The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

Brashley, what do you think of Joseph Duffy? I'm sure you know him but he's the boyfriend of one my old school friends. We've drifted apart in recent years so I won't be offended if you don't rate him.

 

Haha, do you know I was only talking about this fella a couple of days ago! I was supposed to see his last three fights, but each time something has come up and I've not been able to make it. I'm hoping he'll get on the next CW show, which I'm not missing if it kills me.

 

Decent record though, and from the handful of fights of his that I've seen, he looks like one to watch. Great boxing style and a traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu grappler, which emphasise the techniques now associated with Judo.

 

I think TUF was too early for him. Even though he had what, 8 or 9 first round finishes under his belt, it's all relative to the quality of opposition and that's what he's been lacking. I want to see him face tough lightweights on the domestic scene before he shoots for the UFC again and crucially, I want to see him out of the 1st round.

 

A good manager would be looking for tough journeymen with predominantly decisions on their record at this stage to test his gas and his nerve in later rounds.

[brashleyholland]

Oh yeah, and some dude from Stockton is fighting a Frenchman, or something...

 

http://www.mmabay.co.uk/2011/06/01/breaking-news-ufc-137-%E2%80%93-georges-st-pierre-vs-nick-diaz-announced-for-october-29th-in-las-vegas-nevada/

[Daffanka]

Another lopsided win for GSP preceded by months of speculation that despite all the other far superior fighters GSP's defeated handily the guy with atrocious wrestling and defense of a wet paper bag is the guy to beat him.

 

After all he tapped fat stupid Sakurai and Cyborg from guard, why couldn't he do the same to GSP!

[The Shape]

Still, he's more rounded than anyone GSP's fought since Penn and won't gas.

[Fantabulous]

The one thing Diaz will do is press the fight so GSP won't be able to go with a hit-and-run style attack like he did with Koscheck. In theory, it means we should get an exciting fight, but GSP is probably going to stick with his wrestling to take Diaz down and tool him on the ground. It might not make for a crowd pleasing fight, and if GSP wins like that, we'll have Diaz and his nuthuggers bitching about GSP not standing and banging like a real fighter would.

 

I think Diaz will give GSP some trouble at first, but eventually GSP is going to take him down and take control from there.

[ampulator]

Still, he's more rounded than anyone GSP's fought since Penn and won't gas.

Except he lacks the one thing that's going to be in difference in this fight... wrestling.

 

The one thing Diaz will do is press the fight so GSP won't be able to go with a hit-and-run style attack like he did with Koscheck. In theory, it means we should get an exciting fight, but GSP is probably going to stick with his wrestling to take Diaz down and tool him on the ground. It might not make for a crowd pleasing fight, and if GSP wins like that, we'll have Diaz and his nuthuggers bitching about GSP not standing and banging like a real fighter would.

 

I think Diaz will give GSP some trouble at first, but eventually GSP is going to take him down and take control from there.

 

I'm not sure what GSP will do, but it will look a lot like the Rory McDnoald/Nate Diaz fight. GSP will press up against the cage, a lot. And he will take him down, a lot. But he won't be as daring as Rory is.

 

Then again, GSP needs Nick Diaz more than Nick Diaz needs him. If GSP wins, he's going to have to move up. who else does he have to face?

[Fantabulous]

Rick Story and Jake Ellenberger might be one good win away from a title shot. If Carlos Condit can KO Kim like he did Hardy, he could be given consideration. Jon Fitch might find himself in contention again if he gets past Penn or whoever else he fights next. There are still plenty of potential title fights for GSP to have.

[ampulator]

Rick Story and Jake Ellenberger might be one good win away from a title shot. If Carlos Condit can KO Kim like he did Hardy, he could be given consideration. Jon Fitch might find himself in contention again if he gets past Penn or whoever else he fights next. There are still plenty of potential title fights for GSP to have.

I disagree. They might fights to "feed", and while ALL of them deserve a title shot... none of them deserve a fight with GSP. A lot of those listed, particularly Fitch, have nothing for GSP. And this is coming from a guy that thinks Fitch will generally win against most opponents... except against wrestlers. All these fights will end with GSP playing to each fighter's weaknesses. Whether he tries to risks... well, that's another story altogether.

 

People said Koscheck and Shields would have given him a hard fight. Look what happened there. If they couldn't, what makes you think these guys will?

[Fantabulous]

They probably wouldn't give GSP a lot of trouble. What they are, though, are fighters who, based on their records, could be viable title contenders. Whatever you, I, or anyone thinks they could do with GSP is irrelevant.

[ampulator]

They probably wouldn't give GSP a lot of trouble. What they are, though, are fighters who, based on their records, could be viable title contenders. Whatever you, I, or anyone thinks they could do with GSP is irrelevant.

No it isn't. Guess who's champion? GSP. If it wasn't GSP, you would be correct. But it is. It's entirely relevant, because GSP is the champion, and beating everyone at Welterweight. How is is irrelevant? You might as well say GSP as champion is irrelevant.

 

I don't think GSP should mvoe up, but he might have to, at this point.

[Fantabulous]

No it isn't. Guess who's champion? GSP. If it wasn't GSP, you would be correct. But it is. It's entirely relevant, because GSP is the champion, and beating everyone at Welterweight. How is is irrelevant? You might as well say GSP as champion is irrelevant.

What they could do with GSP is irrelevant when it comes to who gets a title shot. That's determined by their record and/or the marketability of the fight. You might think, say, Jake Ellenberger couldn't do much with GSP, but if his record means he's the best qualified guy for the next title shot, what you think doesn't matter because he's still the best qualified guy for the next title shot.

[ampulator]

What they could do with GSP is irrelevant when it comes to who gets a title shot. That's determined by their record and/or the marketability of the fight. You might think, say, Jake Ellenberger couldn't do much with GSP, but if his record means he's the best qualified guy for the next title shot, what you think doesn't matter because he's still the best qualified guy for the next title shot.

Heh, if you say it like it that, none of what we think matters, technically speaking. That's a poor argument right there. Dana can put GSP against Shonie Carter if he wanted to. He doesn't, because it's bad business. But if they wanted to, they can. Nothing stopping them. An extreme example, but it's not like Dana hasn't put up fighters with questionable records against better opponents.

 

And no one really wants to see GSP against anyone at this point... because there is simply no one as good as him. People see for GSP's sake, not really who he's against at this point. It does matter. At this point, GSP will be forced to move up, even if it's not exactly the best idea.

[i effin rule]

Heh, if you say it like it that, none of what we think matters, technically speaking. That's a poor argument right there. Dana can put GSP against Shonie Carter if he wanted to. He doesn't, because it's bad business. But if they wanted to, they can. Nothing stopping them. An extreme example, but it's not like Dana hasn't put up fighters with questionable records against better opponents.

 

And no one really wants to see GSP against anyone at this point... because there is simply no one as good as him. People see for GSP's sake, not really who he's against at this point. It does matter. At this point, GSP will be forced to move up, even if it's not exactly the best idea.

 

People also said that no one was as good as Fedor.

 

 

The above isn't a bash on Fedor, just pointing out that the "unbeatable" can and will eventually be beaten.

[LoNdOn]

The key to beating GSP is a guy who can mix up their strikes and can stuff his takedowns. Obviously this is far easier said than done.

 

On an aside, how similar do Nate Diaz and Rick Story look.

[The Shape]

People said Koscheck and Shields would have given him a hard fight. Look what happened there. If they couldn't, what makes you think these guys will?

 

Kos deluded himself into thinking he was the better striker and Shields forgot he was meant to be a wrestler. If one of these newer guys comes in with a game plan that plays to their strengths and at least doesn't self-sabotage, it'll actually make GSP win the fight rather than them just losing it. Still he'd be a huge favourite but there is a reason why they could do more than those two.

[i effin rule]

Kos deluded himself into thinking he was the better striker and Shields forgot he was meant to be a wrestler. If one of these newer guys comes in with a game plan that plays to their strengths and at least doesn't self-sabotage, it'll actually make GSP win the fight rather than them just losing it. Still he'd be a huge favourite but there is a reason why they could do more than those two.

 

Shields actually won the last two rounds of the fight on rwo of the judge's scorecards. Had one of the other three rounds gone slightly differently Shields would have won the fight.

[ampulator]

People also said that no one was as good as Fedor.

 

 

The above isn't a bash on Fedor, just pointing out that the "unbeatable" can and will eventually be beaten.

That's a fair point... except that I never said GSP is unbeatable. It's just that no one today will likely beat him. That's a big difference than "unbeatable". The former is idealistic, the latter is realistic.

 

Shields actually won the last two rounds of the fight on rwo of the judge's scorecards. Had one of the other three rounds gone slightly differently Shields would have won the fight.

 

Yeah, but it was a difficult fight to judge. I don't like the judging system that much. It was pretty clear that GSP won the fight as a whole.

 

Kos deluded himself into thinking he was the better striker and Shields forgot he was meant to be a wrestler. If one of these newer guys comes in with a game plan that plays to their strengths and at least doesn't self-sabotage, it'll actually make GSP win the fight rather than them just losing it. Still he'd be a huge favourite but there is a reason why they could do more than those two.

 

Who has been able to impose their will on GSP? Fitch couldn't. Shields couldn't. These are two people known to be very determined and dogged. And if they couldn't, who can? Literally, who can?

[Daffanka]

Heh, if you say it like it that, none of what we think matters, technically speaking. That's a poor argument right there. Dana can put GSP against Shonie Carter if he wanted to. He doesn't, because it's bad business. But if they wanted to, they can. Nothing stopping them. An extreme example, but it's not like Dana hasn't put up fighters with questionable records against better opponents.

 

And no one really wants to see GSP against anyone at this point... because there is simply no one as good as him. People see for GSP's sake, not really who he's against at this point. It does matter. At this point, GSP will be forced to move up, even if it's not exactly the best idea.

 

They managed to promote Dan Hardy as a legitimate threat against GSP coming off a win over Mike Swick and a load of other geeks. I don't think they'll have to stretch far to promote someone like Ellenberger or Story who actually have some memorable knockouts against people that aren't Rory Markham.

 

And at this point GSP's opponent is honestly pretty irrespective, people pay to see him fight because he's a huge star. As long as they can stick some of Ellenberger's knockouts in a loop with nu metal playing in the background and a Rogan voice over going "HE CAN DO THIS BUT HE CAN ALSO WRESTLE!!!!" and then GSP saying "this is my most dangerous opponent yet" they'll be fine.

[The Shape]

Shields actually won the last two rounds of the fight on rwo of the judge's scorecards. Had one of the other three rounds gone slightly differently Shields would have won the fight.

 

Mainly down to poking him in the eye though.

 

Who has been able to impose their will on GSP? Fitch couldn't. Shields couldn't. These are two people known to be very determined and dogged. And if they couldn't, who can? Literally, who can?

 

I'm not sure. I don't think it'll be a matter of will being imposed, whoever does beat him (and someone will) it'll be by KO again. Whether that's Silva or a wrestler with good enough boxing or a lucky shot, I don't know.

[ampulator]

They managed to promote Dan Hardy as a legitimate threat against GSP coming off a win over Mike Swick and a load of other geeks. I don't think they'll have to stretch far to promote someone like Ellenberger or Story who actually have some memorable knockouts against people that aren't Rory Markham.

 

And at this point GSP's opponent is honestly pretty irrespective, people pay to see him fight because he's a huge star. As long as they can stick some of Ellenberger's knockouts in a loop with nu metal playing in the background and a Rogan voice over going "HE CAN DO THIS BUT HE CAN ALSO WRESTLE!!!!" and then GSP saying "this is my most dangerous opponent yet" they'll be fine.

You miss my point. My point isn't about mareketability. Ellenberger is extremely marketable. But it's more about who can REALLY take GSP off his game... and there isn't one currently. And as much people point to Fedor, let's face it, he WAS close to unbeatable in his day. It doesn't matter if there is someone that can beat GSP in the future if said person isn't here right now to face. The problem is immediate, not some far off future we don't know about yet.

 

the the thing is, anyone fighting GSP has to be the near total package like GSP is. And htere isn't anyone like that right now. Not saying there can't be one in the future, but the problem is now. The future is later. We need a solution now. There are tons of deserve contenders to the Welterweight title itself, but not a whole lot deserving contenders to GSP himself.

 

I'm not sure. I don't think it'll be a matter of will being imposed, whoever does beat him (and someone will) it'll be by KO again. Whether that's Silva or a wrestler with good enough boxing or a lucky shot, I don't know.

 

GSP has fought strikers at Welterweight before. And most couldn't really deal with his wrestling. And you just said Silva... the question isn't if he can be beaten at Middleweight, but rather, is there anyone genuinely competitive with him at Welterweight.

[brashleyholland]

There are tons of deserve contenders to the Welterweight title itself, but not a whole lot deserving contenders to GSP himself.

 

That doesn't even make sense. GSP holds the title, they're one and the same thing. If you're not deserving of facing GSP, you're not deserving of the title. Simple as. There are tons of great fights for GSP right now, after Diaz there will be more.

 

 

the the thing is, anyone fighting GSP has to be the near total package like GSP is. And htere isn't anyone like that right now

 

And yet the last man to beat him was simply a decent BJJ guy (who hadn't submitted anyone since 2002) with heavy hands (which he'd never been able to KO, or even stop anyone with, ever), who also happened to be a part-time fighter and a midget. Now I'm not saying that kind of lightning has to strike twice for GSP to be beaten, just that any capable athlete in the UFC welterweight division has the ways and means. Any Given Sunday.

[ampulator]

That doesn't even make sense. GSP holds the title, they're one and the same thing. If you're not deserving of facing GSP, you're not deserving of the title. Simple as. There are tons of great fights for GSP right now, after Diaz there will be more.

 

It makes perfect sense to me. They AREN'T one and the same. You are wrong about one thing, but you aren't seeing the whole thing.

 

If you deserve to face GSP, you certainly deserve a title shot. That's true. But rhe reverse isin't. Just because you deserve the title shot, doesn't mean you deserve to face GSP. If GSP didn't hold the title, a lot more fighters would be credible contenders. But because he IS the champion, a lot of those aren't. It's as a simple as that.

 

And yet the last man to beat him was simply a decent BJJ guy (who hadn't submitted anyone since 2002) with heavy hands (which he'd never been able to KO, or even stop anyone with, ever), who also happened to be a part-time fighter and a midget. Now I'm not saying that kind of lightning has to strike twice for GSP to be beaten, just that any capable athlete in the UFC welterweight division has the ways and means. Any Given Sunday.

 

Anyone can pretty much beat anyone. Saying something is possible doesn't it's likely to happen. Heck, everyone has a small chance of beating GSP. But just because you have a small chance, only means just that, a small chance. Saying something is possible isn't all that relevant to what's likely to happen, and vice-versa.

[jesterx7769]

I'm not sure what GSP will do, but it will look a lot like the Rory McDnoald/Nate Diaz fight. GSP will press up against the cage, a lot. And he will take him down, a lot. But he won't be as daring as Rory is.

 

That isn't fair to Nick. I am a fan of watching the Diaz brothers fight but Nate clearly isn't as aggressive or have the killer instinct that Nick has. Nate likes to fight slower and try to catch guys (hence all his guard finishes in the UFC)

 

I actually like this fight alot, for the main reason that GSP will finally be fighting someone with balls. Shields/Kos/Hardy all p*ssed out in their fights, talking crap about going for broke then playing it safe and wussing out. Shields got three and half rounds of GSP with one eye and didn't do one serious takedown attempt or serious flurries coming from GSP's blind eye. Could you imagine if BJ or Hughes got GSP with one eye?

 

GSP may very well cruise but Nick's MMA submission game is great and anyone that actually has been watching his fights knows that. While Santos isn't known for being a world level grappler Nicks submission on him showed his killer instinct and how fast he can submit someone. If GSP takes it to the ground Nick def. has the ability to pull of a triangle or arm bar with those long limbs. After all anything can happen and it only takes one mistake, just ask Chael.

 

If its standing GSP will have to deal with Nicks height and reach and Nicks jab is for real.

 

This fight could end up boring if GSP can lean agaisnt Nick on the cage with the occasional takedown into side control so he ends up safer but the one thing you cannot take away from Nick is his ability to put on a fight and a show. He will taunt GSP with his hands down and talk trash on the mat even if he is losing but if it really is dominatio boredom on the ground Nick has at least shown he will go for broke which no one else has lately and GSP can get the finish.

 

Bottom line, just give me a finish or a well competitive fight. I would honestly like Nick to win eventhough its a long shot of course as GSP is the most complete MMA fight but just to shake things up but if GSP comes out and KO's him in the first round thats fine as well. I just want something different from one of the P4P fighters and his opponents (who equally share the blame)

[ampulator]

The only thing I concede is that Nick has the best chance of anyone right now, but it isn't a much of a chance. His track record against wrestlers with good BJJ is terrible. His best option is actually STANDING, but he can't do that because takedown defense is even worse than Nate's. Nick's chances of catching on the ground is lower than everyone thinks. If he wins, it's going to be a first round KO or TKO. Maybe GSP even taps to strikes. But that's about it.

[Daffanka]

You miss my point. My point isn't about mareketability. Ellenberger is extremely marketable. But it's more about who can REALLY take GSP off his game... and there isn't one currently. And as much people point to Fedor, let's face it, he WAS close to unbeatable in his day. It doesn't matter if there is someone that can beat GSP in the future if said person isn't here right now to face. The problem is immediate, not some far off future we don't know about yet.

 

the the thing is, anyone fighting GSP has to be the near total package like GSP is. And htere isn't anyone like that right now. Not saying there can't be one in the future, but the problem is now. The future is later. We need a solution now. There are tons of deserve contenders to the Welterweight title itself, but not a whole lot deserving contenders to GSP himself.

 

But everything is about marketability. GSP won't move up just out of competitive spirit if he's making millions of dollars per fight with comparatively little risk, nor will the UFC push him up if they're making millions of dollars per fight.

 

That isn't fair to Nick. I am a fan of watching the Diaz brothers fight but Nate clearly isn't as aggressive or have the killer instinct that Nick has. Nate likes to fight slower and try to catch guys (hence all his guard finishes in the UFC)

 

I actually like this fight alot, for the main reason that GSP will finally be fighting someone with balls. Shields/Kos/Hardy all p*ssed out in their fights, talking crap about going for broke then playing it safe and wussing out. Shields got three and half rounds of GSP with one eye and didn't do one serious takedown attempt or serious flurries coming from GSP's blind eye. Could you imagine if BJ or Hughes got GSP with one eye?

 

GSP may very well cruise but Nick's MMA submission game is great and anyone that actually has been watching his fights knows that. While Santos isn't known for being a world level grappler Nicks submission on him showed his killer instinct and how fast he can submit someone. If GSP takes it to the ground Nick def. has the ability to pull of a triangle or arm bar with those long limbs. After all anything can happen and it only takes one mistake, just ask Chael.

 

If its standing GSP will have to deal with Nicks height and reach and Nicks jab is for real.

 

This fight could end up boring if GSP can lean agaisnt Nick on the cage with the occasional takedown into side control so he ends up safer but the one thing you cannot take away from Nick is his ability to put on a fight and a show. He will taunt GSP with his hands down and talk trash on the mat even if he is losing but if it really is dominatio boredom on the ground Nick has at least shown he will go for broke which no one else has lately and GSP can get the finish.

 

Bottom line, just give me a finish or a well competitive fight. I would honestly like Nick to win eventhough its a long shot of course as GSP is the most complete MMA fight but just to shake things up but if GSP comes out and KO's him in the first round thats fine as well. I just want something different from one of the P4P fighters and his opponents (who equally share the blame)

 

I like Nick a lot and I think he's a pretty good fighter but his wrestling is god awful and his "MMA submission game" isn't actually that good.

 

His guard finishes include all of Jeremy Jackson after he camped out in the guard for about ten minutes, fat Gomi who'd never seen a gogoplata before, Mach who decided the correct way to defend an armbar was to jump into the fence and Cyborg who's Cyborg. He cracked Noons but couldn't submit him or even hold side control.

 

He's excellent at not taking any damage from within the guard but tapping people is a whole other thing.