The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Zoloftjunkie]

I tought he would lose to them before this fight even happened. I did just look at the UFC roster though and would put him at the top of the midcarders . Btw Kongo and Gonzaga are bottom of the barrel for w/e tried to say they were midcard. Shoot as much as I hate mir I think even he would give fedor a run for his money.

[Dustin]

Got it. I thought I was dealing with the "he lost to this guy, so that means he would lose to this other guy with a completely different style" kind of people.

 

Edit: Clearly I'm dealing with at least one of the "I believe whatever Dana tells me to believe" people.

[Dustin]

Kongo and Gonzaga are below the likes of James McSweeney, Stefan Struve or even Mike Russow? Kongo is easily mid level while Gonzaga is practically world class.

[Zoloftjunkie]

Got it. I thought I was dealing with the "he lost to this guy, so that means he would lose to this other guy with a completely different style" kind of people.

 

Edit: Clearly I'm dealing with at least one of the "I believe whatever Dana tells me to believe" people.

 

Right having an opinion that is different from yours must mean I am a mindless drone.

 

Calling Gonzaga world class is a joke right?

[Dustin]

Dana: Fedor sucks, wouldn't be top five in the UFC.

 

Zoloftjunkie: Fedor sucks, forget top five, he would actually be in the middle of the pack in the UFC.

 

At least you do him proud.

 

Practically, as in nearly. He is very good and certainly not bottom of the barrel.

[jesterx7769]

If you want to not like Fedor that is fine but one argument you cannot make is his level of competition. Who has fought better competition than him? In ANY weight class? He has beat boxers, wrestlers, jits guys, big and small.

 

Going backwards...

-Arlovski: Former UFC champ- You can't say he was a bad champ and the UFC HW division was light b/c that is who Fedor would have been fighting at the time, negating the comp argument.

 

- Sylvia: Same.

 

-Choi: beat a big man

 

-Lindland: Beat a top wrestler

 

-Hunt: top kickboxer

 

- Coleman: top wrestler, UFC accolades

 

-Mirko: who was at his prime

 

-Nog: clear top guy for years

 

- Randleman: Top wrestler

 

- Herring: TKO'd, which brock didn't do

 

-Schilt: giant kickboxer

 

- Babalu

 

those are just the popular names. So how is that not top comp? Its too late to check the facts beyond my immediate knowledge but hes beaten at least 3 UFC champs, 3 K1 champs, olympic wrestlers, 3 pride champs. Besides Couture and Lesnar who else would you have wanted him to face? I'm not even comparing him to any other fighter, just looking at his fight log is a who's who of MMA's best.

[Daffanka]

If you want to not like Fedor that is fine but one argument you cannot make is his level of competition. Who has fought better competition than him? In ANY weight class? He has beat boxers, wrestlers, jits guys, big and small.

 

yay let's do this again

 

-Arlovski: Former UFC champ- You can't say he was a bad champ and the UFC HW division was light b/c that is who Fedor would have been fighting at the time, negating the comp argument.

 

Who has since lost three in a row including being outboxed by the Brazilian golem.

 

- Sylvia: Same.

 

He's a joke. Sorry but it's true.

 

-Choi: beat a big man

 

A suicidal kickboxer who he couldn't take down.

 

-Lindland: Beat a top wrestler

 

Who is a middleweight in a fight where Fedor blatantly grabbed the ropes.

 

-Hunt: top kickboxer

 

An obese kickboxer who nearly submitted Fedor.

 

- Coleman: top wrestler, UFC accolades

 

An untrained light heavyweight wrestler who hasn't trained a day of grappling in his life.

 

-Mirko: who was at his prime

 

-Nog: clear top guy for years

 

I'll give you these, although they were five years ago.

 

- Randleman: Top wrestler

 

See notes about Coleman except I think Randleman actually trained for this fight.

 

- Herring: TKO'd, which brock didn't do

 

Won on a cut after he had totally gassed out in the first round and Herring was going to maul him in the second.

 

-Schilt: giant kickboxer

 

Schilt is a fanastic kickboxer and a bad MMA fighter.

 

- Babalu

 

205er and also in RINGS.

 

those are just the popular names. So how is that not top comp? Its too late to check the facts beyond my immediate knowledge but hes beaten at least 3 UFC champs, 3 K1 champs, olympic wrestlers, 3 pride champs. Besides Couture and Lesnar who else would you have wanted him to face? I'm not even comparing him to any other fighter, just looking at his fight log is a who's who of MMA's best.

 

In PRIDE he never fought Barnett, Kharitonov or Sapp (who was considered dangerous at the time okay) while Nogueira has taken on virtually every good HW, since and after PRIDE.

 

I'm not disputing that he was the #1 HW five years ago or even that he was before he lost to Werdum, but the only reason he gets a pass is because the heavyweight division is still by and large dreadful. Some guys who've fought and beaten much better competition recently are, in no particular order, GSP, Machida, Shogun, Edgar, BJ, Anderson, Shields, Fitch, Alves, Evans and CHAEL SONNEN, REPUBLICAN AND FUTURE UFC MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION

[brashleyholland]

 

Let's get some discussion going on it... We've talked about the Akiyama/Leben situation quite well, but I think the Lesnar/Carwin fight opens up a lot of new doors at Heavyweight, as it's not just about the UFC title anymore, but about which fighter is #1 in the world at the division. Big fight just got even bigger, imo.

 

It's a huge fight, especially following Fedor's loss. It'll be the first time in a long time that we can say "This guy is the current best HW in the world, fact".

 

For me this fight is all about answering questions, because there are a lot of questionmarks surrounding both guys.

 

- Can Brock take a punch? Conventional wisdom says yes purely based on his physical make-up, but he's never been hit so we don't know.

 

- Can Brock operate off his back? Again, you'd think so given his credentials, but until we see someone put him there and keep him there, who knows? Is Carwin the man to do it? I guess we'll find out. One other thing to note on credentials; it's been a loooong time since Brock wrestled...it's not like he's Ben Askren. Does that matter? Again, we'll see...

 

- Can Carwin last more than five minutes? He says 25 is no problem, but then he would. Until we see it in practise, we can only speculate.

 

- Can Carwin deal with Brock's wrestling? I don't know much about the tallent gap between D1 and D2 wrestlers, but I'm told it's pretty sizable. Carwin is going to have to take the innitiative against Brock, and that will leave him open for the shot...can he deal with it, or will he end up on his back getting hammered into oblivion?

 

- Is Brock healthy? I never back a guy coming of a year-plus layoff if they're in an even remotely even fight. That said, Carwin hasn't exactly been busy, and Brock's 'rookie' status means more time to train could actually benefit him. He's been training full time since Jan, FYI.

 

Here's the interesting part though...last week someone on the UG posted something about Lesnar getting hurt in training and potentially pulling out of the fight. Typical troll stuff, but apparently this guy had been on the money a couple of times before, so my boss checked it out. He put a call in to somone in Brock's camp - a sparring partner - to see if there was any truth to it.

 

Now, for full disclosure, this guy is a sparring partner, not a full time training partner, so he's not there all the time (or even most of the time) and is likely not privvy to all the inner-wrokings of the camp. It could be that he is literally brought in for two days at a time to spar, then leaves for a week etc.

 

This guy said that Brock had picked up a knock, and there was talk of pulling him out from his trainers/coaches. We also contacted Brock's manager, but the official word there was that Brock would be 100% come fight time, which isn't really a confirmation or denial. When my boss contacted the source again (the next day, I believe) he said that there was a knock, but it was "Getting better by the hour". Take that for what it's worth...

[brashleyholland]

yay let's do this again

 

 

 

 

I agree with most of your points, but at the same time, you could look at the records of other 'top' HWs and do similar things.

 

Brock: Couldn't finish Herring, who was a broken-down shell of his former self when they fought, as opposed to the #2-3 HW in the world that Fedor beat. 1-1 against Mir, a very beatable fighter. Couture, a old guy coming off a long lay-off who he outweighed by about 687lbs. Kim Min-Soo...yeah.

 

Carwin: Beat Mir and Gonzaga, two guys who can't take a punch, prior to that was fighting on prelims and getting tagged by the likes of Neil Wain.

 

Velasquez: Beat Kongo, a hugely one-dimentional fighter who trained about four times before the fight. Nogueira, who looks like a shambling Zombie version of his former self and Ben Rothwell, who is struggling past the likes of Gilbert Yvel.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here...I'm not discrediting any of the above at all. My theory is that you can only beat who is put infront of you, and I'd take Fedor's 32 wins and 10-years undefeated over the record of any other HW ever.

 

Like you said though, the problem with Fedor is that he never fought Barnett of Kharitonov back then, and isn't fighting Brock, Shane and Cain now. For that reason, in my mind, whoever comes out with the most wins from the Brock/Carwin/Velasques/JDS quadrangle over the next few years or so will probably go down in history as 'the greatest' up to that point. Especially if one of them beat all three of the others.

[Trashbear]

It's a huge fight, especially following Fedor's loss. It'll be the first time in a long time that we can say "This guy is the current best HW in the world, fact".

 

For me this fight is all about answering questions, because there are a lot of questionmarks surrounding both guys.

 

- Can Brock take a punch? Conventional wisdom says yes purely based on his physical make-up, but he's never been hit so we don't know.

 

- Can Brock operate off his back? Again, you'd think so given his credentials, but until we see someone put him there and keep him there, who knows? Is Carwin the man to do it? I guess we'll find out. One other thing to note on credentials; it's been a loooong time since Brock wrestled...it's not like he's Ben Askren. Does that matter? Again, we'll see...

 

- Can Carwin last more than five minutes? He says 25 is no problem, but then he would. Until we see it in practise, we can only speculate.

 

- Can Carwin deal with Brock's wrestling? I don't know much about the tallent gap between D1 and D2 wrestlers, but I'm told it's pretty sizable. Carwin is going to have to take the innitiative against Brock, and that will leave him open for the shot...can he deal with it, or will he end up on his back getting hammered into oblivion?

 

- Is Brock healthy? I never back a guy coming of a year-plus layoff if they're in an even remotely even fight. That said, Carwin hasn't exactly been busy, and Brock's 'rookie' status means more time to train could actually benefit him. He's been training full time since Jan, FYI.

 

Here's the interesting part though...last week someone on the UG posted something about Lesnar getting hurt in training and potentially pulling out of the fight. Typical troll stuff, but apparently this guy had been on the money a couple of times before, so my boss checked it out. He put a call in to somone in Brock's camp - a sparring partner - to see if there was any truth to it.

 

Now, for full disclosure, this guy is a sparring partner, not a full time training partner, so he's not there all the time (or even most of the time) and is likely not privvy to all the inner-wrokings of the camp. It could be that he is literally brought in for two days at a time to spar, then leaves for a week etc.

 

This guy said that Brock had picked up a knock, and there was talk of pulling him out from his trainers/coaches. We also contacted Brock's manager, but the official word there was that Brock would be 100% come fight time, which isn't really a confirmation or denial. When my boss contacted the source again (the next day, I believe) he said that there was a knock, but it was "Getting better by the hour". Take that for what it's worth...

 

The gap between D1 and D2 wrestling is, I feel, enormous. Okay, I wrestled at the JuCo level, which is miles away from the level that Brock competed at. I wrestled as a heavyweight, but I was around 215 or so, which meant I was frequently up against much bigger opponents, but speed was my advantage. Well, every so often, these big guys, monsters some of them, were so unbelievably fast that my speed advantage was utterly negated. I honestly couldn't believe how someone so big could be so fast. Literally "blink and you're dead" fast. Brock is like ten times faster than that.

 

Those guys I wrestled? I've seen them be devoured by good D2 wrestlers. And those good D2 wrestlers? They would in turn be destroyed by good D1 wrestlers. Brock was the biggest and best D1 wrestler in the country, winner of the Dan Hodge award (equivalent of the Heisman for wrestlers). So, though he hasn't competed as a pure wrestler in about a decade, his level of ability was so high that I don't think those skills have faded, or at least haven't faded enough to give Carwin much of a chance in the wrestling department. Especially if Brock can get wrist control, Carwin could be in trouble.

 

But the questions about Brock's chin are legit. He did take a pretty stiff knee from Mir in their 2nd fight, but he was able to get on top and rest immediately after that, so that's not a great example of how he can handle punishment. Everyone knows that Carwin is a wrecking machine, so even someone with a granite chin would want to stay away from his hands, and he's not a terrible wrestler by any means, so a takedown isn't a foregone conclusion or anything.

 

I'm a fan of MMA first and of Brock second, so I just want to see a good fight. I hope that Brock wins, and I think that he can, but I definitely wouldn't say that he will.

 

I certainly hope that Brock isn't hurt, I planned a whole party around this freakin' PPV! So many variables...the wait is almost too much!

[Daffanka]

I agree with most of your points, but at the same time, you could look at the records of other 'top' HWs and do similar things.

 

Everything in heavyweight is relative because the red hot blossoming prospect was outstruck by Kongo, the challenger for the world's biggest title moves like a robot and the current champion was outwrestled by an old LHW at times.

 

That said I really think Lesnar's going to absolutely destroy Carwin.

 

If you compare their fights Carwin moves like Bigfoot Silva with arthritis and literally only throws 1-2s at distance. Lesnar mixes up his striking, slips a good deal of punches and keeps his chin tucked and hands up.

 

And that's ignoring that we know Brock's got a hell of a power double and nothing of Carwin's wrestling.

 

I've said this before but I think the guy to beat Lesnar is going to be Velasquez. He's fast, is improving very quickly, has technically sound striking, KO power, a good chin and more importantly I think his wrestling is going to hold up. He doesn't have Brock's credentials but when he was wrestling at a collegiate level the competition was much tougher with Cole Konrad and Steve Mocco there, both better wrestlers than Lesnar, and neither guy could take him down. In comparison the only really good wrestler (relatively speaking) Lesnar had to contend with was Stephen Neal in his first year, and he lost. Add to it that Velasquez is really good in the clinch and I think he's going to beat Lesnar and anyone else coming at him for a while pretty decisively.

 

dos Santos is the odd man out because he's obviously got good hands but other than the Ferriera fight in which he got a sweep and was caught in an armbar pretty easily there's literally nothing we know about the things that's going to be really, really important when fighting the top guys in the division. He's training with the Nogs and Mark Munoz and people like this though so maybe he's really good at it. HEAVYWEIGHT MMA

[RingofHonorGuard]

People when you're going to list off the accomplishments of Fedor and try and make people change their opinion... don't cite fights like Lindland, Choi, and Zulu... because -those- ARE the fights people are bashing Fedor for. He nearly got taken down by Lindland, used the ropes for momentum, ended up on top and won... Who knows what would have happened if Fedor hadn't used the ropes? That's always going to be a question. Choi made Fedor's face look worse than the majority of his opponents over the years, and he's a monster fighter but the fact is... he's slow, has long limbs, and really no MMA experience that matters, and Fedor finished him in hilarious fashion, but he still took quite a bit of damage in that short time... And Zuluzino is just a joke... the dude throws like three punches a minute.

 

Fedor's biggest wins are against Nogueira, Cro Cop, Arlovski, Sylvia, and Rogers... That's about as good as you can give it to him.

 

He's an exciting fighter, always composed for the most part, and threw together one of the best winning streaks in combat sports history. But every dog has its day, and Fedor's time in the sun(at least of being GOD of MMA) is over. There's no realistic way anyone with a brain could still rank Fedor as #1, because the main reason he kept that position for so long is due to the way he was beating people and he was "undefeated"... Now that he got choked unconscious by #10 Heavyweight 90 seconds into the fight, he's got to drop down to 2, if not 3 until he wins against another ranked fighter. Had the fight went to a decision, and it was split... who knows? You could certainly make a better case for #1 heavyweight if that happened, but it'd still be an argument. Fact is Fedor lost, his strength of victories just aren't there anymore, and therefore he can't be #1.

[brashleyholland]

Here's a question...lets say Brock stops Carwin on Saturday...what does the HW ranking picture look like? I'm not a fan of having a top ten fighter ranked higher than someone who has beaten him recently, which make my rankings weird..

 

Again, this is assuming a solid stoppage victory for Lesnar on Saturday.

 

1 Lesnar

2 Velasquez

3 Carwin

4 JDS

5 Werdum

6 Fedor

 

or,

 

1 Lesnar

2 Fedor

3 Carwin

4 Velasquez

5 JDS

6 Werdum

[Daffanka]

#1 Lesnar

#2 Velasquez

#3 dos Santos

#4 Werdum

#5 Carwin

#6 Fedor

#7 Mir

#8 Overeem

#9 Nogueira

#10 Uhh.... Antonio Silva I guess?

 

 

I feel pretty confident about the top 4 but the rest are a jumble.

 

These periods where a division is sorting itself out really are the most exciting, aren't they?

 

e: I'm mostly basing this off that I think rankings by and large should reflect the recent history in the division. If someone beats someone else he gets his spot.

[Trashbear]

#1 Lesnar

#2 Velasquez

#3 dos Santos

#4 Werdum

#5 Carwin

#6 Fedor

#7 Mir

#8 Overeem

#9 Nogueira

#10 Uhh.... Antonio Silva I guess?

 

 

I feel pretty confident about the top 4 but the rest are a jumble.

 

These periods where a division is sorting itself out really are the most exciting, aren't they?

 

e: I'm mostly basing this off that I think rankings by and large should reflect the recent history in the division. If someone beats someone else he gets his spot.

 

Assuming a Lesnar victory, I would put Fedor at 5 and Carwin at 6.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Switch Carwin and Fedor and I think you're dead on Daff. I still believe Fedor is top five until another shake up happens in the division, or he loses again.

[Zoloftjunkie]

Let me make it clear my thoughts on fedor. I know part of my judgement is skewed cause I dislike him and m1. But I wont take anything away from what he did accomplish. The main reasons I feel like he wouldn't be a top fighter in the ufc is because when I see him fight he looks uninspired. I also don't think he is at the same level as his Pride days which is understandable cause he is older and has taken damage over the years. So while I don't think he "sucks" like someone put those words in my mouth, I do think his time is passing and frankly he doesn't care about the sport just the money.

 

Daff I think you might have a bit of a mancrush on sonnen.

 

#1 Lesnar

#2 Dos Santos

#3 Velasquez

#4 Werdum

#5 Carwin

#6 Overreem

#7 Fedor

#8 Mirr

#9 Nog

#10 Barnett

[Zoloftjunkie]

On a somber note http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/06/28/michael-kirkham-dies-following-pro-mma-debut/

Thoughts go out to his family.

[brashleyholland]

Let me make it clear my thoughts on fedor. I know part of my judgement is skewed cause I dislike him and m1. But I wont take anything away from what he did accomplish. The main reasons I feel like he wouldn't be a top fighter in the ufc is because when I see him fight he looks uninspired. I also don't think he is at the same level as his Pride days which is understandable cause he is older and has taken damage over the years. So while I don't think he "sucks" like someone put those words in my mouth, I do think his time is passing and frankly he doesn't care about the sport just the money.

 

Absolutly not..what are you basing that on? If he only cared about the money he'd have taken the UFC's generous offer last year, for which one fight would have earned him more than this entire Strikeforce contract.

 

Have you seen the guy's car, house and gym? He lives in a tiny mining town, has no internet or computer in his house and got his first TV (for his kids) two years ago. He drives an old Toyota that he didn't even buy; it was a present from the state. His home is small, even by a regular person's standards, let alone someone who is a millionaire a couple of times over.

 

His managers, on the other hand, are lying, conniving scumbags who are interesting in little other than money...and I speak from personal experience having had dealings with a couple of them prior to M-1 Global

 

Daff I think you might have a bit of a mancrush on sonnen.

 

...and there's nothing wrong with a bit of good ol' Rebublican man love. Remember, it's not gay if you beat the guy up afterwards.

 

#1 Lesnar

#2 Dos Santos

#3 Velasquez

#4 Werdum

#5 Carwin

#6 Overreem

#7 Fedor

#8 Mirr

#9 Nog

#10 Barnett

 

How do you get Fedor below Overeem at HW? Or JDS over Velasquez, or Barnett in at all? Serious questions btw, I'm just interested in seeing how you got there

[Dustin]

RIP. On a lighter note, has anyone here seen a "back breaker" performed in MMA? I saw Guy Mezger demonstrate it on HDNet's "Inside the Arts" and it looks awesome albeit extremely painful. It didn't look like it should be so rare that I have never seen it either. Could it be too dangerous and banned?

[brashleyholland]

On a somber note http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/06/28/michael-kirkham-dies-following-pro-mma-debut/

Thoughts go out to his family.

 

Sucks indeed, but sadly it was always going to happen in this kind of sport. Someone will die in the Octagon one day, unfortunatelly..then we'll see the sport's capacity to recover from a fighter death.

 

That's what, two now, plus Doug Dedge in the Ukraine...that we know of. (There was also a guy in South Korea who died of a heart attack, but not much is known as to whether it was a direct result of the fight he was in).

 

I'd say that's a pretty good safety record for a combat sport, but I hope that some good comes out of this situation with regards to better training for officials.

 

I don't want to seem insensitive about what happened though, it's a sad situation indeed.

[brashleyholland]

RIP. On a lighter note, has anyone here seen a "back breaker" performed in MMA? I saw Guy Mezger demonstrate it on HDNet's "Inside the Arts" and it looks awesome albeit extremely painful. It didn't look like it should be so rare that I have never seen it either. Could it be too dangerous and banned?

 

There are a couple of submission holds refered to the 'back breaker'...I couldn't imagine either of the ones I'm thinking off being possible/useful in MMA....can you describe the one you saw?

 

The Unified Rules only references strikes to the spine as being a no-no, so I guess they'd be legal.

[Zoloftjunkie]

If fedor isn't in it for the money then why is such a honest and religious man in bed with the likes of m1?

 

Reason I put Reem over Fedor is just cause I think Reem is really hitting his stride now in mma while I see Fedor on the downslide. I would like to see them fight for sure. But it looks like we have to wait for either the rematch to happen or for Werdum/Reem title match. That and like I said I am biased

 

To me Dos Santos has had more quality fighters under his belt. It is hard for me to say Cain beat the real Nog ya know. Junior also has a Werdum scalp But yeah I can see 2-3 going either way till they fight each other or the champ.

 

Who else would you put at ten? Do you think Big foot or Nelson would beat Barnett? I dunno I am def no expert and rankings are very subjective so who did I over look for the spot?

[Dustin]

I just remembered that Ivan Salaverry did something similar but this is slightly different from what I remember him doing.

 

RNC position with the body triangle, grab the opponent around the waist and arch backwards. It causes the separation of the lower spine according to Mezger.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Tyson Griffin now officially in for Joe Stevenson against Gomi... Seeya back in Japan Gomi, you had a shot against Joe, but you're done now. When's the last time Tyson Griffin lost back to back?