Potential Mods forum change

[Mammoth]

As a "modification maker" myself, my stuff has always been freeware as I'm a fan of Total Extreme Wrestling first and a "modification maker" second. I don't think anyone (please correct me if I'm wrong) buys Total Extreme Wrestling simply to make modifications for other people, but it's because they love the game. I don't believe these people would release the modifications either if they didn't want the community to enjoy them. Should that mean people should be able to use their work? Yes, honestly I do. That's why my stuff has always been freeware because the way I see it, people are only taking the stuff they like to make their modifications better and ultimately make the community better. The only thing I've ever asked people to do is to credit me if they take something I've done, which is what I do any time I take something someone else has used/made. I think as long as that becomes something of a requirement, nobody should have an issue with this because if you're releasing stuff just for personal honour and worrying about someone having the same amount of respect as you just because they only did a "little bit" then you're not looking at the whole picture.[/2cents]

[franticloser]

<p>I'm with K-Nection on this one, with things like title histories, locations, and company history/shows/events. It would be easier if everyone just shared the data, otherwise it's a bunch of busy work that delays or even kills off mods that would have been good to have. </p><p> </p><p>

I remember in the EWR days, I had a folder for probably 10 different years ranging from like 1988-the modern time of that year (man d I miss RaveX). Even going back to 2013 we had a wide berth of time periods that you could chose from depending on your mood or preference. </p><p> </p><p>

Some might say we don't need a mod for every year, and sure I could agree (though I do like having that option, as a lot could happen between say 1987 and 1988) it seems that 2016 has fewer mods then any version before. Now this could be just that fact that with each new game comes more data and things to research and calculate(going back to the first pint of certain things that are just the same thing in every game because it's just straight facts and therefore should be a shared community database that can be used by all mods.) Or if it's people burning out/growing out of the game or wrestling/life getting in the way. </p><p> </p><p>

But if it's the former having things like I mentioned in the first paragraph would be a great help in cutting down on time for new mods coming out, for everyone in the community who builds mods, which is great for both creator and user. If it's the latter, then those mods from say 2010 that haven't been touched by the creators and said creators aren't even active any longer, should be free to be used for new mods. This allows new mods to build on the past, and perfect their craft for new work.</p><p> </p><p>

I've been around this community for a long time, and recently there has been a quite a bit of new users, and who knows if there may be the next great modders in that group. We should do our best to help them a long, like I'm sure a lot of modders here where helped by those that came before. Removing the strict rule, and allowing the forum to police itself should go a long way to helping that I think.</p>

[Jaysin]

<p>No.</p><p> </p><p>

I can see using old databases where the creator is no longer active or something like that, but that's it.</p>

[hammerglenn]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Beejus" data-cite="Beejus" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Ever since I became a part of The Mod Squad, I got to see things from the other side of the coin. I know some of you are going to roll your eyes at this statement because it is starting to sound a little recycled, but it bears saying, and saying loudly for those in the back who may not be hearing it. The tedium of pouring over websites for knowledge, putting real life money into buying old magazines and wrestling programs, downloading old shows from shady websites to watch a particular wrestler, just to make a worker who everyone knows of as "some jobber who was on WCW Saturday Night one time" into a well-rounded person in the game. Earlier, I saw it mentioned of someone putting together the championship reigns from the Hardcore title. As much of a pain as doing that is, that is child's play. That's something that I could do in an evening or two, and I'm not even a "creator" member of the group. There were arguments among members on what a particular stat meant so that they could determine how to give it to a mere handful of wrestlers, most of whom players are never going to play with anyways. And after going through all that, all the stress of doing all those things, along with trying to continue having a real life off of the internet, with families and jobs and such; then you finally release a full mod, and everyone is so happy. </p><p> </p><p> And then the next day, you see someone change who the champions are and release it as a mod for the previous month, and get all the adulation that you just did for none of the work.</p><p> </p><p> So yeah, I'm voting no.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This! Mod makers should have the only say if someone wants to use their mod. Most mod makers will let you use their data, but at least give them an idea of what your intentions are for your mod. (i.e. a few workers, what year you are planing on for the mod, etc.) If not, most will just tell you no.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gabriel" data-cite="Gabriel" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Yes, we will probably lose some mod makers who don't believe that sharing their work is right. That's unfortunate, but I also believe, like Adam, that we will see more mods being released for different time periods based on the fact alone that potential mod makers can get the bulk of their data started by cherry picking from other mods.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The thing is every mod is different, so just picking and choosing from different mods will not make the mod run smoothly. For example, a few mod makers have their cruiserweights set to small as others have them as lightweight. There's also stats that can be nerfed or even worker's personality. </p><p> </p><p> I see your point, but would you rather have quality or quantity mods? As it is right now, the ones who do create mods, spend months if not years researching and creating these mods and the end result is a quality mod.</p><p> </p><p> If we allow anyone to import data from mods without permission, then we will end up with quantity mods, most of them of poor quality.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="franticloser" data-cite="franticloser" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm with K-Nection on this one, with things like title histories, locations, and company history/shows/events. It would be easier if everyone just shared the data, otherwise it's a bunch of busy work that delays or even kills off mods that would have been good to have. <p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I see your point, but you'd feel differently if you've worked on say locations day in and day out for 2 or 3 months just to see everybody use it as there base without asking for permission.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> We've been discussing some ways to re-energise the Mods forum as it's gone quite quiet over the past year, so we're floating the following suggestion to see what people think.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It goes quiet every time a TEW has been out for over two years and a new one has been announced. You know this better than anyone.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The proposal is simply to drop the current rule where people need to explicitly get permission to use any of the data that someone else has worked on. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> What's changed since the rule was introduced? We voted on this already remember? When we did there was only one RW current day mod and only a handful of historical mods. Do you remember? Because I do.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> There's two main reasons for this. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Please be more transparent. Reason number one is game sales, you want to sell more and that's completely fine and to be expected, just be honest about it Adam.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Firstly, I think some people are put off from taking part as they feel daunted by having to start from scratch - being able to import other people's data, whether that's a full scenario or just factual things like title histories, might act as a helping hand.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So instead of making it easier in game and not such a mammoth daunting task your solution is to backflip on a rule post fact of mod makers putting faith in it to work and pour thousands of more hours into mods. Seems reasonable <img alt=":rolleyes:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/rolleyes.png.4b097f4fbbe99ce5bcd5efbc1b773ed6.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Secondly, <strong>I'm confident that the forum can effectively police itself. </strong>That is, if someone just takes another person's work and releases it as their own without making any changes, I suspect the community will just ignore it, letting it fall into obscurity.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is where I almost stopped reading. You either believe this and I have no words that could describe how ridiculous this statement is or you're straight up lying. Just search your own post history in the mod forums Adam, it shows your point is inane.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This also has the advantages that mods and data that are no longer being actively worked on, or where the creator is no longer active, can be recycled or reopened.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This advantage already exists though, mod makers do it all the time. If there's no one to ask for permission people go right ahead and no one stops them. You're proposing a change that already exists here.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I've attached a poll, so if you have an interest in this subject please cast a vote when you have a chance - it'll be up for quite a while, so there's no hurry. If people are in favour of it then we'll introduce the new rule sometime in 2019, giving advance warning so that anyone who doesn't want their work to be shared can remove it.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Remove your work from the internet, that will work <img alt=":rolleyes:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/rolleyes.png.4b097f4fbbe99ce5bcd5efbc1b773ed6.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> This entire post is disingenuous Adam.</p>

[franticloser]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I see your point, but you'd feel differently if you've worked on say locations day in and day out for 2 or 3 months just to see everybody use it as there base without asking for permission.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I was proposing more of a shared work for those type of things, so a group of modders all work together together and pool resources, to make a comprehensive data set of locations, title histories, shows/events, and possibly even companies. That can be edited and added to as time goes on. This would be maintained by all modders and can be used by all.</p><p> </p><p> On a side note, if I spent a lot of time and work into putting something together, and people wanted to use it for their own work because it was that good, then I wouldn't mind it that much. I've had my work in other aspects used this way and it gives me a feel of accomplishment. </p><p> </p><p> I also feel that the people who are going to use things like this from other mods, and are going to put in extra work to make quality stuff, will ask for permission whether it's a rule or not. Those that are just looking to make things quickly and with no desire to care about quality, are naturally going to fall off anyway.</p>

[K-Nection]

<p>I'll drop one final point for the day. A lot of people can see the writing on the wall. You have several hive minds debating this. You have a community that is starving for more mods.</p><p> </p><p>

Before the rule you had a large influx of mods both big and small and the community decided what rose and what fell. When the rule came into place you had a giant stagnation that occurred that forced most modders to team up (Because they had to make things from scratch) and most of those projects fell apart before they even got out the door in betas. </p><p> </p><p>

There is one solid group of modders that are only active enough to throw around their "Intellectual Property" but most of the time choose to hang out on other forums because they view themselves as [input whatever you want here]. The modding scene has never died a year after a release and that is pretty much what happened with TEW 2016.</p><p> </p><p>

IP trolling is not good for the community and its becoming abundantly clear.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'll drop one final point for the day. A lot of people can see the writing on the wall. You have several hive minds debating this. You have a community that is starving for more mods.<p> </p><p> Before the rule you had a large influx of mods both big and small and the community decided what rose and what fell. When the rule came into place you had a giant stagnation that occurred that forced most modders to team up (Because they had to make things from scratch) and most of those projects fell apart before they even got out the door in betas. </p><p> </p><p> There is one solid group of modders that are only active enough to throw around their "Intellectual Property" but most of the time choose to hang out on other forums because they view themselves as [input whatever you want here]. The modding scene has never died a year after a release and that is pretty much what happened with TEW 2016.</p><p> </p><p> IP trolling is not good for the community and its becoming abundantly clear.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The rules were introduced in 2012, you weren't even a forum member when they were made but please continue to spread misinformation to fit your narrative. </p><p> </p><p> The comments about our group I'll refrain from pointing out the stupidity in. Also you must be forgetting I have screenshots of your groups chat including various insults about the GDS community and other fictional mods. Maybe this is on your mind because your group is guilty of what you're claiming we do. Surely Adam will ban you now though given the rules he's laid down regarding people spouting off lies and nonsense to try and insult other people.</p>

[ConcutioCaelum]

<p>I think that it should be changed. I have noticed from my time on here that the modding has slowed down. It could be that it is just because the game has been out for a while, but it is definitely not because the new game was announced. Is TEW 2020 being announced this month the reason Summer of Punk still hasn't come out? </p><p> </p><p>

I've noticed as well, that out of the mod makers weighing in, there have been those for it, and there were a few against it. The majority of the actual creators, themselves, that are against are members of The Mod Squad.</p><p> </p><p>

The best argument for the change I have seen has been simple: the real world mod creators (rather modern day or historical) aren't getting permission from WWE,any other promotion, or wrestler to use their names or likenesses. You are protected by law from them doing anything because you are not trying to make money off your work. People using your work to make their own mods, are also not trying to make money. </p><p> </p><p>

For the mods like Thunderverse, it is a little different. That is an original database just the default database. Ultimately, no one making a mod using that database is using it to make money. That being said if I see a mod made based off someone else's database, and the original creator isn't happy about it, then I won't download said mod.</p><p> </p><p>

I also feel that saying Adam should take his content off the internet, because you aren't happy with a proposed change, is a bit immature. Everyone was having a mature conversation until that entire, condescending post.</p>

[hammerglenn]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> There is one solid group of modders that are only active enough to throw around their "Intellectual Property" but most of the time choose to hang out on other forums because they view themselves as [input whatever you want here]. The modding scene has never died a year after a release and that is pretty much what happened with TEW 2016.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Umm, what other forums????</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ConcutioCaelum" data-cite="ConcutioCaelum" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I also feel that saying Adam should take his content off the internet, because you aren't happy with a proposed change, is a bit immature. Everyone was having a mature conversation until that entire, condescending post.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Get used to this level of discourse, Adam sets the bar for the rest to follow here.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="hammerglenn" data-cite="hammerglenn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Umm, what other forums????</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The fictional one where we sit and plot world domination, the one in K-Nections head.</p>

[ConcutioCaelum]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Genadi" data-cite="Genadi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Get used to this level of discourse, Adam sets the bar for the rest to follow here.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If you have such a problem with everything he has to say and do, then why are you still on here? Why are you still modding his games? </p><p> </p><p> Even if that is the case, then it should be up to you to be better than that.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ConcutioCaelum" data-cite="ConcutioCaelum" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If you have such a problem with everything he has to say and do, then why are you still on here? Why are you still modding his games? <p> </p><p> Even if that is the case, then it should be up to you to be better than that.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Last time I logged was over six months ago, I don't visit here for that very reason. I was linked to this post because it's yet another instance Adam has conducted himself in a disingenuous hypocritical manner. I still mod because I like the game, my enjoyment playing and modding has nothing to do with the maker. </p><p> </p><p> Let's stick to the main posts points though.</p>

[K-Nection]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Genadi" data-cite="Genadi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The rules were introduced in 2012, you weren't even a forum member when they were made but please continue to spread misinformation to fit your narrative. <p> </p><p> The comments about our group I'll refrain from pointing out the stupidity in. Also you must be forgetting I have screenshots of your groups chat including various insults about the GDS community and other fictional mods. Maybe this is on your mind because your group is guilty of what you're claiming we do. Surely Adam will ban you now though given the rules he's laid down regarding people spouting off lies and nonsense to try and insult other people.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Hi I didn't use any names so if you have a guilty conscience that's your prerogative. Just because I made my membership official in 2013 doesn't discount the fact I was a lurker long before that.</p><p> </p><p> As for screenshots of stuff I've said whatever post them if you want. I really don't care either way. If nuking my membership makes the forum a better place by all means I'll go back to being an anonymous lurker <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="hammerglenn" data-cite="hammerglenn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Umm, what other forums????</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Lets see wrestling Nexus and discord come to mind real quick</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Hi I didn't use any names so if you have a guilty conscience that's your prerogative. Just because I made my membership official in 2013 doesn't discount the fact I was a lurker long before that.<p> </p><p> As for screenshots of stuff I've said whatever post them if you want. I really don't care either way. If nuking my membership makes the forum a better place by all means I'll go back to being an anonymous lurker <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If you were a long lurker you're lying then or your memory is mistaken. It's quite simple. One of the main reasons the rules were introduced is because the mod section was dead in the water with no new mod makers starting. But you know this because as you said you were here for it, so you must be lying to fit your narrative as I said.</p><p> </p><p> I legit find it amusing you're still obsessed with us and the fictional world you've created that we live in. It speaks volumes about where you're coming from in regards to this issue <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[RingRider]

<p>Alright...let's just keep the forum on track from this point. I'd rather not have to lock it because I know a lot of people have strong feelings on the proposed rule change. </p><p> </p><p>

Let's keep it to the pro's and con's of the proposed rule change and refrain from mud slinging please.</p>

[K-Nection]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Genadi" data-cite="Genadi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If you were a long lurker you're lying then or your memory is mistaken. It's quite simple. One of the main reasons the rules were introduced is because the mod section was dead in the water with no new mod makers starting. But you know this because as you said you were here for it, so you must be lying to fit your narrative as I said.<p> </p><p> I legit find it amusing you're still obsessed with us and the fictional world you've created that we live in. It speaks volumes about where you're coming from in regards to this issue <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah because people come up with IP laws when there is austerity <img alt=";)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/wink.png.686f06e511ee1fbf6bdc7d82f6831e53.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Genadi" data-cite="Genadi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Last time I logged was over six months ago, I don't visit here for that very reason. I was linked to this post because it's yet another instance Adam has conducted himself in a disingenuous hypocritical manner.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Other forums in my head right?</p>

[RingRider]

I'm going to lock this forum. I'll let Adam decide if he wants to reopen it tomorrow but we're moving away from the point here. Valid points and concerns have been raised on both sides but I'm not seeing anything all that new or insightful being added to the discussion at this point.

[Adam Ryland]

Thanks for the input everyone. I would have liked to keep this open for much longer so that we could take the temperature of the board as a whole, but given the extreme level of rancour I don't think it's worth keeping the thread open - it's clearly only going to get ugly.

 

We're going to shelve the proposal for now because, although it seems popular with most, clearly there's a considerable amount of bitterness out there and it simply isn't worth dealing with all the trouble this would cause. What we'll do is see whether the mods forum picks up post-TEW2020 and act accordingly.