The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[bigtplaystew]

Why on earth are they pushing Khali?

 

And I know they want to push Brodus Clay, but having Ziggler and Swagger lose to a comedy team like that... meh. I thought they were aiming to get Ziggler a main event push.

 

Agreed. Khali is a guy who I don't particularly enjoy watching either. Big Show and him as a team could work for a little while, but if it turns into a long feud between them I'm not interested.

 

Ziggler is awesome.

[bigtplaystew]

In my opinion credibility is lost when someone thinks Rock and Cena can work a good match but Tensai is a terrible wrestler?

 

Well then my credibility is shot in your eyes then. I'm sad now :-(

 

I think american fans of japanese wrestling put it in a bit too high of a regard. The prestige and the mystique of it seem like a bigger deal than it is to most americans I think. Whatever.

 

I'm an adult wrestling fan who has been watching for years. I know when I'm watching a slow dude throw people around or when I'm watching two top draws perform a dramatic and thrilling match.

 

When Lord Tensai headlines one of the biggest wrestling PPVs in history I'll consider him on Rock and Cena's level I guess.

[soxfan93]

Well then my credibility is shot in your eyes then. I'm sad now :-(

 

I think american fans of japanese wrestling put it in a bit too high of a regard. The prestige and the mystique of it seem like a bigger deal than it is to most americans I think. Whatever.

 

I'm an adult wrestling fan who has been watching for years. I know when I'm watching a slow dude throw people around or when I'm watching two top draws perform a dramatic and thrilling match.

 

When Lord Tensai headlines one of the biggest wrestling PPVs in history I'll consider him on Rock and Cena's level I guess.

 

Nobody said he was on their level popularity-wise. Obviously, he's not. Rock is a global icon, and John Cena is the biggest name in world today. Those guys are perfect for WWE, where talent takes a backseat to God knows what. However, talent-wise, as in actual wrestling ability, Matt Bloom is as good as, if not better than, both Rock and Cena. That can't be denied by anybody who has any real knowledge of wrestling.

 

To be fair, I do believe that Cena's in-ring ability is vastly underrated by the IWC. However, he still isn't close to Bloom.

[bigtplaystew]

Well I'll reiterate, I have never seen a Matt Bloom match that was on par with the quality of match I saw between Cena and the Rock. Keep in mind I'm not now or have I ever really been dogging the guys Japanese work as I've now admitted several times I'm not the world's formost expert in japanese wrestling. I'm talking about the crap I have to watch on Raw each week. His work on Raw has been crap. He looks out of place to among WWE's talent. It honestly reminds of of goldberg.

 

Is that due to my own lack of knowledge of wrestling? Possibly. It would be the definition of arrogance to assume that I can't be wrong. But you guys are talking about Matt Bloom like he's one of the greatest in-ring performers in the world, which is probably over rating him a bit. Especially since I didn't see anyone saying anything like that before he came back to WWE.

[soxfan93]

Were you only reading the WWE thread? Most IWC members know of the success he had in NJPW teaming with Karl Anderson as Bad Intentions. If it wasn't being talked about in this thread, that's simply because it didn't belong in here.

 

As for the Rock/Cena match, honestly it bored me. It was a better match than Rock/Hogan, obviously, but I felt that the quality of the match itself was a complete letdown after the year-plus buildup.

[bigtplaystew]

And now we're talking apples and oranges. As a huge ROH fan I honestly don't discuss it with people anymore because your typical ROH fan's idea of an amazing match is the blow-the-doors-down, all out crazy moves type of a match.

 

Your typical WWE fan tends to prefer a brilliant story being told in the ring.

 

So if we're talking about brilliant storytelling, certainly havent seen that from Tensai... yet. I thought the Rock and Cena was brilliant storytelling. It certainly got over huge with the crowd in the arena. No denying that.

[Hive]

I thought the Rock and Cena was brilliant storytelling. It certainly got over huge with the crowd in the arena. No denying that.

 

As much as I hate agreeing with bigplaystew, I too think Rock vs. Cena was a great match due to storytelling and prestige. Not quite as good as CM Punk vs. Cena at MiTB last year, but still really good. Good wrestling to me is more than just athleticism and impressive moves, it's about storytelling.

[Arrows]

As much as I hate agreeing with bigplaystew, I too think Rock vs. Cena was a great match due to storytelling and prestige. Not quite as good as CM Punk vs. Cena at MiTB last year, but still really good. Good wrestling to me is more than just athleticism and impressive moves, it's about storytelling.

 

For being the "MOST IMPORTANT MATCH EVARS~!, Brock/Cena's already over shadowed it entirely. Rock/Cena was nothing amazing. It didn't even come close to Rock/Hogan in the ring, and that's laughable. Toss on an entire year of utter crap build up, and 'eh.

[soxfan93]

As much as I hate agreeing with bigplaystew, I too think Rock vs. Cena was a great match due to storytelling and prestige. Not quite as good as CM Punk vs. Cena at MiTB last year, but still really good. Good wrestling to me is more than just athleticism and impressive moves, it's about storytelling.

 

Obviously wrestling is about storytelling. And that aspect was great. But it's also about wrestling. Sadly, this match didn't live up to the hype, and I was very disappointed.

[Hive]

For being the "MOST IMPORTANT MATCH EVARS~!, Brock/Cena's already over shadowed it entirely. Rock/Cena was nothing amazing. It didn't even come close to Rock/Hogan in the ring, and that's laughable. Toss on an entire year of utter crap build up, and 'eh.

 

They messed up the build by making it too long and allowing it to run out of steam and get too repetitive. Had the built been 3-6 months instead, I think people would have been much more fired up about the feud.

 

I personally was a lot more entertained by The Rock vs. Cena than by CM Punk vs. Jericho. Which surprised myself, to be honest.

[bigtplaystew]

Obviously wrestling is about storytelling. And that aspect was great. But it's also about wrestling. Sadly, this match didn't live up to the hype, and I was very disappointed.

 

Again though, apples and oranges. I certainly don't think I'm less of a wrestling fan because I happen to enjoy big WWE angles that pay off. I felt Cena/Rock was a decent pay off from a dramatic standpoint. And as far as wrestling goes, can we all stop trying to act like it's this abstract art that only YOU get? Cena and Rock was a good wrestling match all around.

 

As far as Matt Bloom goes, I've been watching the dude wrestle for weeks now (aand was a fan in the attitude era) and he's done NOTHING that is far beyond the capacity of a guy like Rock or Cena. You can go the snob route and say "well you havent seen enough of his japanese matches" but then I go your typical american route and say that the guy has had an opportunity to show off these so-called amazing wrestling skills and flat out hasn't. Yet.

[soxfan93]

Again though, apples and oranges. I certainly don't think I'm less of a wrestling fan because I happen to enjoy big WWE angles that pay off. I felt Cena/Rock was a decent pay off from a dramatic standpoint. And as far as wrestling goes, can we all stop trying to act like it's this abstract art that only YOU get? Cena and Rock was a good wrestling match all around.

 

I guess if "decent" is all you want from the main event of the biggest event of the year that was built up for an entire year, than yeah, they did a damn good job.

 

I'll agree that it was "good" all-around. That's certainly not what you want from a WrestleMania main event, though.

 

As far as Matt Bloom goes, I've been watching the dude wrestle for weeks now (aand was a fan in the attitude era) and he's done NOTHING that is far beyond the capacity of a guy like Rock or Cena. You can go the snob route and say "well you havent seen enough of his japanese matches" but then I go your typical american route and say that the guy has had an opportunity to show off these so-called amazing wrestling skills and flat out hasn't. Yet.

 

You keep talking about apples and oranges, yet you keep trying to compare them, yourself. He can't have the type of matches that he had in Japan here in WWE. Nobody else can wrestle that style, so he has to adapt (i.e. water himself down) to the WWE style. That's not being a "snob", that's stating facts. Look at Danielson matches in WWE vs. his classics in ROH. Look at Punk's matches in WWE vs. his entire ROH Championship run in Summer 2006. It's the exact same way with Bloom.

[juggaloninjalee]

Double Post

[Bull]

Obviously wrestling is about storytelling. And that aspect was great. But it's also about wrestling. Sadly, this match didn't live up to the hype, and I was very disappointed.

 

I don't necessarily agree with you about it living up to the hype, but only because I never looked at it as WWE hyping up Rock vs. Cena to be a spectacular 5 star match. I saw it as a match between the two biggest stars of two different eras, and I think that in itself is what sold the match to the fans. I wouldn't think many internet fans would look at a match between The Rock and John Cena and expect it to be outstanding, regardless of the event or the hype. Mostly based on how the vast majority of them feel about the latter competitor.

[juggaloninjalee]

Well I'll reiterate, I have never seen a Matt Bloom match that was on par with the quality of match I saw between Cena and the Rock. Keep in mind I'm not now or have I ever really been dogging the guys Japanese work as I've now admitted several times I'm not the world's formost expert in japanese wrestling. I'm talking about the crap I have to watch on Raw each week. His work on Raw has been crap. He looks out of place to among WWE's talent. It honestly reminds of of goldberg.

 

Is that due to my own lack of knowledge of wrestling? Possibly. It would be the definition of arrogance to assume that I can't be wrong. But you guys are talking about Matt Bloom like he's one of the greatest in-ring performers in the world, which is probably over rating him a bit. Especially since I didn't see anyone saying anything like that before he came back to WWE.

 

So you have seen what 4 of Matt Blooms matches in the last 8 years? 2 of which were squashes on television and the other 2 were just television matches too. WWE doesn't usually put PPV quality matches on RAW or SD.

 

I am not saying Matt Bloom is one of the best ever or anything even close to that. Just saying give him a chance because the guy is talented in the ring.

 

As for Rock vs Cena the story told was fine at Mania but I could blatantly see them talking thru spots and not even trying to cover up their mouths or anything. That sort of stuff drives me nuts. On top of that the rest holds were not even strategically placed well in that match. When you are in a rest hold and not doing the basics such as hiding your mouth while you talk about the next few spots you are not a good wrestler. Rock was the worse of the 2 obviously. Cena did a better job.

 

I like Rock and Cena from a promo stand point but that is where it ends pretty much. Cena is very underrated when it comes to his in ring work but he isn't great by any means.

[bigtplaystew]

I don't necessarily agree with you about it living up to the hype, but only because I never looked at it as WWE hyping up Rock vs. Cena to be a spectacular 5 star match. I saw it as a match between the two biggest stars of two different eras, and I think that in itself is what sold the match to the fans. I wouldn't think many internet fans would look at a match between The Rock and John Cena and expect it to be outstanding, regardless of the event or the hype. Mostly based on how the vast majority of them feel about the latter competitor.

 

Exactly, I had expectations and it delivered on that level. Just trying not to overblow it. Unfortunately we on the internet only see things in black and white. We have a hard time with Grey.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I expected by far and large for Rock/Cena not to be a masterpiece, especially as one of Cena's strengths in the ring is playing to his opponent's chemistry. He can have a great match with guys like Batista, Orton and Bobby Lashley, whether his opponent is something to shout about in the ring or not. But how the heck are you gonna do that with a touring movie star? there's next to no way. No wonder they were talking through spots openly and stuff.

 

Not his fault that Cole is touting him as this international Superstar who was unstoppable. Probably the writers fault more than anything.

 

And having him go over Cena as well...

 

I'm in the same camp as bigplaystew, Lord Tensai just doesn't do it for me - without being insulting, if I didn't know any better I'd just see him as a fat bumbling goof with awkward taunts in the ring. I have those same friends who think Jeff Hardy is the bee's knees and Jericho/Bryan are boring, but then again it's still not as big a gap as between a WWE worker and this Japanese style. Now that said, I'm not against him having a push. Just him going over Cena this early surprised me, with the barricade of heels waiting in the wings right now... if anything, I would've even picked Ryback to go over Cena. Barring any shenanigans, I'm sure that guy will go far in the business with that look of his and a certifiable gimmick to go with it. But I don't wanna delve into the "I would've"s and the "they should"s.

[Hive]

I had to see what all the fuzz was all about, so youtubed Tensai's matches... and again, I'm so very sad to have to agree with bigplaystew... but the guy really does not appear to be anything special; his gimmick is dumber than Brodus Clay's, his matches consist of the 3-4 same moves every time and he most certainly did not deserve a win against Cena so soon.

 

Sure, he may show more of himself as he gets more ringtime, but as long as his dumb gimmick and stupid manneurisms stay the same, I'll never get behind him.

 

He's slightly more interesting than Khali though, I guess that's at least something.

[juggaloninjalee]

I had to see what all the fuzz was all about, so youtubed Tensai's matches... and again, I'm so very sad to have to agree with bigplaystew... but the guy really does not appear to be anything special; his gimmick is dumber than Brodus Clay's, his matches consist of the 3-4 same moves every time and he most certainly did not deserve a win against Cena so soon.

 

Sure, he may show more of himself as he gets more ringtime, but as long as his dumb gimmick and stupid manneurisms stay the same, I'll never get behind him.

 

He's slightly more interesting than Khali though, I guess that's at least something.

 

Hive I like you so don't take this wrong but Sting isn't known for his huge move set either and last I checked you were a really big Sting fan.

 

He may just not be it for you guys and that is ok. I like him and am happy he is in WWE. Others may not be a fan of his. We are allowed to think differently.

[Nathers7]

I'm just annoyed that they aren't investing creatively on Raw in the heels they already have. I'd much rather they pushed Ziggler than a guy who flat out can't work the WWE style. The only thing Tensai has over the current heels on Raw is that they've bothered to give him a push.

[Hive]

Hive I like you so don't take this wrong but Sting isn't known for his huge move set either and last I checked you were a really big Sting fan.

 

Sting has heaps of charisma and a much better gimmick, though. Both of Sting's big gimmicks blast this one away.

 

And when in his hayday, he hed a pretty good athleticism. But yeah, I know he wasn't exactly ever a Bret Hart or Kurt Angle.

 

He may just not be it for you guys and that is ok. I like him and am happy he is in WWE. Others may not be a fan of his. We are allowed to think differently.

 

Well of course, that's the beauty of wrestling. Everyone is allowed their own opinions, and it would be boring if we all liked and hated the same guys. I didn't mean to offend people who like him, I just explained why he isn't for me.

 

I personally always had a fondness for Batista, another big guy who didn't exactly have the technnical wrestling knowledge of Dean Malenko. I can appreciate a big guy with a limited skill set, given the right gimmick and storyline(s) - and a wee bit of charisma. It's just that WWE's presentation of Bloom currently does nothing for me.

 

(And yes, I am aware that most people here would probably rate Bloom/Tensai far higher on their list than Batista )

[Hive]

I'm just annoyed that they aren't investing creatively on Raw in the heels they already have. I'd much rather they pushed Ziggler than a guy who flat out can't work the WWE style. The only thing Tensai has over the current heels on Raw is that they've bothered to give him a push.

 

Agreed. They have far better talent already that just needs a creative gimmick so they can get over. I personally see Ziggler as someone who could thrive under a modern Mr. Perfect gimmick. Have him run with that for a while, then at some point have a (hopefully more mature) Joe Hennig feud with him over the name. BANG! Gold, right there.

 

On Bloom/Tensai... it's not that I have anything against a Japanese guy coming in to do the classic Great Muta stuff with green mist and stuff... it's just that I would rather see a smaller, talented Japanese guy do it. The mist thing, to me, is something that should be used by the sneaky and/or cowardly heels who can't get by on brute force... but given that they are booking Tensai as a big and powerful brute, I think it's a weird mix.

[djthefunkchris]

@Remi: It's happening, no matter if they should be doing it or not. The reaction's with Cena all night on RAW is screaming it to me. If you can't get these kind of gimmicks, I can understand why you might not want to watch WWE.

 

On topic:

 

I don't mind Tensai at all to be honest... Then again I don't mind a few other's people mind.

 

There's like this certain, I don't know... sarcasm that lies around here and I don't really get it. You guys should know that almost everything is available via youtube, etc. We can watch all that stuff, and I'm not much unlike Self, outside of the things we actually enjoy... Meaning, I check out NJPW and ROH and many other's... I will be sitting at my computer and five or six hours will roll by as I do so, just watching everything I can find. I'm 100% sure I'm not the only one like that. With all that said, I'm going to say how I see alot of this. One point I'd like to mention though, is that Hulk Hogan was over there for like five years, and if your into that, check him out. Moved a lot better then Albert in my opinion (for those talking about big guys moving well).

 

Most of the Japanese programming I've been able to catch (mostly on YouTube admit-tingly), feels "old school" to me. Like USA 50+ years ago, maybe more, if you ignore the high flying. Lucha feels almost the same as us... only more spotty, perhaps evolving faster slightly then US wrestling. Less talking in both for the most part. Far as looking at all these smaller promotions in the US though, to me... They aren't all that different. They seem to all have some sort of gimmick they are trying to fit into it, but it all feels the same as the rest. ROH I can't get into lately, but watching their older stuff I love it. The biggest difference I feel to the indie's and ROH etc, is their willingness to go a bit overboard. I feel that quite a bit of the indie stuff is actually quite dangerous. Perhaps that's the appeal? I don't quite get most of it, as I would rather watch... Chikara I think was the name, fun and more fun there. This is coming from someone that was more of an ECW fan because of the heartfelt (I felt anyways) promo's, rather then the all out extreme match's.

 

Tensai/Albert or whatever you want to call him, to me is no more special then Brodus, Khali, etc. They have a noticeable gimmick for him, working on something I feel will catch on with the IWC crowd more so then general fans. I'm with the other's in that he hasn't done anything special at all, and again, I feel like I'm watching a show made years ago when he comes on. Not really a bad thing to me. I enjoyed the "Mist" stuff back then, and I enjoy it now as well. However, you have to admit he looks clumsy, or your completely ignoring him. When he gets up, it's more of a crawl up... They need to keep him off the mat. There's things wrong there.

 

For those that idolize Japan wrestling, that's fine. It's actually a good thing, as I said it reminds me of "Old School" wrestling, from right here in the USA (Pre-80's for sure). The biggest thing I ever hear come out of people's mouths about WWE and TNA, etc, is "Alright already, Get on with the match!" "Shut up and wrestle!" etc. That's been my complaint for well... ever. So it's very understandable to me, why people would think of NJPW as superior in wrestling quality, or in ring work, or whatever the kids are calling pre-determined match's today. Dropping people on heads wasn't the smartest thing, but hey... Too each their own, right?

[alden]

here is a great example of wrestlers turning down the style in america.....

 

Who changed wrestling most in recent memory....but has always been described as a "bad wrester"......hulk hogan.....He changed wrestling in the late 80's.......he had a move set of get destroyed......hulk up.....punch...point.....slam....leg drop.....that was pretty much it....

 

but if you look at his matches from japan at the same time period.....shocking hogan could actuly wrestle.....he was not great but he could put on a decent wrestling match.

[milamber]

Agreed. Khali is a guy who I don't particularly enjoy watching either. Big Show and him as a team could work for a little while, but if it turns into a long feud between them I'm not interested.

 

Ziggler is awesome.

 

I still think Ziggler has main event potential. He's still young so I'm not worried. Miz has to move to SD. He's got nowhere to go on Raw (that's why he's being shoehorned into a US title match).

 

Actually, Khali was okay on Raw. I don't mind his partnership with Show. And he added to his moveset by chopping Codey's knees instead of his head. Still a bad wrestler, though.

 

Tensai is pretty good for a big man. At least they let him steamroll his opppenents like a legit monster (much more menacing than Henry who struggles to beat faces every other match). It remains to be seen if he can do it for more than 15 minutes in a main event PPV match.

 

I think you guys expect too much from Wrestlemania. To me it's about the hype, the grandeur and the big stars colliding, not the quality. If I want to see quality WWE wrestling there's plenty of other PPVs that will deliever better than WM.