Where to start in the x-men comics?

[ampulator]

Fantastic Four Sales, December 2010 and January 2011

Fantastic Four #586: 38,108

Fantastic Four #587 (death of Johnny Storm): 115,448

 

And that's from Johnny Storm's death, a character that hasn't supported his own comic in about 35 years.

It's nowhere near as effective as a tool back then in the 90's. I never said it didn't work, I said it was no longer as effective as it used to be. That might look like good jump, but back in the 90's, it was much, much more impactful.

[bigtplaystew]

It was more impactful because we were younger and didn't no better.

 

Superhero deaths arent gonna be permanent. It's all pro wrestling we know it's all a work when a popular hero dies, but we enjoy it anyway. No one can say comics fans dont liek death stories because they sell like crazy.

 

When MArvel had that series where it was nothing but superhero deaths (what was it, End Game or soemthing?) wasnt as popular because it didnt happen "in storyline" so it didnt have as much meaning. But when soemone dies... we all go nuts and buy the book. Its our fault they keep doing it.

[ampulator]

It was more impactful because we were younger and didn't no better.

 

Superhero deaths arent gonna be permanent. It's all pro wrestling we know it's all a work when a popular hero dies, but we enjoy it anyway. No one can say comics fans dont liek death stories because they sell like crazy.

 

When MArvel had that series where it was nothing but superhero deaths (what was it, End Game or soemthing?) wasnt as popular because it didnt happen "in storyline" so it didnt have as much meaning. But when soemone dies... we all go nuts and buy the book. Its our fault they keep doing it.

You miss my point. My point isn't that they aren't too few or even too many deaths. My point is if they do it, they do it all the way, or dont' do it all. If they keep doing this back and forth, eventually people stop caring. It's not a major reason, but one of the few reasons why comic books are slowly going. People lose their emotion connections. You can't constantly "hot-shot" events, because people become numb or bored to hot-shotting. Your only choice then is to amp it up even more, making the problem worse, or try to build something.

[Clarity]

You miss my point. My point isn't that they aren't too few or even too many deaths. My point is if they do it, they do it all the way, or dont' do it all. If they keep doing this back and forth, eventually people stop caring. It's not a major reason, but one of the few reasons why comic books are slowly going. People lose their emotion connections. You can't constantly "hot-shot" events, because people become numb or bored to hot-shotting. Your only choice then is to amp it up even more, making the problem worse, or try to build something.

 

There has been one Marvel 'death' that has seemed permanant.. Ben Reilly. Its been about 15 years and no revival

[cappyboy]

There has been one Marvel 'death' that has seemed permanant.. Ben Reilly. Its been about 15 years and no revival

 

And for some of us, that comes after our time. WHO?!!

[ampulator]

To be fair, it would make absolutely no sense to revive him. He's one of the few reasons why Peter Parker is who he is today.

 

And for some of us, that comes after our time. WHO?!!

 

That makes me feel old...even though I'm actually not.

[Clarity]

And for some of us, that comes after our time. WHO?!!

Easiest thing i can do is point you this direction

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_saga

 

However... YEARS OLD SPOILERS ALERT!!

 

Ben Reilly appeared back in 1994 and was based upon an old 70' story featuring the Jackel cloning Spiderman. The clone survived after being thought dead and took on the name Ben Reilly (taking Uncle Ben's first name and Aunt Mays maiden name)

 

Years later he returns and after medical tests, they find out that Ben is the original and Peter is the clone. Peter gives over the mantle of Spiderman and heads off to raise a baby with Mary Jane.

 

Later on, Peter is brought back into action when Norman Osborn resurfaces after being thought dead since 1973. He reveals that he had been pulling the strings for years and had even faked the test results proving Peter was the clone. He'd even had an agent poison Mary Jane causing her to 'lose' the baby.

 

In the final fight with Goblin, both Spidermen team up and defeat the Goblin, however Ben Reilly is severely beaten up and saves Peter from being impales on the Goblin Glider before finally disolving proving Peter was the original all along

[cappyboy]

 

Ben Reilly appeared back in 1994 and was based upon an old 70' story featuring the Jackel cloning Spiderman.

 

Okay. 1994 explains why it was after my time. I did make an attempt to rejoin comicdom in the early 90's after having read behind my brother as a kid. But I ultimately didn't like what I was seeing at the time and had given up anything that wasn't a TV crossover by 94.

[Clarity]

Okay. 1994 explains why it was after my time. I did make an attempt to rejoin comicdom in the early 90's after having read behind my brother as a kid. But I ultimately didn't like what I was seeing at the time and had given up anything that wasn't a TV crossover by 94.

 

Just did some figures, and it spanned 4 titles over 2 years with about 111 issues to read

[PoisonedSuperman]

Hardest part for me with the civil war thus far is keeping up with all the characters, I mean sure I know someone them but there are A LOT!!!

[praguepride]

To be fair, that's the best thing I have to say about it. At worst, it's bad. At best, it's not very interesting. Clarity is correct in teh basics, but each huge comic "war" indicates a semi-permanent shift in thought, if not in practice. With Civil War, it didn't really change the general direction of comic books.

 

Actually, this isn't uniquely a Marvel issue-DC comics is having this problem as well. Nothing in Mainstream Comics interest me these days.

 

I read most of the beginning comics that focusd on the Civil War and it was...just...so...boring.

 

 

It was kind of like the WWF/WCW Invasion Storyline. They had so much potential but I imagine in the background they had huge debates over who could beat up who. I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel comics writing room ended up sounding like a bad internet forum:

 

"Nuh-uh. Wolverine could TOTALLY take down Iron Man."

"But Iron Man could just fly away and shoot him from afar."

"Wolverine would totally get another X-men's help and just have Collosus throw him up into Iron Man."

"Nuh-uh. Iron Man would just shoot him out of the air..."

 

 

 

They had an excellent opportunity to really shake things up but besides Spider-man outing himself...nothing really changed. Sure this Hero had a brief clash with that Hero, but it amounted to nothing more then one big pissing contest where everyone just flexed their muscles and called it a day.

 

Then what few MAJOR impacts actually happened (namely Spiderman being revealed) were quickly retconned leaving very very little lasting impact.

 

Which bugs the HELL out of me because if they were just going to Retcon everything anyway they should have done so much more. Had Iron Man kill Captain America (or vice versa). Have Spidey killed by Wolverine. Have Magneto blow up Stark Industries.

 

You know, really shake thing up before the Wizard comes and returns everything back to normal.

[djthefunkchris]

You miss my point. My point isn't that they aren't too few or even too many deaths. My point is if they do it, they do it all the way, or dont' do it all. If they keep doing this back and forth, eventually people stop caring. It's not a major reason, but one of the few reasons why comic books are slowly going. People lose their emotion connections. You can't constantly "hot-shot" events, because people become numb or bored to hot-shotting. Your only choice then is to amp it up even more, making the problem worse, or try to build something.

 

Your over-reacting. You were specifically talking about Supes and Captain, probably Captain America moreso. SO the next time one of those two dies, you will expect a comback, and your not going to be fooled "again". I think maybe that's what it was, they fooled you, and now your desensitized.

 

However, comics count on the next generation, not necessarily YOUR generation. That's why Marvel made Ultimate Marvel stories, etc. Constantly looking to build up on that next generation of people that haven't experienced the things you have.

 

The thing is, they have been doing it since the beginning, and they will keep doing it till they are no longer around. So you either learn what they are doing, or drop them entirely, or even just have your own special one's that you feel are doing what you would like them to do.

 

My only point is that although your right, and really... No one is denying you that.... The other point which is sells, is why everyone knows it's going to happen again.

 

It's not like hero's drop dead every month, it's not like Superman or Captain America has died once a year or something...

 

This isn't the first time they killed off Captain America, and brought him back (for example). You know all about him dieing in the sea, and them bringing him back years later to head the Avengers. NO, technically he didn't die... but he did as far as readers were concerned back then. Does that upset you?

 

The whole reason he was ditched, is because he wasn't very popular, and without a war to write him in with, I guess they didn't have much for him in the "Hero" world, as it hadn't been as compelling as it become later on (during the 70s). So someone thought... Hey, we should bring back Captain America to head the Avengers, and when they did, he become more popular then ever. I would think that would make a company want to kill off other's more often, and bring them back (just not TOO often).

 

 

For example, Superman sells went through the roof when he died. They did a whole year without Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Why would they sacrifice sells for a whole year? Because they thought when they come back, it would create so much interest that sells would be so good that it would balance out and even make sells higher for a longer amount of time.

 

Then there is the fact that each company does have creative teams, that oversee the whole thing. They try to keep everything straight, but there are tons of comics by both companies (DC and Marvel), that sometimes things are just going to have to happen out of continuity (and we find out as soon as it happens, because someone goes "Oops... Hey, that didn't really happen, She-Hulk and that bad guy, no... That was She-Hulk from that other realm, messing with him. Our 'Real' She-Hulk would never do that."

 

Then of course, any drama that come from that, is squashed... "Figures" is probably the best reaction from fans.

 

You can say it's not good, but in all honesty... Controversy sells alot better then Girl Scout cookies.

[ampulator]

It's not about controversy. I don't care either way about it. It's about hot-shotting.you can say about "next-generation" all you want, but the next-generation doesn't care about comic books. They moved onto newer, more modern mediums. But that's another issue altogether...

[Hive]

Pretty much anything by Chris Claremont was amazing. I especially liked his work with John Byrne as artist and later Jim Lee. The Age of Apocalypse was some of the last X-Men stuff I felt was REALLY good.

[Hive]

Easiest thing i can do is point you this direction

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_saga

 

However... YEARS OLD SPOILERS ALERT!!

 

Ben Reilly appeared back in 1994 and was based upon an old 70' story featuring the Jackel cloning Spiderman. The clone survived after being thought dead and took on the name Ben Reilly (taking Uncle Ben's first name and Aunt Mays maiden name)

 

Years later he returns and after medical tests, they find out that Ben is the original and Peter is the clone. Peter gives over the mantle of Spiderman and heads off to raise a baby with Mary Jane.

 

Later on, Peter is brought back into action when Norman Osborn resurfaces after being thought dead since 1973. He reveals that he had been pulling the strings for years and had even faked the test results proving Peter was the clone. He'd even had an agent poison Mary Jane causing her to 'lose' the baby.

 

In the final fight with Goblin, both Spidermen team up and defeat the Goblin, however Ben Reilly is severely beaten up and saves Peter from being impales on the Goblin Glider before finally disolving proving Peter was the original all along

 

This was around the time I finally stopped reading Spider-Man, after several years of mis-treatment. The clone storyline was HORRIBLE. I liked NOTHING in it. It was too confusing, too retconning and had lame characters and substories. And outcome, declaring the clone to be the real Spider-Man? Oh man... thank God they realized their mistake and did another retcon to get the "real" Peter Parker back due to dwindling sales, but it was too long. And killing Doctor Octopus, killing aunt May (only to regret that as well and bring her back again after another lame story), bringing back Norman Osborn after so many years... sigh. The funny thing is that I really thought they couldn't get any worse after the terrible arc about Peter's parents returning from the dead... man, they really ruined Spider-Man for me.