Adam Ryland Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 We've been discussing some ways to re-energise the Mods forum as it's gone quite quiet over the past year, so we're floating the following suggestion to see what people think. The proposal is simply to drop the current rule where people need to explicitly get permission to use any of the data that someone else has worked on. There's two main reasons for this. Firstly, I think some people are put off from taking part as they feel daunted by having to start from scratch - being able to import other people's data, whether that's a full scenario or just factual things like title histories, might act as a helping hand. Secondly, I'm confident that the forum can effectively police itself. That is, if someone just takes another person's work and releases it as their own without making any changes, I suspect the community will just ignore it, letting it fall into obscurity. This also has the advantages that mods and data that are no longer being actively worked on, or where the creator is no longer active, can be recycled or reopened. I've attached a poll, so if you have an interest in this subject please cast a vote when you have a chance - it'll be up for quite a while, so there's no hurry. If people are in favour of it then we'll introduce the new rule sometime in 2019, giving advance warning so that anyone who doesn't want their work to be shared can remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeemuFoundation Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>My opinion is that of an outsider, so take it as such. My whole thing with TEW since 2004 has been that I've made my own mods since I'm used to having vastly different views on wrestling compared to most online fans. So, I'm not really a part of the Mods forum.</p><p> </p><p> I am, however, someone who's done quite a lot of extensive rom hacking back in the day. And how it usually goes in rom hacking communities is that people are free and allowed to borrow code and other work as long as they give credit. My code, for instance, has been used and borrowed a bunch of times, and my opinion is that if something I wrote helps make the community and rom hacking better, I'm all for it. All I want is the credit.</p><p> </p><p> And it's like you said: communities such as these are quite good at policing themselves. People tend to give credit and play nice. Otherwise, they're shunned by the community, which works as the disincentive.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingRider Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>While I see the benefits of this proposed change and think it could energize the modding community, I feel that a rule like this needs to adopted by the creators themselves and not blanket forum policy. I worry that many of the most popular mod makers will simply stop producing content of this rule is adopted... especially if they are not active while this poll is open. I think the community will reinvigorate itself when the new game launches as it always does when ever a new game debuts regardless of the outcome of this vote.</p><p> </p><p> In my experience, even the most controlling mod makers tend to bless others taking their work as long as permission is asked and credit is given. As always, the rub occurs when the user is no longer active. Maybe there should be a "public domain" rule where is the creator has been inactive on the forums for certain length of time (maybe 2 years?) that the mod is considered freeware?</p><p> </p><p> Hopefully I'm wrong and the most popular mod makers speak on this issue and defend it's merits and this remains a controversy/drama free discussion.</p><p> </p><p> Just to be clear, while I did vote no, I would love to see this happen.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>I always found it incredibly silly when a mod would get offended about their "RW" mod being borrowed and made better. The whole you didn't ask for permission when using that title history or Bio write up is ludicrous to me when that original mod maker obviously didn't get WWE's permission to include all of their likenesses and characters.</p><p> </p><p> If you just ripped a mod whole cloth and dumped it without changes not only would that be lazy but I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother would condemn them for it. But the only scenario I see that happen in is when someone takes a mod from an earlier database and runs it through the converters. But if you don't take the time to fix the weight classes and broadcasters then why bother?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RingRider" data-cite="RingRider" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I feel that a rule like this needs to adopted by the creators themselves and not blanket forum policy.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's what we were aiming for with this - it's not so much that we're making a blanket policy, it's that we're removing the one that currently exists in order to let the community police itself.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I always found it incredibly silly when a mod would stomp and cry about their "RW" mod being borrowed and made better.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Let's please try and avoid this sort of inflammatory wording in posts in this thread - I don't think you meant to, but when you use things like "stomp and cry" you're implying a childishness that is going to really irritate people. I'd really like for this to remain a civil thread and not descend into the usual back-and-forth.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Let's please try and avoid this sort of inflammatory wording in posts in this thread - I don't think you meant to, but when you use things like "stomp and cry" you're implying a childishness that is going to really irritate people. I'd really like for this to remain a civil thread and not descend into the usual back-and-forth.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Point taken.... I changed it</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatIsraeliGuy Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 My problem with this is that as it is rn, it is already a bad habit where people use mods from as far back as 2010 as a base to current mods, this rule change further encourages to use mods from outdated games, we should encourage building mods from scratch because at this point it’s gone out of hand if we will see mods that originated in 2010 in the upcoming TEW 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenCycle Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>It's so hard for me to decide if I think this is a good idea or a bad idea. </p><p> </p><p> The intention of the rule is pretty great in a perfect world, but I do think that it could lead to a lot of flame wars as people take someone's work, change like 10 things, and release as their own. I also see a lot of scenarios where people argue about who made the mod. </p><p> </p><p> One thing that I'm wondering about is, hypothetically right now if I go and take one of, uh, Hive's mods and edit a bunch of stuff and post it, without him bringing up that I broke this forum rule, would Hive actually care that I took his mod? How willing are these guys willing to share their content already?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="DatIsraeliGuy" data-cite="DatIsraeliGuy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My problem with this is that as it is rn, it is already a bad habit where people use mods from as far back as 2010 as a base to current mods, this rule change further encourages to use mods from outdated games, we should encourage building mods from scratch because at this point it’s gone out of hand if we will see mods that originated in 2010 in the upcoming TEW 2020</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I fail to see if a mod come from 2010 on how that makes it inferior or broken based on that fact alone? Building a mod database is very very very painstakingly time consuming. And if one person has taken the time to list the complete history of the Hardcore title then I see no point in using that data as a reference instead of redoing that process over again to say I just made it from scratch.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BrokenCycle" data-cite="BrokenCycle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One thing that I'm wondering about is, hypothetically right now if I go and take one of, uh, Hive's mods and edit a bunch of stuff and post it, without him bringing up that I broke this forum rule, would Hive actually care that I took his mod? How willing are these guys willing to share their content already?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I personally seen a certain (collection of members/team) get really upset at a new creator for a database conversion on a mod that wasn't touched or updated since 2010 and cited this very rule to throw weight around on a RW mod that almost none of those members had a hand in creating. The original mod maker was completely unaware of those actions but turned out they were ok with the use of the data but it was too late because the new creator deleted their posting. The use of this rule is stifling to new creators in my opinion especially to people that want to relive some of those great mods on the current gen games.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingRider Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's what we were aiming for with this - it's not so much that we're making a blanket policy, it's that we're removing the one that currently exists in order to let the community police itself.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This seems a slippery-slope to me. In my opinion, the content creators should have the ultimate say on what happens to their work. I fear if mod-makers lose the say on what happens to their own work, they may simply choose not to share their work any longer. Again, while I would love the <a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=522312&highlight=mission+statement" rel="external nofollow">Genadi's old 2013 mission statement</a> reinstated, the key difference between this rule and that mission statement is that it came from the creators themselves. It was with their blessing that the work was deemed Freeware. </p><p> </p><p> I never really understood why the 2016 iteration of the game caused a recant of this mission (although at it's core I think it was because multiple creators were at work on a single mod and it became increasingly more difficult to attribute proper credit due to the multiple authors and copies of similar databases...or something). That said, I feel that the community needs to respect the hours of labor (including research, tweaking of stats, bios, etc.) that go into creating a quality database. If a mod maker shares a database for us to play, the community wins. If they deem their work open to modify and redistribute, all the better. Ultimately however, it was still labor that created the product--they should choose what happens with it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RingRider" data-cite="RingRider" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I never really understood why the 2016 iteration of the game caused a recant of this mission (although at it's core I think it was because multiple creators were at work on a single mod and it became increasingly more difficult to attribute proper credit due to the multiple authors and copies of similar databases...or something). That said, I feel that the community needs to respect the hours of labor (including research, tweaking of stats, bios, etc.) that go into creating a quality database. If a mod maker shares a database for us to play, the community wins. If they deem their work open to modify and redistribute, all the better. Ultimately however, it was still labor that created the product--they should choose what happens with it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agree and disagree with this and I'll make my case on both.</p><p> </p><p> On unique universes such as The Rockverse, T Verse, London Verse ect. I think those should definitely be taken up with the respective creators of those universes/databases because the ownership is clear, concise and unique to the forum.</p><p> </p><p> Now the part I do disagree with is Real World Mods. When the OG mod makers can't even take the time to ask for permission from any of the federations they are using their likenesses then I don't think they should throw their weight around because X creator used my X-Pac instead of creating his own from scratch.</p><p> </p><p> I think it mostly comes down to effort and quality of the change.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 The only rule I would put out there is to give proper citation over where you got your original basic data from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>I'm in agreement with the idea simply because then as a community we can create comprehensive data to use as a standard (for a baseline every mod can have) and everyone can chip in.</p><p> </p><p> Modders have to go through tedious title histories and employment histories for the history of wrestling and most things they personally aren't invested in. If it was more acceptable to have people pitch in here or there as a community effort to create something vast where the participants are more invested in getting those fine details in for their favorite small promotions.</p><p> </p><p> Beyond title and employment histories for the real world, we can use bigger gimmick files, injury packs, or even back in the day it would have been beneficial for storyline packs.</p><p> </p><p> I feel like it would encourage the forum to work together more as opposed to a bunch of individual artists throwing out their own things. The only thing I'd be wary of are custom renders and logos as it's proper art and not just data.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingster Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I always found it incredibly silly when a mod would get offended about their "RW" mod being borrowed and made better. The whole you didn't ask for permission when using that title history or Bio write up is ludicrous to me when that original mod maker obviously didn't get WWE's permission to include all of their likenesses and characters.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Remember that there are also fictional mods like the Thunderverse, which are not a mirror of the real world, but instead a completely new creation. I'd be mad if I had created one of those mods and someone else just tweaked it slightly and called it his own.</p><p> </p><p> I've never run a single show in any other database than the default one, so I don't care too much about this possible new rule.</p><p> </p><p> If I understand it correctly, the new policy is not "You can use any mod without the permission of the creator", but more like "GDS will not police the use of existing mods, it's instead up to the creators to decide whether they want permission or not." As long as the latter is the case, I think this new rule is fine, makes sense and I'd be in favour of it.</p><p> As long as the mod-makers have the power over their own work, everything should be fine.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingRider Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If I understand it correctly, the new policy is not "You can use any mod without the permission of the creator", but more like "GDS will not police the use of existing mods, it's instead up to the creators to decide whether they want permission or not." As long as the latter is the case, I think this new rule is fine, makes sense and I'd be in favour of it.<p> As long as the mod-makers have the power over their own work, everything should be fine.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is my overall point, said better and more concisely.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Remember that there are also fictional mods like the Thunderverse, which are not a mirror of the real world, but instead a completely new creation. I'd be mad if I had created one of those mods and someone else just tweaked it slightly and called it his own.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah I addressed that a few posts down...</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>On unique universes such as The Rockverse, T Verse, London Verse ect. I think those should definitely be taken up with the respective creators of those universes/databases because the ownership is clear, concise and unique to the forum.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> To be honest you really don't see anyone changing those unique mods. But we have never really been at a point where those original creators stop posting their work either.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastwood Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>I share similar concerns with RingRider, many mod makers are (justifiably so) rather protective of their work and a forum policy of allowing anyone to edit and re-release it as they please could end up turning off many of the more popular creators. Unless I'm misunderstanding and mod makers would be still permitted to explicitly prevent that by putting a disclaimer or something in their thread?</p><p> </p><p> I agree the state of the mods forum needs a boost as it's been really quiet for a while now. That said I still see that as only being temporary, as we get closer to the release of TEW2020 I can guarantee it will receive a major boost from both the hype and from creators polishing their mods before the new game drops.</p><p> </p><p> Have you considered maybe 6 months-ish from the estimated release to hold some kind of contest(s)? Perhaps something like 'Best Picture Pack' or 'Best Skin' with a public poll where the community can vote. The winner could receive a copy of TEW2020 at launch?</p><p> </p><p> <strong>EDIT: </strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If I understand it correctly, the new policy is not "You can use any mod without the permission of the creator", but more like "GDS will not police the use of existing mods, it's instead up to the creators to decide whether they want permission or not." As long as the latter is the case, I think this new rule is fine, makes sense and I'd be in favour of it.<p> As long as the mod-makers have the power over their own work, everything should be fine.</p></div></blockquote>If this is what the new policy would be then I'm favor too. My only concern would be how old and/or abandoned mods would be handled. Their creators might no longer be around to say one way or the other how they want their stuff used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Eastwood" data-cite="Eastwood" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If this is what the new policy would be then I'm favor too. My only concern would be how old and/or abandoned mods would be handled. Their creators might no longer be around to say one way or the other how they want their stuff used.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm in favor of a public domain rule especially if it was a mod from an earlier version of TEW. If you borrow a mod from 2016 run it through the converter and change it to work with the newest one then I say fair game.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhd1 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>There's a few different strands to this. There is the "hard" data (by which I mean the stats, popularities, personalities etc. - anything defined by a number or something similar), the "soft" data (bios, primarily) and the art. I believe Adam's proposal relates to data and not art (i.e. use of other people's renders and logos would remain under the same rules as before).</p><p> </p><p> If someone wants to use the hard data from the ThunderVerse to build up another mod, for example, importing Timothy Hawk to use his stats for a character who would behave similarly, then I see no issue with it - after all, it's just a set of numbers. Technically someone could create an entirely new mod using only the stats present in the ThunderVerse. It'd probably be a lot of hassle to balance, and you'd have a good 2,500 bios to write, but it'd be doable. The thing is, we'd probably never know.</p><p> </p><p> If someone used the characters themselves from the ThunderVerse and tried to pass it off as their own, the likelihood is that someone would notice and the mod would get shot down very quickly. Similarly, if someone created a ThunderVerse "add-on" without permission people would quickly become aware of this. The LondonVerse began using the ThunderVerse locations (or was planning to; London certainly asked permission to do so); they took an extremely long time to write but at the same time it helped out a fellow modmaker. If I'd stumbled across them in another mod I'd be irritated but only because the modmaker hadn't thought to ask permission.</p><p> </p><p> This applies less to real world mod examples however, particularly now mod makers are (understandably) falling back on the organic bios for the less well known wrestlers. Those bios can often contain information taken from other sources (which I am by no means belittling, I've been there and it's a horribly arduous task!) and all you'd be forcing someone to do is to hunt down the same information you've already found.</p><p> </p><p> As mentioned further up this thread, this is something we've had before and I think the community will be able police it sufficiently.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beejus Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>I see a lot of unsure voices and a lot of "hell yeah" voices so far, so I guess that can leave me to be the first counterpoint for now.</p><p> </p><p> I can completely see where you're coming from in wanting to make a change that could potentially reinvigorate the mod making process, and that's cool. I just want to state first and foremost that I understand, because mods are a huge lifeblood of the entire TEW experience; I personally haven't opened a different Verse game since TEW04, and it lasted me promptly one day before I realized I didn't enjoy it and never did so again. Does that make me not a good player? No, it just means I didn't enjoy the taste so I never ate at that restaurant again. Point is, I know there are a lot of players like me who only play in the real world, and having more real life mods like there were in TEW05's heyday might be great to see. I used to even be one of the people who wondered who these mod makers were, blocking people from making spinoffs of their mods so that we had a lot of different years to play.</p><p> </p><p> However.</p><p> </p><p> Ever since I became a part of The Mod Squad, I got to see things from the other side of the coin. I know some of you are going to roll your eyes at this statement because it is starting to sound a little recycled, but it bears saying, and saying loudly for those in the back who may not be hearing it. The tedium of pouring over websites for knowledge, putting real life money into buying old magazines and wrestling programs, downloading old shows from shady websites to watch a particular wrestler, just to make a worker who everyone knows of as "some jobber who was on WCW Saturday Night one time" into a well-rounded person in the game. Earlier, I saw it mentioned of someone putting together the championship reigns from the Hardcore title. As much of a pain as doing that is, that is child's play. That's something that I could do in an evening or two, and I'm not even a "creator" member of the group. There were arguments among members on what a particular stat meant so that they could determine how to give it to a mere handful of wrestlers, most of whom players are never going to play with anyways. And after going through all that, all the stress of doing all those things, along with trying to continue having a real life off of the internet, with families and jobs and such; then you finally release a full mod, and everyone is so happy. </p><p> </p><p> And then the next day, you see someone change who the champions are and release it as a mod for the previous month, and get all the adulation that you just did for none of the work.</p><p> </p><p> Cover or remake songs (from what I understand) require full, legal, written permission from the owners of their material before it can be released to the public. There are some gray matters there, but that seems to be the rule. Just as food for thought, if Adam released TEW2020 and then someone went in over the course of a day to change the color scheme and a few headings before releasing it as "Turnbuckle Extra Wrasslin' 2k20" I would imagine there'd be some pretty hefty implications just from a copyright standard, let alone doing it after all the work he put into it.</p><p> </p><p> I can already hear the "But that's different"'s or "But no"'s or "But wait"'s lining up, but the fact is that it isn't that hard to ask a creator for their work. You don't need to get full written permission with lawyers and everything, and while I know some of the big names don't hit the GDS board all that often, there are ways of finding them, or there are others (like myself) who could see a post and can direct their attention toward it. If you're willing to put in all the time to create and release a mod, then what's that one extra step worth to you?</p><p> </p><p> And the board already has times it had to police this in the lifespan of TEW16, and everyone involved felt it got ugly. I'm just leaving that subject at that.</p><p> </p><p> So yeah, I'm voting no.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tana Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>We've been discussing some ways to re-energise the Mods forum as it's gone quite quiet over the past year, so we're floating the following suggestion to see what people think.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Perhaps that's just because there's less interest and people playing the game? It's been out over two years and with the next game announced I doubt anyone is going to start any huge projects.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The proposal is simply to drop the current rule where people need to explicitly get permission to use any of the data that someone else has worked on. <p> </p><p> There's two main reasons for this. </p><p> </p><p> Firstly, I think some people are put off from taking part as they feel daunted by having to start from scratch - being able to import other people's data, whether that's a full scenario or just factual things like title histories, might act as a helping hand.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Why not let the people making the mods decide that for the mods that they are making? As you say it's a ton of work to create a full world from scratch so shouldn't they have the choice what happens to it?</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Secondly, I'm confident that the forum can effectively police itself. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <img alt="tenor.gif?itemid=4616916" data-src="https://media1.tenor.com/images/486c5af4f5227a2d8e72fc23415e9a09/tenor.gif?itemid=4616916" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That is, if someone just takes another person's work and releases it as their own without making any changes, I suspect the community will just ignore it, letting it fall into obscurity.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agree with this.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This also has the advantages that mods and data that are no longer being actively worked on, or where the creator is no longer active, can be recycled or reopened.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Would you want to add an arbitrary length of time to say if e.g. Person 1 hasn't visited the forums in 365 days their mods become free for others to take and build off as a base?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>The argument about cover songs doesn't really hold up though, because you only need the permission of the artist and/or label who own the rights if you are making money off of it. If you release the work for free, you are clear to do basically whatever you want with it.</p><p> </p><p> A more apt comparison would be with film, as fan edits, even when free, are technically illegal.</p><p> </p><p> That being said, nobody makes any money from mods being released. Adam and GDS may indirectly benefit from it as more mods equal more potential interest from people who may be on the fence about purchasing.</p><p> </p><p> I think, so long as no one is flat out claiming someone else's work as their own (for example, they at least say "Credit goes to several other mods for a lot of the work included") that should cover it. Ideally, I'd like to see a rule enforced where modmakers have to list each of the mods that they have pulled from, like a bibliography for a term paper.</p><p> </p><p> Yes, we will probably lose some mod makers who don't believe that sharing their work is right. That's unfortunate, but I also believe, like Adam, that we will see more mods being released for different time periods based on the fact alone that potential mod makers can get the bulk of their data started by cherry picking from other mods.</p><p> </p><p> I personally have been working on a mod for quite some time now, where I am basically creating everything from scratch, and it's incredibly time consuming. There have been mod makers who I've reached out to who are okay with me using their work, and that has been very beneficial, but I've also been turned down by people whose work would have made it possible for me to release two or three beta versions of it by this point.</p><p> </p><p> I believe that, in general, the mod making community isn't as much of a community as it used to be, and a large reason for that is that there have been a few people or groups who have established themselves with previous works and kind of taken the lead. That's great, and I hope that they continue to work on things, but at the same time, I believe strongly that free content for this game should be open source entirely.</p><p> </p><p> The more people working on things, the better. This can also benefit mod makers who are currently opposed, as they also will be able to cherry pick from other data to help them complete their own.</p><p> </p><p> Every iteration of TEW seems to see the amount of mods drop from the previous version. That is in part due to the fact that more data is required with each version as the game becomes more in-depth and better, but I don't think the negatives outweigh the positives here, as more mods equals more choices.</p><p> </p><p> An idea that I think might also help out is an official post, pinned at the top of the mods subforum where all of the mods are listed and rated by the users would be a great idea. Also, anyone who makes a mod and claims to have done so from scratch, but is obviously lying should just be banned outright.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nickman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <p>I voted “I don’t know” because I couldn’t figure out how to see the question until I’d voted!</p><p> </p><p> Now that I’ve read the entire thread, I would probably say I have to side most with Beej’s post, as these guys put a LOT of time into creating quality mods for us. My favourite all time Mod (and I’ve played this through iteration after iteration after iteration of this game) is Genadi’s Montreal Aftermath Mod. So basically I’m happy with whatever rule means I get the new version of Genadi’s Mod on my version of TEW2020 as soon as is physically possible. So whatever rule keeps Genadi happy would keep me happy and I strongly suspect he’d err towards the No side of th argument.</p><p> </p><p> I do understand everyone’s points here though, K-Nection raises some pretty good ones too, but ultimately I feel this should be up to the Mod creators themselves. I’ve never created Mods myself, but I feel if I spent literally months creating a project I’d be a little miffed if someone ripped it off and claimed it as their own.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Nection Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Beejus" data-cite="Beejus" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ever since I became a part of The Mod Squad, I got to see things from the other side of the coin. I know some of you are going to roll your eyes at this statement because it is starting to sound a little recycled, but it bears saying, and saying loudly for those in the back who may not be hearing it. The tedium of pouring over websites for knowledge, putting real life money into buying old magazines and wrestling programs, downloading old shows from shady websites to watch a particular wrestler, just to make a worker who everyone knows of as "some jobber who was on WCW Saturday Night one time" into a well-rounded person in the game. Earlier, I saw it mentioned of someone putting together the championship reigns from the Hardcore title. As much of a pain as doing that is, that is child's play. That's something that I could do in an evening or two, and I'm not even a "creator" member of the group. There were arguments among members on what a particular stat meant so that they could determine how to give it to a mere handful of wrestlers, most of whom players are never going to play with anyways. And after going through all that, all the stress of doing all those things, along with trying to continue having a real life off of the internet, with families and jobs and such; then you finally release a full mod, and everyone is so happy. <p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In all that time and research that you poured in did you reach out to WCW, the shady websites, the copyright holders or the wrestler themselves for permission to be included in your mod? </p><p> </p><p> I understand that this is a pride blood and sweat thing but you can't take this stance if you don't take the same measures. Legally you don't need permission from these entities for a freeware mod and expecting that from others especially when most of the members of the group are not very active on these boards could be considered a bit hypocritical.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And then the next day, you see someone change who the champions are and release it as a mod for the previous month, and get all the adulation that you just did for none of the work.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How often you think that would happen? Also the community as a whole would condemn them to oblivion.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46137" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Cover or remake songs (from what I understand) require full, legal, written permission from the owners of their material before it can be released to the public. There are some gray matters there, but that seems to be the rule. Just as food for thought, if Adam released TEW2020 and then someone went in over the course of a day to change the color scheme and a few headings before releasing it as "Turnbuckle Extra Wrasslin' 2k20" I would imagine there'd be some pretty hefty implications just from a copyright standard, let alone doing it after all the work he put into it.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It depends...If you are making a boat load of cash that is when they sue you into an oblivion. If you are just singing into your phone and posting it on YouTube they just take your ad revenue. Also there is an interesting point about the full, legal, written permission thing when you are using real life characters and trademarks and trying to say that nobody can use "your" creation.</p><p> </p><p> I'm not trying to discount what you guys are doing because yes it is a labor of love. But at the same time taking such a defensive stance on Intellectual Property that you don't actually own nor ask permission for is a little much.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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