The NJPW Discussion Thread

[Rogue]

Naito is defending both belts against Evil at Power Struggle

 

Fourth time in as many months? Gross.

[Jaysin]

Kota wants to unify the IC and HW titles. NJPW has way too many titles as it is, so I'm all for it.

 

Really stoked for Sanada vs Kota

[Rogue]

I like the idea of having two separate titles. Having them together works with the limited roster they have at the moment, but that's just my personal preference. If anything needs to change, I think Wrestle Kingdom needs to go back to being one night. I was into the two-night concept last year, but this year all I thought was 'there's no reason these cards couldn't be together on one night - besides the Switchblade/Ibushi/Naito situation.'

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rogue" data-cite="Rogue" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="40971" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I like the idea of having two separate titles. Having them together works with the limited roster they have at the moment, but that's just my personal preference. If anything needs to change, I think Wrestle Kingdom needs to go back to being one night. I was into the two-night concept last year, but this year all I thought was <em>'there's no reason these cards couldn't be together on one night - besides the Switchblade/Ibushi/Naito situation.'</em></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Kota's rationale, which I agree with is that there's no in character reason for anyone to challenge him for JUST the IC title. Why would anyone want a mid card belt when they can challenge the same guy for the main event belt?</p><p> </p><p> Kota would either need to relinquish the belt or be stripped of it.</p>

[Rogue]

From that perspective, I get it. I think this "Winner Take All" deal they've had since WK14 put them in a hole. I can't find any other way they could ideally split the belts up besides having IC headline WK Night 1 and HW headline WK Night 2.

 

New Beginning tour's in Hiroshima two nights early next month but you couldn't really sell two straight nights of Ibushi vs. SANADA.

[Derek B]

Splitting the belts is definitely a tricky thing to do, which was why bringing them together is one of the few ideas I've never been a fan of from NJPW. But there are ways out of it that make sense and could tell a good story. In my head, the best one is that Ibushi defends the IC belt on some tour shows against "lesser" guys... people who haven't gotten close to deserving a World title match yet, but who would regularly be challenging for the midcard titles. Maybe a Jeff Cobb type, who is really talented but you wouldn't expect up there. IC title changes hands on tour show.... gives a reason for a World title match down the line that is different, raises the credibility of Cobb a bit and obviously Cobb loses the World title match.

 

You could also have a situation where maybe Ibushi goes full Ibushi and decides to be a super fighting champion where he puts the IC belt on the line in every G1 match he's involved in and loses it that way. No one would expect him to go unbeaten in that so it doesn't make him lose credibility and the new champ again looks credible, and might get a World title show down the line.

 

It's early, but those are quick solutions I've got. Hopefully they go with something like that. I'm still left wondering what the original plan was for this before 2020 happened.

[guyver3]

Where are you folks coming up with the IC title being a midcard title? It’s been held by top of the card talent almost exclusively for the last 6 or more years outside a few people like Fale and Elgin. It’s been semi main event at wrestlekingdom pretty much every year except for Omega/Jericho. If anything the US title is the title they should do away with in my opinion as it has never been important on its own.

[Derek B]

You can replace the word "midcard" with "secondary" if you prefer that term, the content of the message is still the same. It's a secondary prize within the company that has a very prestigious lineage, but is still not the main championship so the idea of anyone challenging for the IC title but NOT the World title makes sense. Unless there is a way to differentiate the two again, then it makes sense for Ibushi to treat them as if they are unified. Similarly, it would also work with the booking ideas I presented as a way to pull the championships apart too, without actually making the secondary championship FEEL like a secondary championship. NJPW have done a great job building up the IC belt to feel like a huge prize, and it is.... but it's still second to the world title.

 

For referemce, since I had a look at it myself out of curiosity, MOST holders of the IC title haven't yet gone on to win the World title, or haven't helf the World title before, with only 6 of the 15 champions having held the IWGP World title. I didn't know that myself. Here is a quick link to a wiki of former champions.

[Rogue]

To tag onto Derek's point, the IWGP Heavyweight Championship's been reserved for the very top of the company through at least the last decade - save Styles and EVIL's reigns. Styles is obviously one of the best of his generation, but you wouldn't really expect a guy making his debut in the company to win the top belt. EVIL's reign only as the interim leader of Bullet Club (and even then I couldn't buy that) never sat well with me given to what I was used to level-wise of the previous champions (I didn't start watching regularly until 2017.) Had Jay been in Japan and able to go for the Heavyweight title at this time I feel he would've had the shot at Summer Struggle. Had they had EVIL go for the IC belt and Jay go for the HW belt that would've been better.

[guyver3]

I was definitely more off put by the term used because as you stated Derek the IC has been made to feel just as important. When there’s only been 8 different people to hold the world title in the last 10 years it’s something I think the promotion really needs so unifying the titles I think would be a step backwards but I’m just a casual fan so hopefully they have a decent story set up to split them

[Jaysin]

Might be a work, but Jay White says his last contractually obligated booking with New Japan was New Year's Dash and he happened to take the fall.

[Rogue]

I'm positive it's a work. Supposedly, there was interest on AEW's side in bringing him in two years ago and he shot it down as he was just starting a lengthy multi-year deal with NJPW. His post-WK promo came off to me like someone at their wit's end. Set such high goals for himself where suddenly the winner of the match attained 'god-like status' or whatever and he couldn't get the job done.

[Mootinie]

<p>I don't agree with the unification of the belts nor having somebody hold both. I understood that they did it for business reasons to sell the first two-leg Wrestle Kingdom in 2020 but that deal was a harder sell this year. I'm aware that COVID played a part but the second night's attendance was reported as noticeably down compared to the first night (nearly halved) and the card in general was much weaker on paper. </p><p> </p><p>

The whole experiment hasn't worked for me. I'm not sure who was supposed to benefit but if it was being used to put Naito over and then Ibushi, it's questionable whether it was necessary in the first place. The jury is still out on whether it helped EVIL, he never even got to make a successful defence so... who knows.</p><p> </p><p>

It makes all the sense to split the titles from Ibushi and keep them seperate from one another for the forseeable future since the main event scene is more stacked than ever now.</p>

[guyver3]

I don’t see why they didn’t have Ibushi challenge for the IC title on night one since he lost the G1 briefcase he shouldn’t have still gotten the match for both titles. That could’ve split the titles and would’ve created a better story for night 2 with Naito and White going from semi main last year on night 1 for the IC title to main event of night 2 for the World title.

[Rogue]

<p>My take on EVIL's reign is he was kind of just there to fill time/gaps on the schedule. Have him go over Naito at Dominion, Naito's going to get a rematch and the title back in Jingu, then EVIL's going to get a rematch and bam, you've got three matches in one feud. Fills up the schedule with a limited roster without burning your big-name matchups (Naito v Okada, Naito v Ibushi, Naito v Tana.)</p><p> </p><p> Then again, you could've had Okada either win the G1 or challenge Naito in Jingu considering he was the previous champion.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="guyver3" data-cite="guyver3" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="40971" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don’t see why they didn’t have Ibushi challenge for the IC title on night one since he lost the G1 briefcase he shouldn’t have still gotten the match for both titles. That could’ve split the titles and would’ve created a better story for night 2 with Naito and White going from semi main last year on night 1 for the IC title to main event of night 2 for the World title.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, that was a headscratcher. Story-wise, it didn't make sense. "Yeah, you lost the right to challenge me, but, here's a shot anyway." Just put WK back to one night already.</p>

[Mootinie]

I guess there's also an argument to be made that considering COVID was going to impact business anyway, this was the time to book things that they otherwise wouldn't. I can see that side of things.

[Rogue]

Give a HW/IC title shot to the company's top junior. Get real weird with it. I'd say you're onto something with them wanting to throw major wrenches in the booking with the reduced attendances.

[Jaysin]

Well the IC and HW titles are officially unified and a new belt is on the way to represent the new World Heavyweight Championship.

 

People on social media are acting like this is the end of the world and it's quite humorous.

[CGN91]

Well the IC and HW titles are officially unified and a new belt is on the way to represent the new World Heavyweight Championship.

 

People on social media are acting like this is the end of the world and it's quite humorous.

 

Yup. And it's not even that bad to be honest. People saying they'll erase the history of the IWGP Heavyweight belt simply don't get it, yes the lineage will be different but in kayfabe this title is the "ultimate" title, the waaaay bigger prize now (and Hashimoto, Muto and others won't be forget). Sure they simply could have get rid of the IC title like ROH did it back in 2006 with the Pure title, but they chose the other way like it was when the Triple Crown was created.

[Mootinie]

Will Ospreay winning the rubbish new unified belt before Kota Ibushi can get a single title defence is peak New Japan.

[Big Roguey]

Ospreay winning the unified belt in an angle that started after he decided to randomly attack his girlfriend is some sterling booking. Not problematic at all.

[Jaysin]

On a good note, Henare's new look is amazing. Reminds me of Chono.

 

Just read Shingo is Will's first challenger, really hoping Will drops it in his first defense.

[Jaysin]

Finally reactivated my New Japan World account. Mostly for old stuff honestly as I'm not a fan of some current decisions.

 

Looking for suggestions on classic content.

[Jaysin]

We live in a world now where Bryan Danielson is a free agent. So many dream matches

[Jaysin]

I'm no where near a huge Will Ospreay fan and honestly I find him incredibly annoying and cringe worthy most of the time, but despite that, his match with Shingo ended up being real good. Still not sold on Will as a main eventer, but the match is definitely worth watching.

 

It takes a little to really kick into high gear, but good nonetheless. Doesn't deserve the "6 stars" lame ass Meltzer is giving it though.