The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

There's one for WWE and TNA, so I thought I'd start up an official MMA/UFC/Strikeforce thread!

 

 

As an update on the story that broke yesterday, Chael Sonnen has said that he wont be stepping in against Anderson Silva at UFC 112, citing his medical suspension preventing him from sparring until the 9th of March as the reason.

 

Dana White has said that Anderson *will* remain on the card, hopefully defending his title. There's a finite number of guys comming off wins that could step in...Maia is the obvious choice, but his medical suspension runs through to August unless he's cleared. Akiyama isn't booked, but the UFC are reportedly holding him back for the winner of Bisping/Silva. Wonder if that fight ends quickly, if the winner would step up if asked/healthy? I doubt Bisping would, but Wanderlei might.

[BHK1978]

I usually don't like to post about MMA because I am only a casual fan and my knowledge is nothing compared to others on here.

 

But I have a question, do you think that the WEC is popular enough to have PPV? I mean I love the WEC (sometimes I think I like it more than the UFC) but they are on a cable station that not many people get. Therefore their general exposure is limited. Now granted they are owned by the UFC so they do not have to make money on their PPV's. So what is everyone's opinion on this subject?

[brashleyholland]

I usually don't like to post about MMA because I am only a casual fan and my knowledge is nothing compared to others on here.

 

But I have a question, do you think that the WEC is popular enough to have PPV? I mean I love the WEC (sometimes I think I like it more than the UFC) but they are on a cable station that not many people get. Therefore their general exposure is limited. Now granted they are owned by the UFC so they do not have to make money on their PPV's. So what is everyone's opinion on this subject?

 

http://www.mmabay.co.uk/Story%20A%2000692.html

 

That was my take on it last Sunday.

 

In short - WEC's 'stars' have been complaining about their level of pay compared to their UFC counterparts. Putting them on PPV is letting them sink or swim...if it pays off, great. If not, the UFC has the numbers to go back to the table and say "This is what a WEC PPV makes, so this is what we can pay you".

 

Another consideration is that Zuffa has some fairly lengthy TV contracts connected to the WEC brand. If a WEC show does appalling numbers, they again have the figures to take to a TV network live Versus and say "This brand is failing, we want to take it off the air - here's some UFC programming to replace it". That would make the eventual folding of the WEC into the UFC (which Zuffa have repeatedly said is their endgame) alot smoother.

 

 

Finally, despite being owned by Zuffa LLC, the WEC is it's own company with it's own staff and HAS to make a profit. The Fertita brothers are in some serious financial quagmires at the moment with Station Casino's (their main business) so they are not running a money pit with the WEC.

 

They have scheduled this card in April - Between the end of March and the 8th of May there are already three big UFC PPV's and the Mayweather fight which is expected to do 900K+ buys. Even without the boxing, MMA fans are already expeted to shell out $140 in the space of about 6 weeks.

 

There is also 'UFC on Versus', UFC Fight Night and Strikeforce on CBS (featuring Fedor and Dan Henderson) all airing for 'free', so it's not like people will be starved for MMA around the time that WEC's PPV is taking place.

 

My point: While they are not setting WEC up to sink...they aren't giving it the best possible chance to swim on PPV.

[brashleyholland]

I usually don't like to post about MMA because I am only a casual fan and my knowledge is nothing compared to others on here.

 

 

Hopefully this thread will evolve into somewhere people can ask questions as well...there are a few people on here, Biggz, Wade, Ringofhonourguard, off the top of my head that really know their stuff. Share the wealth and all that jazz

[jesterx7769]

I am interested to see if Mousasi will stay with Strikeforce after his final fight or if he does resign how long he will stay now that he doesnt have the M-1 connection.

[brashleyholland]

I am interested to see if Mousasi will stay with Strikeforce after his final fight or if he does resign how long he will stay now that he doesnt have the M-1 connection.

 

I think, not 100% though, that it was a 12-month, three fight deal. So assuming he fights Lawal in April it'll be a countdown to negotiations after that. It depends on the wording of the contract exactly how long they can keep him.

 

The story last time was that M-1 told Mousasi that the UFC had made a low offer (40k to fight, 40k to win), so he should sign with Strikeforce (for reportedly less than half the guarenteed purse he was getting from the Affliction contract, but more than 40k). Mousasi trusted Apy Echtheld (his manager and a partner in M-1 global), so he signed the deal.

 

Gegard became suspicious after talking to some of the other Affliction fighters who'd had offers from the UFC to match their Affliction deals (FYI Mousasi was on $125,000 plus win bonus with his Affliction deal). He actually called Joe Silva to voice his concerns, and was told:

 

A) That the UFC had not made any cash offer to M-1 for Mousasi's services.

 

B) That the UFC was going to make an offer and intended to honour Mousasi's Affliction deal.

 

 

Assuming that the above is true then not only did M-1 make up the 40k offer to put Mousasi off the UFC, they halted negotiations with the UFC before they could make him an offer. The subtext being that they wanted Fedor in Strikeforce because it was more financially benneficial to them and would have had a hard time explaining why Mousasi could fight in the UFC while Fedor couldn't.

 

Echtheld was also caught lying to the press when he told an interviewer that Mousasi was on the conference call with the UFC when the offer was made...obviously this was not the case or he wouldn't have had to call Joe Silva about the 40k/40k offer. Vadim Finkelchtein (head of M-1) was asked on another occasion about this disparity and he refused to answer, directing people to "Ask Apy".

 

It's shady as anything, but as anyone who knows anything about Echtheld and his history in the fight business will tell you, it's not at all a shock.

 

Common sense says that Mousasi gets a great offer from the UFC and his management (if he keeps winning) and ends up in the UFc by the end of the year, assuming he is not tied into Dreams light-heavyweight GP.

[brashleyholland]

Maia is the obvious choice, but his medical suspension runs through to August unless he's cleared.

 

Look's like they are going to find a doctor who'll clear Maia (or worry about any possible repercussions later) as the UFC have just announced Maia vs Silva for the 185lb championship at 112!

 

Hopefully this isn't another Silva-Leites stalemate...I'm thinking Maia goes for broke and gets stopped early.

[BHK1978]

That was a very well written article brashleyholland.

[TheKenwyne]

Really, Maia? Shame about Sonnen's cut, but I would've given it to Marquardt before Maia: we know standing that Maia is going to get destroyed by Ando and I have no reason to believe that Silva won't just stalemate him on the ground.

 

I beleive Marquardt should have it for the simple reason that he's so ridiclously hard to finish. If he can take Silva for a ride, there's always the chance of something incredible in the later rounds vs. a tired Silva. Maia I just see eating a big combination in the first round and giving Silva an easy retain.

 

Best case scenario? Just wait until Sonnen or Belfort recover. The 112 card's strong enough already with BJ, Renzo and Hughes on it.

[Mr_Tricky]

I can definitely see Maia going out quick depending on how much he tries to strike right away. I don't think Maia has the gas to keep shooting for takedowns over and over. But, if he should take Anderson down and get on top, I think it will be the most dangerous position any past or current opponent could put him in since he's held the title.

 

I'm actually a little more excited for this than I was for Vitor.

[brashleyholland]

 

I'm actually a little more excited for this than I was for Vitor.

 

It's certainly a different dynamic. We know that Vitor crumbles after a round or two of pressure (the majority or his losses come when he's taken deep, most of his wins are in the first round/half of the fight). There are still many questions about Maia.

 

Was the Nate KO a one off? Can he be effective in later rounds? Will he pull guard or look to get top possition?

 

Certainly more intriguing than 'Can Vitor score a KO in the first 5 minutes?' I don't like Maia's chances, but I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

[brashleyholland]

That was a very well written article brashleyholland.

 

Thanks mate.

[Craig Edwards]

anyone think a fighter should come out to, You're Going Down by Sick Puppies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2bohKixLt8&feature=related

[RingofHonorGuard]

Vitor is Vitor. You know what to expect... Belfort is a lot like Arlovski, he's lethal... until he gets hit a few times. His best chance is always early by KO, as he proved again by jacking Franklin's jaw. I was annoyed when they gave the title shot to Vitor, considering he's barely been active in the sport until recently. A victory over a confused Rich Franklin isn't much to brag about these days, I felt Rich lost to Wanderlei as well.

 

However, as the UFC and MMA hype machine usually commands, I got sucked into the pre-fight ongoings between the two. So when Belfort pulled out with injury I was annoyed yet again because I knew that Anderson was either taking out a contender at Light Heavyweight, which is counterproductive, or he'd be facing an even lesser proven fighter for the belt.

 

Sonnen, Marquardt, and Maia have wove themselves into a knit similar to Rampage, Liddell, and Wanderlei.. You can x Marquardt out of the conversation given the fact that he was just recently dominated and has a loss to the champ already...

 

Sonnen has a cut, so it's Maia. It's a cool fight. Stylistically it could be -very- boring, but I'm not sure Maia's heart will allow him to be boring. He's going to be aggressively chasing the takedown instead of just letting Silva come to him like Leites did. Unfortunately that plays right into Anderson's game, and unless Maia lands a hail mary Wanderlei overhand and sinks a sub, I can't see him winning.

 

I think Belfort should fight Sonnen for the title shot when he gets back. That's all for now.

[brashleyholland]

Vitor is Vitor. You know what to expect... Belfort is a lot like Arlovski, he's lethal... until he gets hit a few times.

 

That's a really good analogy.

[brashleyholland]

Random news bits:

 

Couture has said he is open to a Lesnar rematch. The ONLY way that should happen is if Brock loses badly in his next fight. As in, gets tapped or knocked out in short order. If Lesnar beats Mir/Carwin or Nog/Velasquez - then he has the other winner, Dos Santos, heck, even Gonzaga if he keeps winning before he needs to fight Couture again.

 

Alistair Overeem is fighting in April. In eastern Europe. Against someone without a pro record. Some people are assuming that it's a kickboxing bout, but nobody is sure. Makes it even less likely that he will fight for Strikeforce in May/June.

 

Bobby Lashley doesn't want anything to do with Brett Rogers. Lashley has basically said - Give me Fedor or Overeem. Rogers would be a huge risk so early in his career and he'd potentially losing to a guy who just got pole-axed. At least he has the excuse of losing to the champ or best heavyweight in the world if he fights Fedor or Alistair.

 

Doesn't say much to me in terms of how seriously he's taking MMA as a long-term career. He wants to fight the top shelf guys or bargain basement scrubs who wont pose a threat. Building is fine, as long as he's taking steps up in competition. By all accounts Lashley isn't right now.

 

Overeem is in a similar boat. He's gone from struggling light heavyweight to a potential opponant for Fedor without beating anyone of note in MMA. Thats a big money fight. He's not going to risk his momentum by fighting a Rogers or Werdum, where a loss would take the shine off the Fedor fight.

[d_w_w]

Vitor is Vitor. You know what to expect... Belfort is a lot like Arlovski, he's lethal... until he gets hit a few times. His best chance is always early by KO, as he proved again by jacking Franklin's jaw. I was annoyed when they gave the title shot to Vitor, considering he's barely been active in the sport until recently. A victory over a confused Rich Franklin isn't much to brag about these days, I felt Rich lost to Wanderlei as well.

 

However, as the UFC and MMA hype machine usually commands, I got sucked into the pre-fight ongoings between the two. So when Belfort pulled out with injury I was annoyed yet again because I knew that Anderson was either taking out a contender at Light Heavyweight, which is counterproductive, or he'd be facing an even lesser proven fighter for the belt.

 

Sonnen, Marquardt, and Maia have wove themselves into a knit similar to Rampage, Liddell, and Wanderlei.. You can x Marquardt out of the conversation given the fact that he was just recently dominated and has a loss to the champ already...

 

Sonnen has a cut, so it's Maia. It's a cool fight. Stylistically it could be -very- boring, but I'm not sure Maia's heart will allow him to be boring. He's going to be aggressively chasing the takedown instead of just letting Silva come to him like Leites did. Unfortunately that plays right into Anderson's game, and unless Maia lands a hail mary Wanderlei overhand and sinks a sub, I can't see him winning.

 

I think Belfort should fight Sonnen for the title shot when he gets back. That's all for now.

 

I like the way you think and agree with pretty much everything in this post

[RingofHonorGuard]

Random news bits:

 

Couture has said he is open to a Lesnar rematch. The ONLY way that should happen is if Brock loses badly in his next fight. As in, gets tapped or knocked out in short order. If Lesnar beats Mir/Carwin or Nog/Velasquez - then he has the other winner, Dos Santos, heck, even Gonzaga if he keeps winning before he needs to fight Couture again.

 

Alistair Overeem is fighting in April. In eastern Europe. Against someone without a pro record. Some people are assuming that it's a kickboxing bout, but nobody is sure. Makes it even less likely that he will fight for Strikeforce in May/June.

 

Bobby Lashley doesn't want anything to do with Brett Rogers. Lashley has basically said - Give me Fedor or Overeem. Rogers would be a huge risk so early in his career and he'd potentially losing to a guy who just got pole-axed. At least he has the excuse of losing to the champ or best heavyweight in the world if he fights Fedor or Alistair.

 

Doesn't say much to me in terms of how seriously he's taking MMA as a long-term career. He wants to fight the top shelf guys or bargain basement scrubs who wont pose a threat. Building is fine, as long as he's taking steps up in competition. By all accounts Lashley isn't right now.

 

Overeem is in a similar boat. He's gone from struggling light heavyweight to a potential opponant for Fedor without beating anyone of note in MMA. Thats a big money fight. He's not going to risk his momentum by fighting a Rogers or Werdum, where a loss would take the shine off the Fedor fight.

 

Yeah, it's pretty sad that so many people think Overeem is a brick house after a few K-1 matches, and steamrolling Mark Hunt. The last time he fought someone Top 10 was back in 07 against Shogun... Pretty sad. Overeem doesn't really present any problems for Fedor as far as I'm concerned, and I'd put money on Rogers to knock him out as well.

 

Couture needs to stay as far away from the heavyweight division as possible at this point. He's been quoted as saying he only came back and fought Sylvia because the heavyweight division was so weak at the time. Now the heavyweight division, by my standards, is quickly becoming one of the deepest divisions in all of MMA. About time... And to make things worse for Randy they're all pretty much fighters that he can't handle... Bigger, stronger wrestlers with controlling top games = Couture is lunch.

 

I'm still up in the air about Bobby Lashley. He beat Hudge Pudge Sims with pillow punches, however, a win is a win. I have no idea what they'll do with Lashley at this point, but getting smashed by Fedor this early into the campaign probably means he isn't in it for the long haul.

[Mr_Tricky]

Seems like Overeem is avoiding Strikeforce like the plague, which is pretty weird since he's willing to fight every monster in K-1. Shady as hell.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Seems like Overeem is avoiding Strikeforce like the plague, which is pretty weird since he's willing to fight every monster in K-1. Shady as hell.

 

Overeem is always going to choose the foreign market over America. He makes big money in Japan to face lesser competition. How can you blame him? And it's not like it's a big deal that Overeem is doing K-1... He is a kickboxer after all.

[brashleyholland]

Seems like Overeem is avoiding Strikeforce like the plague, which is pretty weird since he's willing to fight every monster in K-1. Shady as hell.

 

Alistair's problem is this...somehow, he's gone from a struggling light heavyweight (he lost his last four bouts at 205) to a heavyweight who is being talked about as the only legitimate threat to Fedor outside of the UFC, without beating a ranked heavyweight along the way. Belfort was a blown up heavyweight, Hunt was a kickboxer who never took MMA seriously (despite notching up a couple of decent wins) and Fujita, Buentello and Goodridge are journeymen.

 

So here's his quandry...he doesn't have a contract with Strikeforce, despite being their champion. He want's the big money Fedor fight, either on CBS, PPV or one of K-1's Dream events in Japan. If he takes a fight with Antonio Silva, Brett Rogers, Jeff Monson or someone else of that ilk, it's not a big money fight anywhere in the world. If one of those guys beats him, he loses out on the big money Fedor fight. Money is scarce in MMA in Japan right now, so even there he needs his momentum.

 

So he's stuck crushing cans to keep active. It's ok for him to lose in K-1, because despite his background and the fact that he trains out of one of the best kickboxing gyms in the world, he's still seen as an 'MMA guy' fighting the kickboxing elite. The fact that he's winning fights in K-1 doesn't hurt either.

[Daffanka]

Let me just add to the above that Alistair Overeem is, in fact, not an idiot and thus knows how to cycle out steroids for the pretty pathetically inadequate American testing.

 

I think the guy's looked decent in his last fights but in MMA he's fought terrible opponents. Same could be said for Fedor though.

[brashleyholland]

I think the guy's looked decent in his last fights but in MMA he's fought terrible opponents. Same could be said for Fedor though.

 

That's an unfair comparison.

 

Overeem:

 

Fujita: 15-9, never beaten a top 10 ranked heavyweight, on a run of 2-4 when they fought

Thompson: 15-12, never beat a top 10 HW, on a run of 1-8-1 when they fought

Sylvester: Part-time fighter, biggest win over 11-14 Sherman Pendergarst

Goodridge: 23-21, without a win since 2007, last significant win over a decade ago

 

Fedor:

 

Rogers: 11-1, top 15 heavyweight, undefeated at the time of the fight.

Barnett: 24-5, concensus number two ranked HW before the fight was pulled, only lost to CroCop (injury) and Nogueira (decision) in the past 4 years.

Arlovski: Concencus top three ranked HW at the time of the fight

Sylvia: 25-6, top 10 HW at the time of the fight, comming off a UFC title bout, only lost to Nogueira and Couture in the three years leading up to the fight.

 

Points being, A) Completely different class of opponants and B) Fedor is fighting the best opponants availible to him, while Alistair is purposely fighting 'tune-up' fights until he gets Fedor.

[Daffanka]

Rogers: 11-1, top 15 heavyweight, undefeated at the time of the fight.

Barnett: 24-5, concensus number two ranked HW before the fight was pulled, only lost to CroCop (injury) and Nogueira (decision) in the past 4 years.

Arlovski: Concencus top three ranked HW at the time of the fight

Sylvia: 25-6, top 10 HW at the time of the fight, comming off a UFC title bout, only lost to Nogueira and Couture in the three years leading up to the fight.

 

Points being, A) Completely different class of opponants and B) Fedor is fighting the best opponants availible to him, while Alistair is purposely fighting 'tune-up' fights until he gets Fedor.

 

Rankings mean nothing. They are based on profile rather than skill.

 

Brett Rogers is a bad fighter. He's a can with KO power. This is all you need to knock out Andrei Arlovski and people started riding the hype train.

 

He didn't, you know, actually fight Barnett.

 

Arlovski is a bad fighter. He's lost against every halfway decent opponent he's fought, is terrible at defending strikes and has a glass chin. This is pretty disastrous for a guy who likes to strike. Him being ranked third at the time of the Fedor fight is ridiculous and was probably done to either hype up the Fedor fight or have some misguided delusions about how the UFC doesn't have the best fighters (it does.) If anything his fight with Rogers right after showed this.

 

Tim Sylvia. Really? You're going to put Tim Sylvia as a credible opponent?

 

Fedor fought better opponents. But he didn't fight good opponents.

[Mr_Tricky]

I think Brett Rogers is basically Cain Velasquez with better wins, better performances, and better experience. He's young in his career, but you can see in his fights that he is a natural. He has great instincts and killer instinct. The fighters who display this always turn out well: Velasquez, Mousasi, and Jon Jones are some examples.

 

Arlovski was on a tear at the time, the best streak at HW. He's on a losing streak now, but looking at it in hindsight is not the proper perspective. Arlovski was one of the best, and he has the tools to be there again.

 

Tim Sylvia was only 2-3 fights removed from being the UFC champion, he was coming off a title fight. Two title fights in your last three fights is impressive. He was championship caliber before losing to Mercer. Obviously, Ray Mercer is not a better fighter than Tim Sylvia, so it is no reflection of Tim Sylvia's abilities. He is still elite.

 

These fighters, and the current top HWs outside the UFC are comparable to the HWs in the UFC right now. Possibly better. They just don't have crafty promoters behind them, like Frank Mir does.

 

So, needless to say, I disagree that Fedor has not fought good opponents.