The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Fantabulous]

As anyone actually called Cena a horrible worker? I've seen people describe him as less than a great worker and point out his flaws but I don't think anyone has called him horrible at all. And he isn't horrible. He just isn't great, either. He's good enough to carry his load, can keep up with the great workers but has enough weaknesses to keep him from being considered great.

[djthefunkchris]

As anyone actually called Cena a horrible worker? I've seen people describe him as less than a great worker and point out his flaws but I don't think anyone has called him horrible at all. And he isn't horrible. He just isn't great, either. He's good enough to carry his load, can keep up with the great workers but has enough weaknesses to keep him from being considered great.

 

Hogan, Austin, The Rock. With the exception of possibly Austin before his injury, I don't know if I would consider any of them "Great" workers. Promo greats, definately, Charasmatic, definately, etc. Ringwork, I think they did their jobs. Even Austin when he reached the height of his popularity was after his neck injury.

 

I'd venture to say that it's a trend. I remember when Hogan had his moves of doom as well (for example).

 

I think what people have a problem with is that it seems like the expectations are much higher with the new guys, as opposed to the older ones. Maybe that sounds apologetic, I'm not sure if I actually got that meaning down right yet, but if so, I don't mean for it to sound quite like that. More like, I think the standards are an unreasonable measure when in comparison, it's not like Cena today is that far behind any of the other's from yesturday, far as ringwork goes. I don't think he flows as well at times, but I'm not trying to say he's as good as... Just that it's not like he's eons away.

[Carmichael]

im pretty sure that cena will be calling everything in the ring vs any opponent, so any match he has, will also have a massive input from him beforehand too. which is why i think hes a great worker, the punk/rvd matches are legendary imo and i imagine he would be the guy doing most of the work in those.

[Arrows]

Hogan, Austin, The Rock. With the exception of possibly Austin before his injury, I don't know if I would consider any of them "Great" workers. Promo greats, definately, Charasmatic, definately, etc. Ringwork, I think they did their jobs. Even Austin when he reached the height of his popularity was after his neck injury.

 

I'd venture to say that it's a trend. I remember when Hogan had his moves of doom as well (for example).

 

I think what people have a problem with is that it seems like the expectations are much higher with the new guys, as opposed to the older ones. Maybe that sounds apologetic, I'm not sure if I actually got that meaning down right yet, but if so, I don't mean for it to sound quite like that. More like, I think the standards are an unreasonable measure when in comparison, it's not like Cena today is that far behind any of the other's from yesturday, far as ringwork goes. I don't think he flows as well at times, but I'm not trying to say he's as good as... Just that it's not like he's eons away.

 

Who KNEW beyond any doubt, Hulk Hogan would beat Andre?

 

Who could ever predict the Austin/Rock wars, or any war they had with ANYONE else during that period? Sure, you could kinda see the booking, but there was no THIS is what's gonna happen.

 

Fast forward.

 

Cena is Hogan II. Same basic idea. Far worse heels. Same booking concept. How come EVERY match Cena's been in pre-MITB with the exception of his bout with Sheamus (Sheamus tried his hardest to hit that table, including pulling it down with him when he went to the floor. It wasn't a botch? Why'd he try so hard to break it?) has been glaringly obvious who'd win?

 

Orton bashed his head in with a chair while he was handcuffed to a steel post, and never once during the entire beat down did anyone in the world go "Cena's gonna quit!"

 

It's never gonna happen. Cena doesn't know how to even make it LOOK like it's going to happen. Then he turns around and makes it look like the beat down never happened six seconds later when he needs to do his moves because he doesn't know how to sell an injury AND do his moves at the same time.

 

Cena isn't on their level, he's not even close.

[Teh_Showtime]

Um but how is he not on their level if Hogan did the same exact stuff? Is it because Hulk made it look like he was gonna quit?

 

Predictable? Like when he would join Nexus if he lost?

[Guest codey]

Cena is Hogan II. Same basic idea. Far worse heels. Same booking concept. How come EVERY match Cena's been in pre-MITB with the exception of his bout with Sheamus (Sheamus tried his hardest to hit that table, including pulling it down with him when he went to the floor. It wasn't a botch? Why'd he try so hard to break it?) has been glaringly obvious who'd win?

 

 

Would you please just drop the Sheamus thing? No one ones to talk about it anymore or read your repeating thoughts on it.

[Arrows]

Um but how is he not on their level if Hogan did the same exact stuff? Is it because Hulk made it look like he was gonna quit?

 

Predictable? Like when he would join Nexus if he lost?

 

Pretty much everyone knew he was gonna lose, and even knew the two new members would be the reason for it.

 

And yea, Hogan made it look like he was going to get defeated. That made the bad guys more hated, more feared, and made people want to see Hogan fight back that much more, because how dare that villain destroy Hulkamania and crush the dreams of so many kids.

 

Cena, just...wins, with no danger whatsoever.

[Gabbo]

I'd venture to guess you believed Hogan was going to lose bcause you were a kid and a mark, whereas you're now watching Cena as a grown man and smark.

 

That and the fact you seem to have a really intense and irrational dislike of Cena.

 

There are things Hogan did worse than Cena, like selling. He'd bump but rarely sell, after a match or even during a match, I can remember as a kid being infuriated with the concept of 'hulking up' which basically meant no selling your opponents offence or previous attack and destroying someone in a matter of three moves, big boot, body slam, leg drop. Hogan was a decent wrestler over in Japan but far more often than Cena in the WWF he'd revert to that basic formula.

[Teh_Showtime]

So you must have missed the part when the entire internet was shocked that Barrett won? Not to mention the casual fan since he couldn't have any help.

[supershot]

because how dare that villain destroy Hulkamania and crush the dreams of so many kids.

 

I'm pretty sure this is how the Little Jimmy's feel about Cena

[Gabbo]

Also Hogan was Champ for over 4 years straight during Rock 'n' Wrestling, that shows he was far less likely to lose than Cena, or believed to lose less likely than Cena and if you did think he was going to lose it's again probably because you were a mark.

[Fantabulous]

So, I hear Sheamus was meant to fall through a table in his Tables match Cena last year. Any truth to it?

 

Cena being part of Nexus was another storyline that could have gone on for a while with a slow build of tension as Cena is forced to help the heels and hurt the good guys until he finally snaps and makes a long-teased and long awaited comeback. Instead, it was pretty much done and dusted inside of a few weeks. And we'll just forget about the Cena being fired deal which I think, more than any other stipulation match they've run and not followed through on, killed all their stipulations dead when it comes to meaning anything

[Teh_Showtime]

Didn't he end Andre's kayfabe 15 year streak?

 

Back then once he did that I wouldn't think it possible for him to lose to people obviously inferrior to Andre

[20LEgend]

On SD! They referenced the "new/ replacement" Sin Cara has put on a bit of muscle. His manorisms were a touch different from what I've seen but he looked very similar (not that hard I know )

 

Edit: They mentioned he had added some new moves to his repetior to and in ring he looked really different to me. He also "had some trouble with his mask". It''ll be weird when Mistico comes back, I'm actually wondering if they may do some storyline with this because if they reference change and then go back it'll be weird

[shawn michaels]

People only want to hear the good stuff. Human beeings are cynical. WHy do the Cena haters have to shut up and the Cena lovers (there are some here that don't come out of the closet, no pun intended) or guys who don't like or dislike him that much have the right to speak? I'm sorry, but Cena haters are entitled to have their opinions voiced just as the next man, as long as they do it respectfully. And i didn' saw any cena haters disrespecting anyone while reading this. Cena Sucks, he always will. My greates gripp (Correct word?) with him is the fact that the super cena has been shoved down my throath for years and years. If it wasn't for that, i'd probably not hate him. Maybe dislike, but not hate. He has mick skills, he sells merchandise, bla bla. But the man sucks in a ring. He doesn't sell and he can't put on a belieavable (while spectacular at the same time) offense. He sucks! He's not by far the worst ring worker in the world, but he's not good enough (in the ring work part) to main event. Sure, some will disagree, but it's my opinion and i'll stick to it, as others will stick to theirs. Cena is definitely not worse than recent years hogan, that's for sure.

 

But the point is: Cena is what the WWE makes of him. They could find another star to sell merchandise. Hell if they couldn't find one that sold as much as him, than they would push more guys to get the same numbers. HE won't last forever. Hiding behind the excuse that he sells merchandise to justify all of his flaws is pathetic and idiotic and if the WWE doesn't start to produce new solid ME's , than they will feel the consequences.

 

Ps: I'm not answering to any specific poster, i just read this and decided to give my 2 cents.

 

Edit: I have no problem to say i've been using Cena as a ME (for now, and not as my top ME) on my WWE game. The guy gets the job done in the entertainement part; but that's just about it. And in the long run that will make him go down the card. He will not be fired as he can help others develop their entertaining skills. But beeing my top guy? No, not now, not ever.

[Teh_Showtime]

There is a difference between stating an OPINION and blindly ignoring facts. When people spew Cena hate, they never notice all of the good he brings and dismisses it as a one off.

[Stennick]

He has mick skills, he sells merchandise, bla bla. But the man sucks in a ring. He doesn't sell and he can't put on a belieavable (while spectacular at the same time) offense. He sucks! He's not by far the worst ring worker in the world, but he's not good enough (in the ring work part) to main event. Sure, some will disagree, but it's my opinion and i'll stick to it, as others will stick to theirs. Cena is definitely not worse than recent years hogan, that's for sure.

 

Its your opinion and you can stick to it all you want. I'll even be generous and not say your opinion is wrong but its certainly skewed and backwards reasoning and that illogical reasoning is certainly cause for your strange opinion.

 

Basically you're say "I know that John Cena does GREAT with charity, he's fantastic on television, he looks the part of a franchise "wrestler", he's fantastic with his entertainment skills and oh by the way he makes us a TON of money in merchandising. But this guy should not be the top guy in an ENTERTAINMENT company. I guess because Michael Bay doesn't spend three hours developing a characters backstory him and the billions of dollars his movies have made don't deserve to be at the top of hollywood either?

 

This is not Ring of Honor its Sports Entertainment. There was an old adage that Ric Flair could get a *** match out of a broomstick. Which basically meant "no matter who you are even if you're an awful wrestler Ric Flair can get a *** match out of you.". I would say the same holds true for Shawn Michaels and the internet says the same holds true for CM Punk. So if John Cena is so awful why is it he's had better matches with BOTH those guys than more talented guys? Let me ask you a question would you rather see Joe vs. CM Punk in a ninety minute draw? Or the Money in the Bank match? There is no wrong answer but they are completley different types of entertainment and both support the best of two very abstract sub genres of this particular entertainment field.

 

Still your point is that John Cena is a bad wrestler and because of that he shouldn't be the top guy even though he's the most recognizable full time wrestler they have, he makes more money in merchandise than any one else, he's loved by all the media outlets, he's clean as a whistle (best we know) in a business thats been nearly crucified by drugs and death lately. Not too mention he's a fantastic entertainer and has proven against Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Cm Punk and other guys that when its time to bring it he can and does.

 

But the point is: Cena is what the WWE makes of him. They could find another star to sell merchandise. Hell if they couldn't find one that sold as much as him, than they would push more guys to get the same numbers. HE won't last forever. Hiding behind the excuse that he sells merchandise to justify all of his flaws is pathetic and idiotic and if the WWE doesn't start to produce new solid ME's , than they will feel the consequences.

 

So let me get this straight. Once again (for the millionth time) you're saying "I don't care that John Cena makes more money merchandise wise than everyone else. I don't care that he's more popular than everyone else. They could push FIVE guys in his place and those FIVE guys would be as popular as his ONE guy and ther merch would equal this ONE guy's merch."

 

Ummmm in what business world do we say "we have this one product that is making us a ton of money. So lets focus in on these other five products we think are better and maybe COMBINED they'll make us much money as this mainstream product.". Hate the iPhone? No problem lets scrap it and create FIVE phones for FIVE times the price and then they can equal this ONE phone's profits. Except for they don't because you're spending FIVE times more to promote, market, pay and maintain that product than you are for this ONE already established product.

 

I could go on but honestly when you say things like "Merchandise blah blah blah" and "anybody can fit into the role" or "we'll find another". It shows me that you really don't understand business. You don't just find "another" product. You ride that product until the wheels fall off.

 

People should how John Cena's stale and CM Punk's character is so fresh he's the next Rock or Austin and attitude era this and that. Look at the ppv buyrate number for Money in the Bank. There most interesting, jaw dropping, captivating storyline in years and you know what it sold? The same EXACT amount as Extreme Rules which was John Cena and The Miz. House show attendances are down, televesion buyrates are the same or lower. So everyone saying that we need this fresh new product and more CM Punk is fresh and John's act has grown stale. News flash NO ONE else thats actually you know spending money on this product thinks so.

 

Either the people that say things like that are a very vocal minority or they're not spending money on the product. Either way neither of those things will convince the WWE or any other company to change the way they do business. Of course you could say "sure you'll take a dip in house show attendance, ppv buyrates and television ratings now but you MIGHT down the road bring all of those numbers to never before seen heights.". But nobody would actually say something that silly would they.

 

Anyway I know you genuinely don't understand how a business works (as cited by the last two dozen John Cena posts) but maybe somebody else will read this and say "yeah that makes sense"

[Arrows]

Its your opinion and you can stick to it all you want. I'll even be generous and not say your opinion is wrong but its certainly skewed and backwards reasoning and that illogical reasoning is certainly cause for your strange opinion.

 

Basically you're say "I know that John Cena does GREAT with charity, he's fantastic on television, he looks the part of a franchise "wrestler", he's fantastic with his entertainment skills and oh by the way he makes us a TON of money in merchandising. But this guy should not be the top guy in an ENTERTAINMENT company. I guess because Michael Bay doesn't spend three hours developing a characters backstory him and the billions of dollars his movies have made don't deserve to be at the top of hollywood either?

 

This is not Ring of Honor its Sports Entertainment. There was an old adage that Ric Flair could get a *** match out of a broomstick. Which basically meant "no matter who you are even if you're an awful wrestler Ric Flair can get a *** match out of you.". I would say the same holds true for Shawn Michaels and the internet says the same holds true for CM Punk. So if John Cena is so awful why is it he's had better matches with BOTH those guys than more talented guys? Let me ask you a question would you rather see Joe vs. CM Punk in a ninety minute draw? Or the Money in the Bank match? There is no wrong answer but they are completley different types of entertainment and both support the best of two very abstract sub genres of this particular entertainment field.

 

Still your point is that John Cena is a bad wrestler and because of that he shouldn't be the top guy even though he's the most recognizable full time wrestler they have, he makes more money in merchandise than any one else, he's loved by all the media outlets, he's clean as a whistle (best we know) in a business thats been nearly crucified by drugs and death lately. Not too mention he's a fantastic entertainer and has proven against Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Cm Punk and other guys that when its time to bring it he can and does.

 

 

 

So let me get this straight. Once again (for the millionth time) you're saying "I don't care that John Cena makes more money merchandise wise than everyone else. I don't care that he's more popular than everyone else. They could push FIVE guys in his place and those FIVE guys would be as popular as his ONE guy and ther merch would equal this ONE guy's merch."

 

Ummmm in what business world do we say "we have this one product that is making us a ton of money. So lets focus in on these other five products we think are better and maybe COMBINED they'll make us much money as this mainstream product.". Hate the iPhone? No problem lets scrap it and create FIVE phones for FIVE times the price and then they can equal this ONE phone's profits. Except for they don't because you're spending FIVE times more to promote, market, pay and maintain that product than you are for this ONE already established product.

 

I could go on but honestly when you say things like "Merchandise blah blah blah" and "anybody can fit into the role" or "we'll find another". It shows me that you really don't understand business. You don't just find "another" product. You ride that product until the wheels fall off.

 

People should how John Cena's stale and CM Punk's character is so fresh he's the next Rock or Austin and attitude era this and that. Look at the ppv buyrate number for Money in the Bank. There most interesting, jaw dropping, captivating storyline in years and you know what it sold? The same EXACT amount as Extreme Rules which was John Cena and The Miz. House show attendances are down, televesion buyrates are the same or lower. So everyone saying that we need this fresh new product and more CM Punk is fresh and John's act has grown stale. News flash NO ONE else thats actually you know spending money on this product thinks so.

 

Either the people that say things like that are a very vocal minority or they're not spending money on the product. Either way neither of those things will convince the WWE or any other company to change the way they do business. Of course you could say "sure you'll take a dip in house show attendance, ppv buyrates and television ratings now but you MIGHT down the road bring all of those numbers to never before seen heights.". But nobody would actually say something that silly would they.

 

Anyway I know you genuinely don't understand how a business works (as cited by the last two dozen John Cena posts) but maybe somebody else will read this and say "yeah that makes sense"

 

I get the idea. I get the "He makes the most monies!" The difference between the iPhone and Cena? The iPhone WILL work tomorrow. Odds are, 20 years from now, an iPhone will still function.

 

John Cena? Will not.

 

In the wrestling business, you can not put all your eggs in one basket. He could have a career ending injury tomorrow, and they've buried everyone short of CM Punk.

 

Who's gonna sell t-shirts next? No one else is even close BECAUSE of the Cena god push.

 

This is where pushing five > pushing one.

 

If ONE goes down, you still have four guys making you a decent profit. Not no one making you nothing.

[bigtplaystew]

Dude I <3 your Micheal Bay analogy. The man wont and shouldnt ever win a "Best Director" Oscar but MAN does he make a hell of an action movie. Not always, but usually :-)

 

It's very fitting.

 

Cena's good. I really can care less what his haters have to say about the situation. He's not the best ring guy in the WWE -not even close- but he's no where near as bad as some people would have you say. The dude is a born main eventer. He delivers and knows how to get a crowd behind him. His popularity is down a bit right now, but even if he goes away after WM28... he'll have been WWE's top guy for what? Five or six years? That is one HELL of a run.

 

Plus, he's a hell of a nice guy. I guess I should point out that I defend him staunchly because I met the man on a freezing cold night after a show here in Philly. He and Rey Mysterio came out after the show while the rest of the big stars snuck off in their limos and car services.

 

Not that I blame them, but Cena and Rey came out, spent over an hour talking with fans, taking pictures, signing autographs. Both were class acts and hung out way later than they should have.

[Hive]

I get the idea. I get the "He makes the most monies!" The difference between the iPhone and Cena? The iPhone WILL work tomorrow. Odds are, 20 years from now, an iPhone will still function.

 

Seriously, are you for real with this outlandish claim?

[Arrows]

Seriously, are you for real with this outlandish claim?

 

How exactly is it outlandish?

 

I've had the same home phone for close to 16 years. If you take good enough care, and nothing of epic proportion happens to render cell phones useless? Sure, it could happen. Even if one breaks, you can always go buy another to be an instant replacement of the same value.

 

There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.

[LoNdOn]

Yeah, that wasn't Sin Cara, that was Hunico under the mask this week on Smackdown.

[djthefunkchris]

How exactly is it outlandish?

 

I've had the same home phone for close to 16 years. If you take good enough care, and nothing of epic proportion happens to render cell phones useless? Sure, it could happen. Even if one breaks, you can always go buy another to be an instant replacement of the same value.

 

There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.

 

I remember when a certain promotion took ALL of their top guys, and it hurt them. The thing is, they KNOW how to create stars, where other's have failed. It's important to realise it. The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Kane, Cena, etc. These are people that WWE made into huge stars... Sure a few of them had been around the block a while, and were famous from other promotions, but they never reached the popularity WWF/E produced for them.

 

IF Cena was to be hurt and had to retire tomorrow, CM Punk, Miz, Sheamus and other's are right there. They might not sell like Cena, but then again, I don't think you can count on that kind of thing. Where did I read... Wasn't it only Austin that actually sold as much or more merchandise then Cena? So you can't hope to fill those shoe's as if it's a given. Hopefully someone will come along someday that can, but it's not something I would ever count on if I were them.

 

I don't think they would hurt nearly as bad as your letting on, if Cena was to have to stop. They have other's that can step up, and other's that have been there all along that could potentially step to the plate again, to include HHH.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wait so Cena sucks because he can have a career ending injury?

 

So who else deserves his spot? Anybody can get injured.

[djthefunkchris]

Wait so Cena sucks because he can have a career ending injury?

 

So who else deserves his spot? Anybody can get injured.

 

Arrows has and probably always will boldly say whatever comes accross his mind, and I kind of like that about him... You know where he stands...

 

With that said, I believe this comment by you is taking his statement out of context. I took what he said bassically totally differently. To me he was just saying that they've invested so much into Cena that they would be left with nothing if something happened to Cena. I don't necessarily agree.

 

Howerver, this statement,

There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.

I totally agree with, but for different reasons.