The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[RingofHonorGuard]

At this point I'd really like to see the UFC open a Sportman's Division of sorts... Fighters that still want to compete but have no business in serious divisional battles.

 

I mean a division featuring guys like Nogueira, Couture, Cro Cop, Herring.. You catch my drift... A throwback to the old days and fights we never got to see that could still be competitive today. Plus it would give them a reason to bring in Dan Severn for a few fights, and maybe Shamrock as well, even though they are at ends.

 

Not suggesting we start seeing old retirement fights filling UFC PPV cards either... But I know a lot of older fans would tune in to see Randy Couture fight against Cro Cop on pay per view, and a lot of people would tune in on TV to see another boring battle between Shamrock and Severn.

[justtxyank]

At this point I'd really like to see the UFC open a Sportman's Division of sorts... Fighters that still want to compete but have no business in serious divisional battles.

 

I mean a division featuring guys like Nogueira, Couture, Cro Cop, Herring.. You catch my drift... A throwback to the old days and fights we never got to see that could still be competitive today. Plus it would give them a reason to bring in Dan Severn for a few fights, and maybe Shamrock as well, even though they are at ends.

 

Not suggesting we start seeing old retirement fights filling UFC PPV cards either... But I know a lot of older fans would tune in to see Randy Couture fight against Cro Cop on pay per view, and a lot of people would tune in on TV to see another boring battle between Shamrock and Severn.

 

I would actually love to see this. One fight per card of older fighters would be nice. Good legacy matches.

 

It all comes down to two things: When is Lesnar good to go and Will the winner of Carwin/Mir be fit enough to face him?

 

Apparently they're looking at June/July/August for Lesnar...if the winner of Carwin/Mir isn't fit, they've already said that they'll give Velasquez the fight. The winner would then fight the interim champion, probably at the end of year card, injuries permitting.

 

If the Mir/Carwin winner is fit, I can't see them risking Velasquez in the meantime...I reckon he'll sit on the shelf like Carwin did last year. I also wouldn't be hugely surprised to see Junior Dos Santos springboard into title contention following Nogueira's performance.

 

As for Nog, I don't see the upside in 'protecting' him anymore...if he can't take a punch, he's going to struggle in the HW division regardless. There a rematch with Mir, *if* Mir loses to Carwin or Lesnar. If Mir beats Carwin and Lesnar, you could have Brock vs Nog. Like I said earlier though, I don't like the idea of him fighting these young guns anymore.

 

For my money, give him Mirko and see how he fares.

 

All this is true. Like I said, the only way I see Nog getting a title shot now is if Dana thinks it will sell big to match Nog and Brock.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I would actually love to see this. One fight per card of older fighters would be nice. Good legacy matches.

 

In my UFC game on WMMA2 I run a Sportman Division for fighters 34+ in a 206-230 weightclass.. it helps me keep good name fighters creating hype while keeping them from being destroyed by younger monsters. Plus its quite fun seeing Tito Ortiz vs. Minotauro Nogueira

[Tag01]

I like Marquardt vs. Bisping to see if Bisping is ever going to be contender. I wouldn't be suprised if he gets an easy fight in the UK next though.

[Tag01]

Also, I think the most interesting thing about 110 was the emergence of multiple (potential) future stars. Velasquez is going to be a force at HW for years. Bader is the best thing to come out of TUF in a long time and could be another staple of the UFC. And Sotiropolous really took a step towards the top of the division. I'd like to see him fight Sherk. If he can beat the Muscle Shark he'd be on the path to a title shot I think.

[brashleyholland]

I would actually love to see this. One fight per card of older fighters would be nice. Good legacy matches.

 

 

Despite saying that I don't like the idea of a 'legends' division earlier, I still think there is money to be made with a Tank Abbott vs Ken Shamrock fight. They've been trying to pull that one off for years...it was supposed to go down last year (hence why Shamrock fought a guy so massivly obese that he died a few months after the fight because of his weight, and why Abbott fought Mike Bourke)...but Ken ended up getting busted for roids.

 

It's a fight I've wanted to see since UFC 8...two of the best trash-talkers in history who legit hate each other. Plus knowing how those guys fight, it'd be over quickly Plus, I don't think any amount of patronizing could do any harm to the legecy of Ken and Dave than they have already done themselves.

 

With Severn, it's highly unlikely that he'd get sanctioned in most states aged 55. There was another guy his age called Skip or Chip something or other, he was outright refused licences post 55, no matter what scrub they'd wheeled in for him to fight. Tim Catalfo was refuesd a licence at 48 in Nevada.

 

Severn's fighting guys who are 0-2, 3-4 or don't even have pro records...most of his fights are part of a deal he does where he does a public speaking engagement or a 'seminar', so I dunno how interested he'd be in fighting a Gracie or Taktarov or someone like that even if they could get around the licence issue.

[Daffanka]

Since some guys here are sort of in the know, I'd give this a shot.

 

To what extent are the yakuza involved with Japanese MMA at this point? I know Pride was a mess of scummy backroom deals but did this die out when Pride did or is it a problem that has its roots in Dream Stage Entertainment?

 

I've also heard stories about Yakuza being in puro but I haven't watched wrestling in ages so I don't know the validity of that.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Truth is only the Yakuza and Dreamstage know how far involved they were. It's no real surprise, as Yakuza probably made a lot of underground gambling money off of the fights, especially when they had the muscle to fix certain ones.

[justtxyank]

Since some guys here are sort of in the know, I'd give this a shot.

 

To what extent are the yakuza involved with Japanese MMA at this point? I know Pride was a mess of scummy backroom deals but did this die out when Pride did or is it a problem that has its roots in Dream Stage Entertainment?

 

I've also heard stories about Yakuza being in puro but I haven't watched wrestling in ages so I don't know the validity of that.

 

I always heard that the Yakuza was pretty involved in Puro and that they were in bed with Inoki.

[brashleyholland]

Since some guys here are sort of in the know, I'd give this a shot.

 

To what extent are the yakuza involved with Japanese MMA at this point? I know Pride was a mess of scummy backroom deals but did this die out when Pride did or is it a problem that has its roots in Dream Stage Entertainment?

 

I've also heard stories about Yakuza being in puro but I haven't watched wrestling in ages so I don't know the validity of that.

 

Actually, the truth is that criminal involvement in the Japanese fight game has been public knowledge since day one, it just doesn't get reported all that much outside Japan (and not a whole lot in Japan). Many important figures from Pride and K-1's hierarchies have gone to prison, both K-1 and Pride have legitimately employed admited Yakuza fixers and there was a huge, public manhunt for one of DSE's biggest 'backers' a couple of years ago.

 

I don't know much about puro, but what I do know is that the guys who book the talent/buildings and broker the TV/production are all mostly the same group.

 

As for the Yakuza's involvement in Japanese MMA, the short answer is yes, the same people are still involved in the game, bar one or two key players who are either in prison, forced exile or have fled Japan.

 

The long and short of it is that the Yakuza are involved in many aspects of Japanese business. If there is money to be made, they involve themselves more, if not, there's is no reason for them to be around. Sometimes if an industry isn't doing well but they see potential, they will invest money and connections and get it off the ground. Benevolence or money laundering, who's to say? :-p

 

It's a commonly held belief that Pride went bust because a newspaper reveiled their links to the Japanese Mafia...that couldn't be futher from the truth. What actually happened was that a former Yakuza named Kawamata filed charges with the Kanegawa police alledging that his life had, and was still, being threatened by Yakuza connected to DSE/Pride, specifically Sakakibara and his boss, 'Mr I'.

 

Mr I was Mr Ishizaka, aka Kim Dok-Soo, a Yakuza boss of Korean decent, and the man behind Sakakibara, DSE and thus Pride. He was a loan shark in Osaka before getting into the fight game. Sakakibara came to power after Mori****a, the previous head (and owner) of Pride was mysteriously found hanged in a hotel room shortly after announcing (I think) the Pride 2003 GP. Nobody asked why Mori****a's shares didn't revert back to his wife (read: they went to his 'other family'). Shortly after Sakakibara came to power in Pride, they started doing business with a number of production and ticket distribution companies which all had a common link - Sakakibara was on the books of all of them.

 

Anyway, when Kawamata filed the charges he cooperated with Shukan Gendai, a Japanese magazine that ran a month's worth of features smearing the people involved. It wasn't the fact that Pride had Yakuza links at all (that was already accepted) it was that they were connected in such a public way with such a serious criminal investigation that preassured Fuji TV (who were themselves in termoil) to drop them.

 

Couple of other interesting notes:

 

- The reason Kawamata and others were being threatened by Pride's Yakuza in the first place was because he'd done a dodgy deal to book Fedor vs Yuji Nagata in an MMA fight (guess how that one went)for Inoki's NYE event. Pride had exclusive rights to Russia Top Team fighters (Fedor, Aleks and more) at the time, so Fedor's management and a 'Super-Agent' called Mijatovic opened a new camp called Red Devil and simply shifted Fedor and his brother out of RTT and into the new team. The company they set up to do all this? M-1 Global :-D

 

- Mijatovic eventually also fell foul of DSE when they realised they could cut him out and do business with M-1 directly. Mijatovic has lost his other big client, Cro Cop, at the same time as the Fedor/Nagata fight went down, so his worth was becoming less and less. According to the Gendai reports of the Kanagawa police investigation, Mijatovic was summoned to a hotel room where a gun was held to his head and he was warned not to cross DSE/Pride.

 

- Kawamata is also known in Japan as Inoki's right hand man in terms of booking oversea's MMA guys for MMA and wrestling matches. So there's at least one definate link to puro. After the colapse and sale of Pride and the fact that Mr Ishizake/Kim Dok-Soo fled to Korea during the investigation, Kawamata stepped back in to fill some of the power vacume.

[Daffanka]

Well, that was interesting.

 

Thanks!

[brashleyholland]

No worries. Reading it back it sounds liek the plot to some conveluted Japanese version of the Sopranos :-p

 

Speaking of Japan, there's some intersting talk of a Fedor vs Overeem bout taking place in April on the same day as the Strikeforce card. Strikeforce would then air the bout on tape delay as part of their CBS broadcast.

 

Apparently Strikeforce thought Hendo vs Shields would do well on it's own as a main event, and didn't want to give M-1 a cut by having Fedor on the card. Which makes sence. Fedor's contract is up some time around September though, so it'll be interesting to see if he gets another fight with Strikeforce before then.

 

My worry is that the fight will end up not being broadcast on CBS. HDNet Have the exclusive broadcast rights to K-1 and Dream in North America I think, so I don't know where this puts Fedor/Overeem in terms of it being broadcast.

 

Here's a thought though. There is a big MMA event happening on the 24/25th of April in Japan called ASTRA. It's a one-off show to comemorate the retirement of Hidehiko Yoshida. It's being put on by J-ROCK, a Japanese promotional and management company that houses Yoshida Dojo. Because it's a one-off, and Yoshida is one of, if not the highest-profile Japanese MMA fighter of all time, they expect fighters from other promotions to appear.

 

Now, maybe it's just wishfull thinking, but Yoshida rematching Ishii or fighting teammate Kazuhiro Nakamura (Yoshida has mentioned both as probable opponants as they can't get Wanderlei Silva), plus Fedor vs Overeem is going to generate the kind of money that makes things happen.

 

Also, it would work out great for showing the tape delayed Fedor/Overeem bout on CBS.

[brashleyholland]

<p>LOL, and after all that, SportsNavi just announced that K-1 have confirmed Overeem for an April K-1 bout. :-p </p><p> </p><p>

Ah well!</p>

[Tag01]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="brashleyholland" data-cite="brashleyholland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No worries. Reading it back it sounds liek the plot to some conveluted Japanese version of the Sopranos :-p <p> </p><p> Speaking of Japan, there's some intersting talk of a Fedor vs Overeem bout taking place in April on the same day as the Strikeforce card. Strikeforce would then air the bout on tape delay as part of their CBS broadcast. </p><p> </p><p> Apparently Strikeforce thought Hendo vs Shields would do well on it's own as a main event, and didn't want to give M-1 a cut by having Fedor on the card. Which makes sence. Fedor's contract is up some time around September though, so it'll be interesting to see if he gets another fight with Strikeforce before then. </p><p> </p><p> My worry is that the fight will end up not being broadcast on CBS. HDNet Have the exclusive broadcast rights to K-1 and Dream in North America I think, so I don't know where this puts Fedor/Overeem in terms of it being broadcast. </p><p> </p><p> Here's a thought though. There is a big MMA event happening on the 24/25th of April in Japan called ASTRA. It's a one-off show to comemorate the retirement of Hidehiko Yoshida. It's being put on by J-ROCK, a Japanese promotional and management company that houses Yoshida Dojo. Because it's a one-off, and Yoshida is one of, if not the highest-profile Japanese MMA fighter of all time, they expect fighters from other promotions to appear. </p><p> </p><p> Now, maybe it's just wishfull thinking, but Yoshida rematching Ishii or fighting teammate Kazuhiro Nakamura (Yoshida has mentioned both as probable opponants as they can't get Wanderlei Silva), plus Fedor vs Overeem is going to generate the kind of money that makes things happen. </p><p> </p><p> Also, it would work out great for showing the tape delayed Fedor/Overeem bout on CBS.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I just don't see ASTRA hosting Fedor/Overeem. From what I understand the rumor about Fedor/Overeem in Japan has just come from blog speculation, not actual discussion from Strikeforce. I think it's a bad idea all around; Strikeforce would be crazy not to (A) air Fedor's fight live, and (B) not get it on CBS. I think Fedor's management is up to the same old nonsense, which is keeping Fedor off the CBS card. Unless CBS is going to let them have another fight card shortly after Hendo-Shields, then I don't see this fight happening anytime soon. I can't imagine Fedor fighting on Showtime, and I worry that if Hendo-Shields flops they may not get another shot at CBS.</p>

[TheKenwyne]

Fedor-Werdum's been pushed back to May in related news, which leaves Shields-Henderson to headline the April card. Does this mean we get CBS cards both months? Or will Fedor-Werdum take place in another member of M-1's tentacle-like alliance?

[brashleyholland]

Fedor-Werdum's been pushed back to May in related news, which leaves Shields-Henderson to headline the April card. Does this mean we get CBS cards both months? Or will Fedor-Werdum take place in another member of M-1's tentacle-like alliance?

 

There is a Strikeforce card on Showtime in May...but I *really* can't see Showtime coming up with the cash for a Fedor fight.

 

The situation now is that M-1 have supposedly decided that Strikeforce has not lived up to their side of the agreement that the two parties have. They are now refusing to negotiate any fights with Fedor until Strikeforce sign a new contract. This ties in with recent reports out of Europe that M-1's main financial backer in Russia has been unhappy with the return on the Strikeforce deal.

 

Depending on who you believe, Alistair is either fighting Ray Sefo in a K-1 bout on their Yokohama card, or Neil Grove at Dream 13. My money is on the Sefo bout, as a win there could tee him up nicely for a rubber match with Badr Hari, which would be a huge fight (and a huge payday) in K-1. Grove vs Barnett or Sylvia at Dream would also make sense.

[TheKenwyne]

Ubereem-Hadri III? Yes, please. And Grove? He's... well, a bit crap, isn't he? Barnett or Sylvia would have no problem with him, surely. Barnett-Sylvia? More fun, though probably still a bit to easy on Josh.

 

Speaking of Barnett I wish he would actually turn up for one of these hearings to get his liscence back, he missed, what, the fourth one last week? I hope they draw Overeem against Sefo, as much as I prefer MMA to Kickboxing, that at least might be semi-competitive. I'm not interested in Overeem as a Mixed Martial Artist until he fights someone worth fighting. Breaking James Thompson and Kazuyuki Fujita do not a world champion make. His K-1 career though has been good, and I think he can claim to have at least been on one of the most pulse-stoppingly exciting K-1 cards in ages in the GP final last year. How many of the main card fights went to a desicion again?

 

On the Strikeforce/M-1 thing... bummer. I hope Fedor doesn't end up wandering around unemployed save the odd sambo event and M-1's craptacular 'exhibition' matches, as that would be a waste for a guy who probably doesn't have long left at the top of his game. He needs to be in there and fighting: Werdum, Barnett, I don't care, someone good.

[brashleyholland]

So...pretty quiet day for Strikeforce then?

 

- Aoki vs Melendez looks to be a go for the CBS card on April 17th. Strikeforce title on the line, Dream title not on the line.

 

- Also, Mo Lawal has signed on for a title bout at 205lbs against Gegard Mousasi

 

- Andrei Arlovski has put pen to paper and expects to fight Antonio Silva on the May Showtime card.

 

- Alistair Overeem has confirmed a non-title bout with Brett Rogers also on the May Showtime card.

 

SUBTEXT: Strikeforce is not expecting Fedor to fight for them any time soon. AA costs six figures, you'd have to think that Overeem wont put the gloves on for a whole lot less. Same for Rogers. That leads me to believe that there is absolutly no way that Fedor fights Werdum on that card and it could be another 6 months before they get on CBS again.

 

Thoughts?

[jesterx7769]

Barnett missing his hearing wasn't totally his fault. He is not legally required to be there as his represenation said, however the CSAC said in the letter they sent to Barnett they asked him to be there.

 

Whats the reasoning on Overeem/Rogers non title? I havent read anything on that yet.

[brashleyholland]

Barnett missing his hearing wasn't totally his fault. He is not legally required to be there as his represenation said, however the CSAC said in the letter they sent to Barnett they asked him to be there.

 

Whats the reasoning on Overeem/Rogers non title? I havent read anything on that yet.

 

Purely because Rogers is comming off a loss. Not that the Strikeforce title means anything anyway.

 

If Rogers wins, there are a number of ways to play it. 1) Immidiate rematch (hoping of course that the first bout was exciting) or 2) Overeem vs Fedor (if they can get him) with Rogers fighting the winner.

 

If Fedor hasn't committed I reckon they'd go for a straight up rematch for the belt. If Fedor has committed for a few fights, makes sense for him to fight AO regardless. A Rogers rematch with either one would then be sellable.

[brashleyholland]

Also worth adding, a couple of people who are 'close to the situation' as it were, have mentioned that Strikeforce may have a 'Champion's clause' similar to that which the UFC includes in every fighter's contract.

 

That would certainly explain M-1 recently dwindling interest in a fight with Overeem.

[jesterx7769]

I didnt mean why he's fighting Rogers in a non title fight, more so why hes not fighting a contender for the title? It just kinda seems like a lose-lose, cuz youre hoping he beats Rogers or your title and champ go to crap

 

I can see if Fedor doesnt want the title though, that part makes sense.

[Daffanka]

The titles are just an excuse for fights (Fedor - Overeem) to be 5 rounds at this point. Fedor - Werdum doesn't really need it because it's very unlikely Werdum's gonna last that long, or if he does be relevant enough in the later rounds for them to matter.

[Tag01]

God I hate Fedor's management. They'll fight Brett Rogers but Overeem hasn't beaten anybody? stop ducking and fight for God's sake. I hate that we get to see him fight once a year.

[jesterx7769]

From what brashleyholland said if there is a title clause Fedor doesnt want the title b/c then he will have to stay in Strikeforce until he loses it.