Face vs Face/Heel vs Heel

[Blake Trask]

HBK was working heel against Taker - in the whole build up he was acting considerably more heel than just 'Ima challenge you'

[mrwhippy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="FlameSnoopy" data-cite="FlameSnoopy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No it's not. The Ryland Scale takes into account way more things than the star scale for example. A promotion with a face/heel divide is never going to have a perfect match with the same alignment wrestlers. That has never happened in real life and will never happen in TEW, since the crowd penalizes the match for the lack of heat or pop. The best face vs. face match that comes to my mind is Razor vs. Shawn from SummerSlam (1995), which I'd grade at four stars (or 4+ as a max). The action is great, psychology is great, wrestlers are great, they're dripping star aura and charisma, BUT the heat is not there. That's the same alignment penalty. If your fans are not supposed to care about the alignments, just switch it off from your product. There's a reason wrestling is built for good vs. bad (and even boxing and MMA have taken a page out of this book).</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So true. To get the combination of psychology and heat in a babyface match is almost impossible. Just look at the Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit tribute match. Unbelievable psychology in a proper old school contest but the heat just wasn't there. Admittedly it was a WCW crowd but the point stands.</p><p> </p><p> It literally takes two of the best performers going to pull it off. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels, WM25. Shawn heeled it up a bit in the build up but the match was very babyface.</p><p> </p><p> Was Austin vs. Rock at WM17 a babyface match? Maybe that could be one but that was so good because of its heat and selling rather than psychology.</p><p> </p><p> I might be getting away from the point here but TEW should probably give a slight penalty relating to psychology for a same alignment match, if it already doesn't.</p>

[proxiehunter]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I absolutely believe in the penalty. Finding a handful of examples doesn't disprove it. Having two babyfaces fighting each other does split the crowd (and not in the same way as MMA for Football) and takes away basic storytelling elements in typical matches. Two heels fighting each other should generally die a death. The crowd aren't going to boo both people. They're simple not going to care. Wrestling fans may get a kick out of it (and I'lll admit to LOVING the Aries & Roode vs Bad Influence matches in TNA) the lion's share of the crowd want someone to cheer. I remember a Haas vs Benjamin match on Smackdown years ago that was technically really cool... and got zero crowd reaction. <p> </p><p> So yeah, saying "... but Taker vs Austin" or "Punk vs Rock" or any combination of super-talented mega-stars is all well and good, but generally the penalty is fine. I got a 'B' from Sean McFly vs Alex DeColt, both babyfaces, in CGC, so the penalty isn't <em>that</em> bad.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've seen plenty of matches with a split crowd that were good matches and the split itself got the crowd worked up. The dueling chants really helped. Sometimes the crowd really <em>does</em> want to see which face is the better wrestler.</p>

[MikeSc]

<p>I tend to agree with the arguments against face vs. face. There needs to be somebody antagonizing the other in a one-on-one. Heel vs. heel can work because both guys can certainly be willing to use dirty tactics in their transitions, antagonize each other, generally be pricks and not hurt the match. </p><p> </p><p>

Something I think a lot of people miss about the "no face/heel divide" is that it in no way means there are not heels and faces. Japan is usually seen as not having that divide as the crowd cheers everyone. BUT there are certainly heels in Japan. Watch Koji Kanemoto, Shinjiro Ohtani or Tatsuhito Takaiwa (who I swear was a huge Stan Hansen fan) in New Japan in the 90s. Koji and Ohtani would just slap the piss out of whoever they were wrestling off of a rope break and then Koji would back off and smirk about it while the other guy fumed. Ohtani would use old school southern heel tactics like rubbing his forearm on the guy's face in the corner. Takaiwa just liked to beat the crap out of people and then slap them around a little bit on the ground. And the faces were not in any way required to do "face" things in return. Once Jushin Liger or El Samurai got slapped around a bit, they would get all fired up and give it back just as nasty as they got. And the crowd got fired up off of this kind of stuff. There are still heels and faces, they are just defined by the actions in the ring and who initiated the dickish kind of stuff.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, there are times in the major American promotions where the roles either are or ought to be reversed. Shows in Canada where Bret or Benoit or Jericho were heels at the time would often end up with the Canadian crowd cheering them and booing their opponent. The same could happen if you go someplace where a territories-era guy was really popular. It's kinda hard to make Flair a heel in the Carolinas. I guess a TEW instance of this kind of thing would be if you had a face jobber with no overness in the area going against a well-established heel. In all reality, yes the crowd generally boos that heel, but when he/she is going up against somebody they've never seen before will more than likely get a better reaction.</p><p> </p><p>

Honestly, I think that strict heel/face definitions are a relatively new thing in the wrestling world with the advent of WCW and WWF on national TV. Before it was all nationally televised a guy could be a heel in one territory and a face a week or a month later in a different territory. They had to know how to work as BOTH so that when the crowd booed them, they played the heel, but when the crowd cheered them and booed the other guy, they were the face.</p>

[Mattywood]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MikeSc" data-cite="MikeSc" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Honestly, I think that strict heel/face definitions are a relatively new thing in the wrestling world with the advent of WCW and WWF on national TV. Before it was all nationally televised a guy could be a heel in one territory and a face a week or a month later in a different territory. They had to know how to work as BOTH so that when the crowd booed them, they played the heel, but when the crowd cheered them and booed the other guy, they were the face.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Bringing that up reminds me of watching some videos I found on Youtube of the Von Erichs working in other territories. Here in Dallas/Fort Worth, they were mega babyfaces and were treated by the fans as if they were the Beatles, and they would do typical babyface things. But whenever they went to another territory like Florida for instance, they were heels, and worked as such. Kerry wasn't too good at it, probably because he was too nice of a guy in real life that it was hard to see him as a heel. But David was great as a heel, and he seemed to relish being a heel. I wonder if he had not died, if we would've gotten a family feud at one point with David turning on his family.</p>

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Matt Shannon" data-cite="Matt Shannon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Bringing that up reminds me of watching some videos I found on Youtube of the Von Erichs working in other territories. Here in Dallas/Fort Worth, they were mega babyfaces and were treated by the fans as if they were the Beatles, and they would do typical babyface things. But whenever they went to another territory like Florida for instance, they were heels, and worked as such. Kerry wasn't too good at it, probably because he was too nice of a guy in real life that it was hard to see him as a heel. But David was great as a heel, and he seemed to relish being a heel. I wonder if he had not died, if we would've gotten a family feud at one point with <strong>David turning on his family.</strong></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I actually booked him turning on Kevin and Kerry in one save I had going. Kerry has always been my favorite, so he eventually came out on top of the feud, but they both got a lengthy run with my main title.</p>