shipshirt Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I was just curious if it's a huge ding against the match grade to have a heel vs heel or face vs face match. I want to build up to a tag team heel vs heel match but don't want to turn either team babyface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrwhippy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 <p>I asked this question a while ago. It seems the face vs. face penalty is pretty minute because I had Brian Pillman (Midcarder) vs. Rey Mysterio (Enhancement Talent) pull off a 74 rated match in pop>perf WCW.</p><p> </p><p> Wouldn't like to try a heel vs. heel just for the fact in real life it couldn't work. I'd assume the penalty is bigger.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipshirt Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mrwhippy" data-cite="mrwhippy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Wouldn't like to try a heel vs. heel just for the fact in real life it couldn't work. I'd assume the penalty is bigger.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not sure where you are getting that from as it has worked in real life. Like anything else it just needs to be the right situation. But in the territory days they would do "battle of the bullies" type matches with two heels squaring off. </p><p> </p><p> Thanks for the info.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mrwhippy" data-cite="mrwhippy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I asked this question a while ago. It seems the face vs. face penalty is pretty minute because I had Brian Pillman (Midcarder) vs. Rey Mysterio (Enhancement Talent) pull off a 74 rated match in pop>perf WCW.<p> </p><p> <strong>Wouldn't like to try a heel vs. heel just for the fact in real life it couldn't work.</strong> I'd assume the penalty is bigger.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Apparently you didn't watch WCW at all. Heels fought heels all the time and the matches got over well enough.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Trask Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It's a bit of a hit. the match wouldn't automatically bomb but it is hurt some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrwhippy Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Apparently you didn't watch WCW at all. Heels fought heels all the time and the matches got over well enough.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I wouldn't say they were all fully-blown heels. The late 90s blurred the lines between faces and heels, TEW doesn't represent that.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalberico Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 <p>I guess no one watched Money in the Bank earlier this year then when the Smackdown MITB match was all heels. That match went over quite well with the crowd.</p><p> </p><p> I just think a heel vs. heel or face vs. face match having any type of penalty at all is stupid. It pretty much causes you to shy away from certain storylines...like friend vs. friend, or maybe two heels who hate each other battling over a title shot</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrwhippy Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 It's not about whether it's happened in the past or not. TEW is very old school in that faces and heels are black and white, the game doesn't like them going head to head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhd1 Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I recently had two main event heels face each other in a TV main event that graded a B, which is about what I'd expect from any main event match featuring either of those two alone, so even the heel vs heel penalty isn't enormous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beejus Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 The late 90s and its "gray booking" is why I've been sad that the medium face/heel divide was taken out of TEW13. TEW10 still worked off of almost an attitude era engine. 13 is more modern, where in at least the big promotions, faces are faces and heels are heels again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Truthfully I didn't even notice a difference between strong and medium face/heel divide which is probably why it was taken out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxiehunter Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 There's an easy way to get rid of the penalty, and as far as I know no drawbacks to doing so, but depending on how much slack the owner gives you you may need to use the editor. Just turn off the face/heel divide. That doesn't mean you can't book as if this wrestlers a face and that wrestler is a heel but you won't get penalties for their gimmick being "wrong" for their alignment or for them facing each other in a face vs. face or heel vs. heel match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLCJR4LIFE Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The penalty actually isn't that big and I do it periodically for guys very low on the card to maximize the amount of sort of..."good worker vs good worker" matches I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLCJR4LIFE Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jalberico" data-cite="Jalberico" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I guess no one watched Money in the Bank earlier this year then when the Smackdown MITB match was all heels. That match went over quite well with the crowd.<p> </p><p> I just think a heel vs. heel or face vs. face match having any type of penalty at all is stupid. It pretty much causes you to shy away from certain storylines...like friend vs. friend, or maybe two heels who hate each other battling over a title shot</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's grounded in reality.</p><p> </p><p> Same alignment matches in WWE are exceptionally rare.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TLCJR4LIFE" data-cite="TLCJR4LIFE" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's grounded in reality.<p> </p><p> Same alignment matches in WWE are exceptionally rare.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I wouldnt quite say that. The past few years alone has saw WWE have more than its fair share of face vs face matches.</p><p> </p><p> Bryan and Orton had about 5 matches in the summer before Orton had his proper turn. Undertaker streak matches recently (except Punk), Rock vs Cena, etc there have been a really good amount</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLCJR4LIFE Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <p>And given that the number of matches in WWE in a year is in the hundreds, it's safe to say that a handful of same alignment matches qualifies as exceedingly rare.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Also Bryan was teasing a heel turn during those series of matches with babyfaces. Same way Miz teased a heel turn in his series with Kofi.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameSnoopy Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jalberico" data-cite="Jalberico" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I just think a heel vs. heel or face vs. face match having any type of penalty at all is stupid. It pretty much causes you to shy away from certain storylines...like friend vs. friend, or maybe two heels who hate each other battling over a title shot</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No it's not. The Ryland Scale takes into account way more things than the star scale for example. A promotion with a face/heel divide is never going to have a perfect match with the same alignment wrestlers. That has never happened in real life and will never happen in TEW, since the crowd penalizes the match for the lack of heat or pop. The best face vs. face match that comes to my mind is Razor vs. Shawn from SummerSlam (1995), which I'd grade at four stars (or 4+ as a max). The action is great, psychology is great, wrestlers are great, they're dripping star aura and charisma, BUT the heat is not there. That's the same alignment penalty. If your fans are not supposed to care about the alignments, just switch it off from your product. There's a reason wrestling is built for good vs. bad (and even boxing and MMA have taken a page out of this book).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 If I am in a situation that I have to book heel vs. heel or face vs. face I just tease a turn but take it back off after the match you don't get the penalty but again its not going to be a A* either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="FlameSnoopy" data-cite="FlameSnoopy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>A promotion with a face/heel divide is never going to have a perfect match with the same alignment wrestlers. That has never happened in real life and will never happen in TEW</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You could very well argue a few matches have been perfect, if not pretty dang close.</p><p> </p><p> HBK vs Undertaker at WM25</p><p> CM Punk vs Cena at MITB (could dispute that Punk was the heel but whatever)</p><p> HBK vs Bret at WM 12</p><p> Rock vs Austin at Wm 17</p><p> </p><p> You would be hard pressed to find better matches based solely on the face that one worker was a heel for the match.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameSnoopy Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You could very well argue a few matches have been perfect, if not pretty dang close.<p> </p><p> HBK vs Undertaker at WM25</p><p> CM Punk vs Cena at MITB (could dispute that Punk was the heel but whatever)</p><p> HBK vs Bret at WM 12</p><p> Rock vs Austin at Wm 17</p><p> </p><p> You would be hard pressed to find better matches based solely on the face that one worker was a heel for the match.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well I haven't seen Punk vs Cena.. (I know it's one of the few matches from WWE post-2010 that I have to see. I only watch WM's live, no other wrestling, and I was spoiled from it when it happened, so I still haven't! <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />) Razor vs. Shawn is better than HBK vs. Bret. (Which was a bit lackluster considering that two of the best wrestlers in NA of 1995 and 1996 clashed in a 60 minute match.) It should've been great, but it was slightly too slow and lacked heat like Razor vs. Shawn. I have it rated at 4-. Rock vs. Austin is a bad example, considering that one of the biggest heel turns happened DURING that match. So you can't say that it was a face vs. face match in the first place. I've seen that match many times and I wouldn't even place it in the same caliber as these other matches though. This is coming from a massive Stone Cold fan.</p><p> </p><p> However, I give you HBK vs. Taker and can only say "The exception proves the rule." It's one of only two matches I have rated at 5* (so far, not a perfect record as far as watched matches go, since like I said, I don't watch wrestling anymore). Completely forgot about it. Damned be thee Showtime! <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> By the way, this reminds me I have to see the HBK vs. Taker Hell in a Cell match. I had a project to go through some 90s WWF PPVs a few years ago but lost my hard drive like 1 or 2 ppvs before the event it took place in!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="FlameSnoopy" data-cite="FlameSnoopy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well I haven't seen Punk vs Cena.. (I know it's one of the few matches from WWE post-2010 that I have to see. I only watch WM's live, no other wrestling, and I was spoiled from it when it happened, so I still haven't! <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />) Razor vs. Shawn is better than HBK vs. Bret. (Which was a bit lackluster considering that two of the best wrestlers in NA of 1995 and 1996 clashed in a 60 minute match.) It should've been great, but it was slightly too slow and lacked heat like Razor vs. Shawn. I have it rated at 4-. Rock vs. Austin is a bad example, considering that one of the biggest heel turns happened DURING that match. So you can't say that it was a face vs. face match in the first place. I've seen that match many times and I wouldn't even place it in the same caliber as these other matches though. This is coming from a massive Stone Cold fan.<p> </p><p> However, I give you HBK vs. Taker and can only say "The exception proves the rule." It's one of only two matches I have rated at 5* (so far, not a perfect record as far as watched matches go, since like I said, I don't watch wrestling anymore). Completely forgot about it. Damned be thee Showtime! <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> By the way, this reminds me I have to see the HBK vs. Taker Hell in a Cell match. I had a project to go through some 90s WWF PPVs a few years ago but lost my hard drive like 1 or 2 ppvs before the event it took place in!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Undertaker vs. Triple H hell in a cell at wm was also a 5 star match that was face vs. face. Hell it was one of the best matches I have ever watched. I suggest you watch that one as well. There is just not that many ppl nowadays that can pull those off anymore hints thats why WWE is still relying on part-timers to sell their big 4 pay per views. I had better stop because I am almost trailing off into a different subject.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I didnt care for the HIAc match at all and felt it was pretty bad tbh, but it still gets great acclaim so it does belong in the discussion I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhenomenalPat Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I didnt care for the HIAc match at all and felt it was pretty bad tbh, but it still gets great acclaim so it does belong in the discussion I guess.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agreed. I thought that match was highly over rated. If you loved it, then great. But it was ok in my opinion.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Collin Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37413" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You could very well argue a few matches have been perfect, if not pretty dang close.<p> </p><p> HBK vs Undertaker at WM25</p><p> CM Punk vs Cena at MITB (could dispute that Punk was the heel but whatever)</p><p> HBK vs Bret at WM 12</p><p> Rock vs Austin at Wm 17</p><p> </p><p> You would be hard pressed to find better matches based solely on the face that one worker was a heel for the match.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In the MITB match there is no question that Cena was treated like the heel. Punk going for the title against the vanilla champion in his home town? There is no way that match wasn't going to have incredible heat. It's a shame that TEW can't replicate that 'Hometown heat' really.</p><p> </p><p> The others were incredibly popular workers with loads of momentum going into the biggest event of the year. They were the matches the fans most wanted to see and were never going to struggle for heat.</p><p> </p><p> I have suggested in the past that certain matches are marked as 'dream matches', perhaps these matches could also be exempt from face v face penalties.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 <p>I absolutely believe in the penalty. Finding a handful of examples doesn't disprove it. Having two babyfaces fighting each other does split the crowd (and not in the same way as MMA for Football) and takes away basic storytelling elements in typical matches. Two heels fighting each other should generally die a death. The crowd aren't going to boo both people. They're simple not going to care. Wrestling fans may get a kick out of it (and I'lll admit to LOVING the Aries & Roode vs Bad Influence matches in TNA) the lion's share of the crowd want someone to cheer. I remember a Haas vs Benjamin match on Smackdown years ago that was technically really cool... and got zero crowd reaction. </p><p> </p><p> So yeah, saying "... but Taker vs Austin" or "Punk vs Rock" or any combination of super-talented mega-stars is all well and good, but generally the penalty is fine. I got a 'B' from Sean McFly vs Alex DeColt, both babyfaces, in CGC, so the penalty isn't <em>that</em> bad.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.