shoved back down to the midcard for no reason. This could be blamed more on WWE's crappy booking and failing to capitalize on workers' momentum for some odd reason (supposedly to make them pay their dues so they wont walk out on them like Brock did, although that's idiotic thinking in of itself) but it still doesnt look good on him since all fans see are his arm getting raised, so he becomes the scapegoat for WWE's bad decisions, and maybe with knowing that Cena should've put more people over so there'd be less for people to complain about.</p><p> </p><p>

The only guys who were true main eventer as long as Cena were Undertaker who couldn't really put too many others over as it'd kill his gimmick, and even he put over Brock like crazy, HBK whose record is solid, and Triple H who put over Batista, Benoit, and Cena three years in a row, let Bryan go over him and win a title match in one night, gave Randy Orton a rub by being associated with him and even put him over on a couple of occasions, helped solidify Jeff Hardy as a serious star more than anybody except for maybe Taker, etc.</p><p> </p><p>

Cena doesnt deserve all of the hate he gets but if he was a true company man then he'd do more to help the E build more stars especially with the youth movement going on with Bray, Cesaro, Sheamus, Ziggler, The Usos, Barrett, etc.</p>

[Arrows]

<p>To add something, since people are saying "It's not Cena, it's Vince making the final booking decisions."</p><p> </p><p>

Did Vince specifically say to John Cena, "Stand there and look like you haven't even been in a match." for the end of Wyatt/Cena. Dude was involved in a really tough back and forth match, and at the end of the match he was still standing there bulletproof and happy as can be.</p><p> </p><p>

It's not even the winning that gets to me, because he's not the one deciding he always wins, and I get that. It's the way he goes about it, as if nothing even happened to him during the match.</p><p> </p><p>

He may as well scream "He gave it his all and I'm perfectly fine, I half a$$ed it and he's destroyed!"</p><p> </p><p>

He's been doing it for years. Did it to Nexus with the stupid thumbs up to the crowd after getting beat up by EIGHT MEN.</p><p> </p><p>

I'd just, like for it to look like his opponents have actually come close, and it was an even match. They don't have to beat Cena clean, but him magically being 100% most of the time really makes these guys look like they did nothin.</p>

[iruleall15]

If you want to tell me that Cena doesn't control his stuff you would be laughed at. Punk did all his creative did he not? Vince has a hard on for Cena. Of you think Vince is letting Cena do his own stuff behind closed doors with Vince you are a baffoon. Cena calls his shots.

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>I can assure you that Punk wasnt the one booking a feud between him and Daniel Bryan around a love triangle (and rectangle)</p><p> </p><p>

Nobody books themselves except HHH in his current position. It's not really rare for wrestlers to suggest ideas at all it just happens that the top guys get their ideas used sometimes...who would have thought?</p>

[bigtplaystew]

<p>Who KNOWS what goes on behind WWE booking. For real? I'm asking. Do we have any forum members that are WWE writers or have even worked for the company in some way? </p><p> </p><p>

I've always been against speculation being a reason to criticize. It's not a valid reason and in reality to me you sound like you're living in a negative fantasy realm. It's fair to see what you see. I <em>completely</em> disagree with Arrows that Cena "stood there and looked like he wasn't in a match". I think Cena sold the match just fine. In fact when I was watching it live and following along on twitter, all I was seeing was positive reviews for that match. Short of Cena falling down and needing to be carried backstage (which completely defeats the purpose of a last man <em>standing</em> match btw) I don't know what else he needed to do to "sell" the match.</p><p> </p><p>

But that said, it's a fair criticism no matter how much I disagree with it. Arrows saw the match, felt how he felt, and that's that. It's completely unfair to sit here and rip Cena for speculation. What little I know about the backstage workings in WWE is that complete creative control over one's character is essentially viewed as one of the -if not THE- biggest reasons behind WCW's downfall and I don't think anyone... Punk Cena, DB, even HHH have the final say on what happens to their character. Now i'm doing a bit of speculation of my own here, but at least I'm using words like "I think". And more important to the discussion, it's not my primary reason fforsayign bad things about an otherwise high quality worker.</p><p> </p><p>

To disagree with me is fine, but to rip Cena because you believe some backstage stuff that may or may not even be true is simply not a true asset to the conversation in my personal opinion. And it's the reason people will "defend" Cena. Because you are watching one of the greatest performers in the history of the business and the bad stuff being said about him is most likely untrue in this case.</p>

[hellboy2]

<p>i actually quite like Cena, my only problem is the Wyatt/Cena feud just seems like a cycle, i remember Umaga had a ast man standing match, and the build up seemed similar, even the whole Cena is down and the manager or Harper in this case count slowly to ten</p><p> </p><p>

I don't watch so much these days but are they still calling Cena the underdog for his matches, i remember Cena destroyed Khali, and had another match with him and Cena was being billed as the underdog</p><p> </p><p>

i think the main problem is Cena is just a little stale but not for the kids</p>

[ThatChizzle]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Arrows" data-cite="Arrows" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>To add something, since people are saying "It's not Cena, it's Vince making the final booking decisions."<p> </p><p> Did Vince specifically say to John Cena, "Stand there and look like you haven't even been in a match." for the end of Wyatt/Cena. Dude was involved in a really tough back and forth match, and at the end of the match he was still standing there bulletproof and happy as can be.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Look back at WWF in the 80's. What did Hulk Hogan do? He Hulked Up. John Cena can't do the same hulk up movement, but he Hulk's Up at the end of matches. I've been watching WWF/WWE since 1985, everything cycles around and comes back. Look at Los Matadores, gimmick Tito Santana was using. Damien Sandow, a gimmick The Genius Lanny Poffo used, etc etc etc</p>

[MrSelfDestruct]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ThatChizzle" data-cite="ThatChizzle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Look back at WWF in the 80's. What did Hulk Hogan do? He Hulked Up. John Cena can't do the same hulk up movement, but he Hulk's Up at the end of matches. I've been watching WWF/WWE since 1985, everything cycles around and comes back. Look at Los Matadores, gimmick Tito Santana was using. Damien Sandow, a gimmick The Genius Lanny Poffo used, etc etc etc</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Recycling is always bound to happen, but especially when you have a family-based or PG rating. You can't exactly push the limit, but I mean WWE doesn't care.. they just want money.</p>

[PoisonedSuperman]

<p>Just some of my comments since I've been watching a lot more wrestling since the network:</p><p> </p><p>

You know how people say that Cena makes stupid faces when put in holds? Did anyone ever notice Dean Ambrose? TERRIBLE. </p><p> </p><p>

Also I'm super excited about the Seth Rollins turn! I think this could be huge for him. Evolution makes more sense with him in it then Blutista because isn't it supposed to be about the past, present and the future?</p><p> </p><p>

I'd have him in the money in the bank match, as HHH personal choice, maybe they shouldn't even make him qualify. Then you can throw Dean in there with Fandango, ADR, Swagger and RVD. The last two guys in there in case Daniel can't make it and you need a quick filler champion. That way Reigns can beat Orton and then Rollins the next month on his way to earning a match with HHH at Summerslam.</p><p> </p><p>

I was a big fan of Cesaro the Real American and thought just like everyone else that Paul Heyman was going to be good for him but I must say he has digressed. I mean the last 3 "Paul Heyman Guys" Axel, Ryback and (so far) Cesaro have not been effective. Cesaro vs. Brock could be huge though.</p><p> </p><p>

Tyson Kidd/Brodeus Clay should form a tag team in NXT that also fights in the WWE about how they've been screwed over and have nothing left. I thought that Brodeus' character had a few strong interviews when he was talking about the E took his girls, his music and all that. </p><p> </p><p>

Summer Rae should bring in a guy to take out Fandango!! Maybe The Miz?? </p><p> </p><p>

What was with the Russian star ceremony? I mean nobody ran down to interrupt? it seemed weird and out of place to me but I like how Rusev is being portrayed. I hope he gets a fued against Cena soon. Oh and did anyone else know Lana was in Pitch Perfect? Gotta give the credit to Wikipedia but right when the Bellas sing in the first part of the movie, she's there! </p><p> </p><p>

I am a Bo-Liever!</p>

[Rickymex]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="PoisonedSuperman" data-cite="PoisonedSuperman" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> You know how people say that Cena makes stupid faces when put in holds? Did anyone ever notice Dean Ambrose? TERRIBLE. </p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Now you made Dean cry you horrible horrible man. I'm going to seek his tumblr girls on you! <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> <span>http://i.imgur.com/EXcxXRq.png</span></p>