Official NFL Discussion Thread

[GatorBait19]

OK..one..are you guys reading the same article? I feel like you're not. Because we're referencing a piece that contains about 20 quotes from people in the league that all said it was harder to succeed in the NFL.

Look..I'll give you examples:

 

"I go with the idea that if you can coach, you can coach at any level," Green says. "But I do think a guy coming into the pro game without any experience as a pro assistant has a more difficult time."

 

"I gave this advice to Butch when he was thinking of going to Cleveland," Johnson says. "'Don't count on having the same success in Cleveland that we had in Dallas. Things fell right for us. You can stay at Miami, you probably won't make as much money and you may not satisfy your ego, but you can win 10 or 11 games a year and have a family life. Don't count on any of those things if you go to Cleveland.'

 

 

 

Again..I'm going to go ahead and trust with the articles I've read in countless sports magazines, the bios I've read, the interviews I've heard etc.

 

Here's some more stuff from Jimmy Johnson (since apparently you've never heard him say this kind of thing before):

 

Still, Johnson was surprised at how small the margin for error was once he was hired by the Cowboys. "You can be sloppy in college and still win," says Johnson, who made the transition better than anyone. "You can't in pro."

 

"It's a long season with no easy weeks," Johnson says. "It can wear on you, and it's hard to keep your guys up. In college, you point for certain weeks. In the pros, you have to be steady."

 

Yes.

 

Because every single person in the business of football who's done both has said so.

 

The second bold is when you said Yes it was harder to coach in the NFL. The first bold is talking about how it's harder to be a success.

 

I agree with Candyman that it just different ways of life. The roster turnover in college is far worse than NFL, you are only sure of 3 years. You have to follow strict rules (far mor strict then the NFL's) to make sure probation isn't given.

 

I think both OT's are flawed, but I do like the fact that a coin flip doesn't decide the whole game. I believe the perfect OT system would be NFL's mixed with college. Kick it off, first team to score is in the lead. Then the next team has one drive to catch up (I believe that's kind of what they are changing it to).

 

Also Green was another one of those pro coaches who sucked in college.

[PeterHilton]

Wait a second... so you don't like to see scoring in football, huh? You think college OT is a joke and you dislike it because more points are scored? I like seeing TDs and awesome offensive/defensive plays. College OT is one of the most exciting ways to end a tie. I've never seen a college OT that I didn't enjoy.

 

Any examples of college games turning into 120 point shootouts?

 

I didn't say he was a great coach or a defense genius. I just think your prediction is way out out in left field when we haven't even seen one game yet. Do I think they're going to the Super Bowl? No. Do I think they have a legitimate chance to be a contender in the NFC West? Yes, I do.

 

I don't like it because it turns a football game played under specific rules into some kind of mini-game passing drill you'd find in Madden. Both teams should get the ball..but under normal football circumstances. That's it.

 

And again..how is it 'out in left field' based on the track record of college coaches? How? Based on years of history, what's more likely..that he flames out or that he succeeds and goes to the playoffs this year?

 

Hell..name the last college coach that went o the NFL and even kept their job longer than three seasons.

[PeterHilton]

The second bold is when you said Yes it was harder to coach in the NFL. The first bold is talking about how it's harder to be a success.

 

You're nitpicking. Seriously. Did I have to be that specific for you? By 'harder to coach' did you think I wasn't alluding to the idea that it was harder to coach and actually succeed?

 

Again..YOU posted that article. That thing doesn't say it's "different" it says it's harder.

 

I think both OT's are flawed, but I do like the fact that a coin flip doesn't decide the whole game. I believe the perfect OT system would be NFL's mixed with college. Kick it off, first team to score is in the lead. Then the next team has one drive to catch up (I believe that's kind of what they are changing it to).

 

Yes.

 

Also Green was another one of those pro coaches who sucked in college.

 

You're naming individual exceptions. They are still exceptions.

[LoganRodzen]

I don't like it because it turns a football game played under specific rules into some kind of mini-game passing drill you'd find in Madden. Both teams should get the ball..but under normal football circumstances. That's it.

 

And again..how is it 'out in left field' based on the track record of college coaches? How? Based on years of history, what's more likely..that he flames out or that he succeeds and goes to the playoffs this year?

 

Hell..name the last college coach that went o the NFL and even kept their job longer than three seasons.

 

Tom Coughlin... though he had been in the NFL and then went back to BC before going back to the NFL. I guess it doesn't count, but he was still a college coach longer than he had been in the NFL.

 

By the way, I said it was "way out in left field"... at least quote me correctly.

[GatorBait19]

"I go with the idea that if you can coach, you can coach at any level," Green says. "But I do think a guy coming into the pro game without any experience as a pro assistant has a more difficult time."

 

"So much more preparation goes into the coaching in the NFL," says former Patriots defensive back Tim Fox, now the club's postgame radio host. "The game is much more complex.

 

The second quote was a player who's never been a coach.

 

No where in that article I read a coach say the NFL is harder than College. Their been thing was it's different. Now, they did say that they had to put more time in and be on point.

 

Like I said though, they are two different levels. College you can only do some much time wise. NFL you have all day, so I think the real answer is, you can be successful in NFL as long as you put the time into it.

[lazorbeak]

And I like watching football where the best team wins, not the team that makes the right call on a coin toss. To each their own.

 

Fun fact: from 2001 to 2007, the team that won the coin toss won 60% of the time. The team that won the opening coin toss won 50% of the time. You still have to play the game.

 

You mean the coin toss? I guess that's dramatic...other than that, it doesn't come close to the excitement of college football - which, I don't care what anybody says - is every bit as real football as the NFL's sudden death nonsense.. Trying to win a coin toss, hit a big pass or two, run the ball up the middle a couple times, and kick a field goal...that is NOT football. At least in college football, you're trying to score.

 

Yes, the tension and drama of watching a team score, then the other team score, and then repeating the entire process as many times as it takes. Oh the drama!

 

In the NFL, you are one play away from losing at all times. One fumble, one interception, one broken tackle one slip on the turf from the game being over. The NCAA's nancy-boy "everyone gets a turn" doesn't compare to the big-game excitement created by overtime in the NFL.

 

 

How is it a joke? You end up playing continuous OT until there's a winner. In the NFL we get maybe a few good passes and a FG for the win - the losing team feels screwed because they may or may not have had an opportunity to score. In college everyone has a chance and the defense has to play harder than they have the entire game. When you start at the 25 yard line and have to score within the Red Zone - where defenses play their BEST - how is that a joke? Please elaborate.

 

It's a joke because 1) there is no tension that the next play could be the last, and 2) because it creates an equally unfair advantage for the team going second. You're not playing against the clock, and you're not playing real football, you're playing a glorified penalty kick contest.

 

Wait a second... so you don't like to see scoring in football, huh? You think college OT is a joke and you dislike it because more points are scored? I like seeing TDs and awesome offensive/defensive plays. College OT is one of the most exciting ways to end a tie. I've never seen a college OT that I didn't enjoy.

 

I've never seen a College OT that equaled the drama of a sudden death OT. "Okay, you scored. Now go over there and let the other team have a turn." And counting OT stats towards overall stats just pads guys' numbers.

 

Are you high? I referenced what the article said. Christ, it's YOUR post. Read it.

 

It says that it's harder to coach and succeed in the NFL.

 

Welcome to my world.

[GatorBait19]

Tom Coughlin

 

By the way, I said it was "way out in left field"... at least quote me correctly.

 

Dennis Green, Jimmie Johnson, Barry Switzer, Steve Mariucci, Jim Cadwell (Wake Forest), Dennis Erickson

 

Can we really put Saban as a failure, I have always wondered that. He left to go back to College but the Dolphins wanted him to stay?

[GatorBait19]

Okay beak I'll bite. If the NFL's OT is so great.... cough...... why are they changing it again?

 

I mean you should be in the owners meetings fighting for the current OT system. Hell, we even have QB's in the league who don't understand OT themselves.

[LoganRodzen]

In the NFL, you are one play away from losing at all times. One fumble, one interception, one broken tackle one slip on the turf from the game being over. The NCAA's nancy-boy "everyone gets a turn" doesn't compare to the big-game excitement created by overtime in the NFL.

 

It's a joke because 1) there is no tension that the next play could be the last, and 2) because it creates an equally unfair advantage for the team going second. You're not playing against the clock, and you're not playing real football, you're playing a glorified penalty kick contest.

 

I've never seen a College OT that equaled the drama of a sudden death OT. "Okay, you scored. Now go over there and let the other team have a turn." And counting OT stats towards overall stats just pads guys' numbers.

 

And in college OT you're not one play away from losing it all? An INT or fumble gives the other team the ball and they can kick a FG and win it. At least the losing team had the opportunity to do something. Strategy plays a big part into college OT. The team going second has an unfair advantage? The team who wins the coin toss in the NFL has an unfair advantage.

 

What is "real football" to you? I always thought it was on a football field with 22 guys who had pads and helmets on who are tearing each other apart. College OT sure looks like football to me.

 

Glorified penalty kick contest? Give me a break. That's ridiculous.

[PeterHilton]

No where in that article I read a coach say the NFL is harder than College. Their been thing was it's different. Now, they did say that they had to put more time in and be on point.

 

Ohhh....somehow i misconstrued more time and more attention as meaning 'harder' My bad

 

Again..."I gave this advice to Butch when he was thinking of going to Cleveland," Johnson says. "'Don't count on having the same success in Cleveland that we had in Dallas. Things fell right for us. You can stay at Miami, you probably won't make as much money and you may not satisfy your ego, but you can win 10 or 11 games a year and have a family life. Don't count on any of those things if you go to Cleveland.'

 

That - to me - sounds like he's saying it was harder.

[GatorBait19]

You're nitpicking. Seriously. Did I have to be that specific for you? By 'harder to coach' did you think I wasn't alluding to the idea that it was harder to coach and actually succeed?

 

Again..YOU posted that article. That thing doesn't say it's "different" it says it's harder.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

You're naming individual exceptions. They are still exceptions.

 

 

So then why not say, for some it's harder to be a coach in the NFL then it is college (Steve S., Saban, Erickson, Carroll). While for others the pro game makes it harder to be successful in college (Green, Brooks, Weis, Tyrone Willingham RB coach for Vikes)

[GatorBait19]

Ohhh....somehow i misconstrued more time and more attention as meaning 'harder' My bad

 

Again..."I gave this advice to Butch when he was thinking of going to Cleveland," Johnson says. "'Don't count on having the same success in Cleveland that we had in Dallas. Things fell right for us. You can stay at Miami, you probably won't make as much money and you may not satisfy your ego, but you can win 10 or 11 games a year and have a family life. Don't count on any of those things if you go to Cleveland.'

 

That - to me - sounds like he's saying it was harder.

 

That to me also sounds like you'll have to work more and not see your family. Seriously as I read that it (IMHO) comes to "hey, you can have the family life and win or not have the family life in order to win" but once again I must be high

[LoganRodzen]

That to me also sounds like you'll have to work more and not see your family. Seriously as I read that it (IMHO) comes to "hey, you can have the family life and win or not have the family life in order to win" but once again I must be high

 

Don't worry, buddy. You're not the only one.

[GatorBait19]

See this all started off as an opinion for a couple of guys. I have never understood why this board has such a hard time with opinions. Not everyone is going to agree, some need to learn to agree to disagree.

[PeterHilton]

Dennis Green, Jimmie Johnson, Barry Switzer, Steve Mariucci, Jim Cadwell (Wake Forest), Dennis Erickson

 

Can we really put Saban as a failure, I have always wondered that. He left to go back to College but the Dolphins wanted him to stay?

 

Mooch? Really? He was out of the NFL for like 5 minutes.

Jim Caldwell? He's been on the Colts staff since 01

 

And again..you're throwing out exceptions when I could list 20 more failures. It's a prevailing trend.

 

And yes..Saban quit. SO he failed.

[lazorbeak]

And in college OT you're not one play away from losing it all? An INT or fumble gives the other team the ball and they can kick a FG and win it.

 

Do you know what "one play" means? It means one play. Giving the other team the ball and the chance to score doesn't end the game. Hence not "one play."

 

At least the losing team had the opportunity to do something. Strategy plays a big part into college OT. The team going second has an unfair advantage? The team who wins the coin toss in the NFL has an unfair advantage.

 

Yes. This is what I posted. I am glad we agree!

 

The team that wins the toss and chooses defense wins 52% of the time in the NCAA.

 

What is "real football" to you? I always thought it was on a football field with 22 guys who had pads and helmets on who are tearing each other apart. College OT sure looks like football to me.

 

"Real football" has things like "game clocks" and "change of possession" that affect strategy. Also it has these things called "kick offs" and "punts."

 

Glorified penalty kick contest? Give me a break. That's ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry but that's EXACTLY what it is. It's a simulacrum of how the game is played where you just start at a fixed point and take turns seeing which team can do better in an arbitrary scenario until one team wins. That's what penalty kicks are, that's what the Kansas OT rules are.

 

Gator... if the OT rules in the NFL are so bad, why are they still making them play real football the whole time? Why not just give everyone a chance? Under the new rules, if you give up a big play TD, you lose. It's not true sudden death but it attempts to correct an imbalance while retaining the sudden death aspect which is the best part of NFL overtime.

[GatorBait19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mariucci#Coaching_career_in_professional_football

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Caldwell_(American_football)#College

 

Started in college along with Caldwell

 

 

you asked for college coaches who lasted longer than 3 years. Now Caldwell hasn't done three yet, but do you really expect him to get fired?

 

Honestly those two plus Swizter prove that with the right players you can be successful in the NFL.

 

Many of the coaches who failed in the NFL (from college) went to horrible teams that they were going to have to rebuild. How long does it take a college program to rebuild? Bama it took a long time, Miami four years and counting (yes they are much better, this year will define Shannon's progress)

 

Butch Davis went into one of the worst situations and still manged a playoff game. He resigned and stayed away for 2 years so he could spend time with his family.

[lazorbeak]

That to me also sounds like you'll have to work more and not see your family. Seriously as I read that it (IMHO) comes to "hey, you can have the family life and win or not have the family life in order to win" but once again I must be high

 

Yes, that is what he literally said. But see this is where having reading comprehension pays off. What the quote means is that you can afford to take things easier and not sweat every game as a college coach. If I'm the coach of UT, I've got A&M circled, I've got OU circled, and then I have 10 other games, at least 6 of which will be against teams that stand literally zero chance to beat me. you cannot do that in the pros because it is harder.

 

See this all started off as an opinion for a couple of guys. I have never understood why this board has such a hard time with opinions. Not everyone is going to agree, some need to learn to agree to disagree.

 

As has been told to you repeatedly having an opinion unsupported by evidence is not equal to a valid conclusion based on factual evidence.

 

Certain people on this board need to realize that when the books say the sky is blue, and everyone else keeps telling you the sky is blue, you can't say "IMO the sky is yellow" and expect it to be treated with equal regard by anyone.

[LoganRodzen]

Do you know what "one play" means? It means one play. Giving the other team the ball and the chance to score doesn't end the game. Hence not "one play."

 

Yes. This is what I posted. I am glad we agree!

 

The team that wins the toss and chooses defense wins 52% of the time in the NCAA.

 

"Real football" has things like "game clocks" and "change of possession" that affect strategy. Also it has these things called "kick offs" and "punts.

 

I'm sorry but that's EXACTLY what it is. It's a simulacrum of how the game is played where you just start at a fixed point and take turns seeing which team can do better in an arbitrary scenario until one team wins. That's what penalty kicks are, that's what the Kansas OT rules are.

 

Gator... if the OT rules in the NFL are so bad, why are they still making them play real football the whole time? Why not just give everyone a chance? Under the new rules, if you give up a big play TD, you lose. It's not true sudden death but it attempts to correct an imbalance while retaining the sudden death aspect which is the best part of NFL overtime.

 

Indeed I know what one play is. It took just one play for me to screw my back up for the rest of my life - see spondylolisthesis. I had to get back surgery (spinal fusion) my junior year of high school because of it. I'd rather not be lectured on "what football is" - I played it for enough years to understand it. Thanks.

 

At first I didn't get what you meant by "glorified penalty kick". You were making a reference to a sport (soccer) that has absolutely no purpose in an American football thread.

 

I look at college OT more like the NHL shootout - it goes until there's a winner, no ties. That's a problem I had with the NFL OT because even though it maybe only happened once a year... there's always a chance for a tie. And there shouldn't be any ties in the game of football.

[lazorbeak]

Found a good article here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/NFL-owners-pass-overtime-reform-Should-the-NCAA?urn=ncaaf,229793

 

 

By beginning those opportunities at the opponents' 25-yard line, though, it set itself up for the opposite problem: Scoring -- and responding to scores -- is too easy. Granting alternating possessions with the ball already in scoring position is an inherent bias against strong defensive teams that thrive on winning field position, and also means games can drag on forever as offenses light up the scoreboard thanks to the short field, or else play conservatively to guarantee at least the three points they need to stay alive. As a result, college has delivered marathon sessions with no equivalent in the NFL, namely the three seven-overtime games (between Arkansas and Ole Miss in 2001, Arkansas and Kentucky in 2003 and North Texas and Florida International in 2006) in the last decade.

 

Seriously, seven overtimes. Seven.

 

Re: not playing real football:

 

But the other, bigger problem with the college overtime system (and a strength of the NFL's format, old and new) is that it completely removes fundamental elements of the kicking game, specifically punts and kickoffs, without which the generous starting field position for the offenses resembles the game of football to about the same extent as a series of penalty kicks resembles the game of soccer. Distilling the outcome to a shot at points from inside the red zone, like distilling a match to a free shot on goal, undermines the myriad strategies and subtleties that make up the vast majority of the game.

 

(emphasis added)

 

Honestly I think the NFL's fix is a little silly. Yes, it's disheartening to lose by a field goal. Maybe your team should learn to play some defense? Who was it that when they won the coin toss elected to "win" and then proceeded to turn the ball over for a game-ending interception? You still need to play the game.

[LoganRodzen]

Found a good article here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/NFL-owners-pass-overtime-reform-Should-the-NCAA?urn=ncaaf,229793

 

Seriously, seven overtimes. Seven.

 

Re: not playing real football:

 

(emphasis added)

 

Honestly I think the NFL's fix is a little silly. Yes, it's disheartening to lose by a field goal. Maybe your team should learn to play some defense? Who was it that when they won the coin toss elected to "win" and then proceeded to turn the ball over for a game-ending interception? You still need to play the game.

 

I'll take any news I get from Yahoo with a shot of penicillin. It's all opinion. So there are examples of games going on forever because of college OT, so what? That doesn't happen every single time a game goes into OT. Most of them end by the third OT because of the 2-pt conversion rule. The way I see it... if they go on forever like that it's because the two teams were evenly matched.

[GatorBait19]

Yes, that is what he literally said. But see this is where having reading comprehension pays off. What the quote means is that you can afford to take things easier and not sweat every game as a college coach. If I'm the coach of UT, I've got A&M circled, I've got OU circled, and then I have 10 other games, at least 6 of which will be against teams that stand literally zero chance to beat me. you cannot do that in the pros because it is harder.

 

 

 

As has been told to you repeatedly having an opinion unsupported by evidence is not equal to a valid conclusion based on factual evidence.

 

Certain people on this board need to realize that when the books say the sky is blue, and everyone else keeps telling you the sky is blue, you can't say "IMO the sky is yellow" and expect it to be treated with equal regard by anyone.

 

See it's funny because you don't bring evidence today Mr. Beak. In fact that one play comment you made a minute ago made no sense.

 

Where in the hell did you get Logan's response as saying it's one play? Most educated people read that and say "hey, he's saying that it's not one play". Then they read you tirade explaining what one play is. Then agreeing with Mr. Logan's comment

 

Here's a little evidence to support the College OT. Some of the greatest games ever played in college, end in their OT system.

 

OSU vs UM (Championship game, a classic and a game most believe to be the best ever)

 

Some of those 8 overtime games where each team battles. You want to understand why college OT is a favorite (well, you'll never understand because you're just hammering away at your belief and nothing else matters.) it's because it gives both teams a fair chance to win the game.

 

Now could you give me your evidence to how NFL's system is fair............ Oh that's right you can't. Hell, if it was then they wouldn't be changing it.

 

 

Also Mr. Beak, the sky isn't just blue; it's black and red.

 

http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html

 

There are also times it does turn purple, green, and yes yellow. (but let's not confuse you in one sitting.)

 

Also the sun looks yellow to us, but in space looks white . Shocked, I know hold your applause for someone who cares.

[PeterHilton]

I look at college OT more like the NHL shootout - it goes until there's a winner, no ties. That's a problem I had with the NFL OT because even though it maybe only happened once a year... there's always a chance for a tie. And there shouldn't be any ties in the game of football.

 

This I agree with.

[lazorbeak]

Indeed I know what one play is. It took just one play for me to screw my back up for the rest of my life - see spondylolisthesis. I had to get back surgery (spinal fusion) my junior year of high school because of it. I'd rather not be lectured on "what football is" - I played it for enough years to understand it. Thanks.

 

Um, you asked? Your own explanation of the college system showed that no, the game can't end on every play. It's not just 22 guys with helmets on the field. There's game clocks and field position and special teams, and none of that is there, so no, it's not the same game.

 

The fact that you were injured or played football has very little to do with the subject at hand. Guess what? I was injured and played football too! Not at the same time though, so I guess I don't have the same argument to authority.

 

At first I didn't get what you meant by "glorified penalty kick". You were making a reference to a sport (soccer) that has absolutely no purpose in an American football thread.

 

Yeah, it was used for a comparison. Sorry, forgot that some people have absolutely no idea what sports are played in the world at large.

[jbergey_2005]

College and Pro OT both have their flaws. The best example I have heard on how to end OT is the pro system in which the first to 6 points wins.

 

I cant say I like the college system much because they are basically changing the game at the most important stage of the game by eliminating all special teams other than field goals.