The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[Matt_Black]

To change the topic, I applaud Jon Moxley's bold decision to adopt a Mr. Clean gimmick.

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

CW: Nazis, Fascism, Hate Speech

After last night, Tony from a business perspective needs to send Moxley away for a while -- to somewhere like New Japan where most fans aren't watching Dynamite -- to get away from the heat.

From a moral perspective, Tony should release Moxley for deciding to play a neo-nazi on national television at all. 

Jon Moxley really took things to far quoting Mussolini for his new Neo-Nazi character on Dynamite. Because it was used in a comedy skit on The Office about a decade ago, fans will catch that Moxley quoted Benito Mussolini -- though in The Office, Dwight Shrute wasn't a Nazi, he was pranked by Jim into quoting a Nazi. 

(The Office joke was still in bad taste). 

Fans are right to be angry with AEW for letting Moxley do this angle. Even in WWE, a more morally neutral company, fans would consider Moxley's character way, way out of line. 

Moxley's evil, genocidal philosophy isn't being treated as evil and genocidal enough. Among other things, the announcers should be open calling Moxley out and condemning Moxley, but with the way the vignettes are shot, Moxley's ideas go frustratingly unchallenged. 
 

When MJF does something terrible, the announcers immediately and strongly condemn MJF. Why aren't they strongly condemning neo-nazi Moxley?

AEW sold fans on their inclusivity and their strong business ethics. Moxley doing a literal neo-nazi gimmick could really hurt AEW's brand. 

(Also, Moxley doing this is morally wrong and messed up)

[hailthebulldog]

I've never gotten a "neo-nazi" vibe from Moxley's character. He is interested in getting rid of Bryan, and then reclaiming his perceived top spot in the company. Nothing about his messages, aside from the sourcing of this quote, has even been close to "evil, genocidal philosophy" I'm sorry you feel this way but I don't think the majority of people do. Also Moxley isn't morally bad for playing a character. Just like an actor wouldn't be morally bad for playing a bad character imo.

[John Lions]

I gotta say I love the juxtaposition of a post about Moxley embracing a "Mr. Clean" gimmick and one condemning him for a "Neo-Nazi" gimmick back to back.

[Hollywood]

No nazis in wrestling! That includes former WWE Superstars Ron and Don Harris.

[Big Roguey]

Yeah, there isn't anything inherently on that sort of spectrum apart from an ill chosen quote (With the caveat that potentially it being a Mussolini quote would go over the heads of people, I didn't pick up on it myself until it was pointed out after the promo aired). I know there has been particular chatter about it being based on Romper Stomper too but nothing that's been confirmed/anything more than loose connections. It seems a little hyperbolic to rush to talks of people being released - I very highly doubt that everything that's been done has been some sort of maddening shoot angle so it'll have been ran past people (YMMV on the effectiveness of the people it's being ran past). So far all he's done is take out Bryan in the old Terry Funk/Ric Flair spot with the bag, body three lower card workers with his group of people and taunt Darby into a trap, I'm really confused as to how it got to genocidal from that.

It's quite clearly something designed to make people feel uncomfortable at this point and it's doing enough to see people who are interested in it continue to tune in to see the end goal of it. 

[Jaysin]

1 hour ago, ColdBloodedSausageMaker said:

CW: Nazis, Fascism, Hate Speech

After last night, Tony from a business perspective needs to send Moxley away for a while -- to somewhere like New Japan where most fans aren't watching Dynamite -- to get away from the heat.

From a moral perspective, Tony should release Moxley for deciding to play a neo-nazi on national television at all. 

Jon Moxley really took things to far quoting Mussolini for his new Neo-Nazi character on Dynamite. Because it was used in a comedy skit on The Office about a decade ago, fans will catch that Moxley quoted Benito Mussolini -- though in The Office, Dwight Shrute wasn't a Nazi, he was pranked by Jim into quoting a Nazi. 

(The Office joke was still in bad taste). 

Fans are right to be angry with AEW for letting Moxley do this angle. Even in WWE, a more morally neutral company, fans would consider Moxley's character way, way out of line. 

Moxley's evil, genocidal philosophy isn't being treated as evil and genocidal enough. Among other things, the announcers should be open calling Moxley out and condemning Moxley, but with the way the vignettes are shot, Moxley's ideas go frustratingly unchallenged. 
 

When MJF does something terrible, the announcers immediately and strongly condemn MJF. Why aren't they strongly condemning neo-nazi Moxley?

AEW sold fans on their inclusivity and their strong business ethics. Moxley doing a literal neo-nazi gimmick could really hurt AEW's brand. 

(Also, Moxley doing this is morally wrong and messed up)

You asking for someone to lose their job because they're playing a fictional character is pretty evil, morally wrong, and messed up. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Meanwhile I'm sitting here like...Mussolini wasn't a Nazi. He was a Fascist. Nazism is an equally vile but separate ideology. I make this point specifically because calling someone a Nazi is inflammatory in a way that calling them a Fascist isn't in our society. Mussolini was an awful human, but quoting him is not the same as quoting an actual Nazi. This means that Mox isn't playing a Neo-Nazi character. As others have said, it's a quote chosen to make people uncomfortable. Likely chosen specifically because it was one of history's villains wanted to abandon diplomacy and go to war.

 

To be clear, the above is an explanation, not a defense. Quoting Mussolini is not a good look. With that said, it is a very Heel Mox thing to do. Pushing limits an crossing lines. I'm willing to see where it goes, as the real John Moxley behind the gimmick I think has earned that level of trust. That's it.

[Astil]

Blood alone moves the wheels of history is a protestant era Martin Luther qoute that Mussolini co opted into a speach and it was used in the Office so everyone thinks its a Mussolini qoute and not Martin Luthers.

 

[John Lions]

6 minutes ago, Astil said:

Blood alone moves the wheels of history is a protestant era Martin Luther qoute that Mussolini co opted into a speach and it was used in the Office so everyone thinks its a Mussolini qoute and not Martin Luthers.

 

Did anyone bother to let Martin Luther know he was quoting a Nazi? No wonder the Catholic Church cancelled him.

[Astil]

16 minutes ago, John Lions said:

Did anyone bother to let Martin Luther know he was quoting a Nazi? No wonder the Catholic Church cancelled him.

I hear he was German too!

There is a facinating discussion about how the petty faciats of ww2 wanted so badly to be luther and "reform" the world and im not that surprised Mussolini would use it but I thinks its weird to do so in a aew thread.

It was a good promo. Bryan is soft. I am not. Im assuming direct control.

[Self]

You can have wrestling as a safe, cartoon place of escapism and fun... or you can have it dark, violent, and reflecting real world issues and real world evils. If any company is going to strike at sensitive, uncomfortable issues, it probably should be the one that is already doing blood and  and extreme violence. In for a penny, in for a pound. I don't think mentioning dead dads or CTE should be off limits for a company that uses fire and syringes.

My only concern with Moxley's new direction is that he seems to be one of those guys who thinks heels are rebellious bad asses, and not characters designed to be disliked. He always makes himself too cool. Too tough. Too aspirational. I don't think he's ever been an effective heel, and given the wrong ideology it could create something... bad. We'll see. He's cribbing some things, but he'll probably end up where he always does; a tough bad ass who defies authority and fights people. Nothing particularly interesting. 

[alpha2117]

I think we can all agree it wasn't a stellar night for good taste angle wise on Dynamite.  Heels use stuff and we get that it's just that certain stuff probably shouldn't be used.  People have used distasteful stuff before and they will use distasteful stuff again and they should get some X-Pac heat for that and people make it clear when the line has well and truly been crossed.  Not saying they should be cancelled but those angles aren't really okay and they need to be moved away from.  The sad thing is the people using those dubious angles dont need too, they are over enough without that crap.   

Edited Tuesday at 11:15 AM by alpha2117

[Big Roguey]

Is Christian mocking Bryan's history of head knocks any different from the various angles over the years of people claiming broken necks/arms/legs etc as trophies? It's a despicable heel striking low which has been Christian's MO ever since he became the dad of AEW (Arguably the worst part of Dynamite was the pretzel booking to get to Bryan/Nigel at Arthur Ashe instead of the promoted title match). Mox's quote is semi-dubious depending on how you view the quote but outside of it it's still in its infancy and relatively by the numbers work at this point until more happens on screen.

I think ultimately it comes down to where you draw the line on things being distasteful or not and there is no answer that makes everyone happy/content. As Self says, you can have wrestling as a safe, cartoon adjacent place of escapism or you can have it be darker in tone. There is plenty of content to watch throughout that entire spectrum so if what one promotion is doing is off-putting to someone, there will be something that can fill that void. I wonder if TV shows have this same moral debate about content, I should probably get into TV more.

[alpha2117]

4 minutes ago, Big Roguey said:

Is Christian mocking Bryan's history of head knocks any different from the various angles over the years of people claiming broken necks/arms/legs etc as trophies? It's a despicable heel striking low which has been Christian's MO ever since he became the dad of AEW (Arguably the worst part of Dynamite was the pretzel booking to get to Bryan/Nigel at Arthur Ashe instead of the promoted title match). Mox's quote is semi-dubious depending on how you view the quote but outside of it it's still in its infancy and relatively by the numbers work at this point until more happens on screen.

I think ultimately it comes down to where you draw the line on things being distasteful or not and there is no answer that makes everyone happy/content. As Self says, you can have wrestling as a safe, cartoon adjacent place of escapism or you can have it be darker in tone. There is plenty of content to watch throughout that entire spectrum so if what one promotion is doing is off-putting to someone, there will be something that can fill that void. I wonder if TV shows have this same moral debate about content, I should probably get into TV more.

What I would say is CTE is an ever looming threat over the industry and all contact sports.  It's not the same as a broken arm or leg - it's the sword of Damocles hovering over their heads.  I am certain there were a lot of people in the industry who went WTF when they went there.  The Moxley stuff was just a bit silly but the Christian one was downright stupid to drop.  The thing was there was other stuff all through the show too.  I have to think it was a deliberate decision to go more edgy and I think it was moronic.  There's Heat and Go Away Heat and there was a heck of a lot of Go Away Heat stuff happening and I have to think that was driven by management.

As for stuff on TV, people increasingly react to stuff and show their displeasure online.  Look at Game of Thrones - they had signposted a characters turn for multiple series but people liked her and chose to ignore the constant warning signs.  People lost their mind when she went Heel.  They were happy when she was using Dragons to burn "Bad" people to death but when she started burning people indiscriminately they said it was out of character.  So Yeah TV and Film constantly have to walk the same fine lines where what happens and who does things has to be considered pretty carefully.  Wrestling gets cut some slack because normally it's done with a nod and a wink and it is a bit hyper-reality even at it's realest.  I think the angles on Dynamite were ... there wasn't much in the way of nods and winks just sort of nastiness.  I can forgive them but if they go back there next week it's going to start to become an issue.  I dont tune in to wrestling for it to drag the real nasty stuff in ... I watch it to avoid the real nasty stuff.

 

[Astil]

2 hours ago, Self said:

You can have wrestling as a safe, cartoon place of escapism and fun... or you can have it dark, violent, and reflecting real world issues and real world evils. If any company is going to strike at sensitive, uncomfortable issues, it probably should be the one that is already doing blood and  and extreme violence. In for a penny, in for a pound. I don't think mentioning dead dads or CTE should be off limits for a company that uses fire and syringes.

My only concern with Moxley's new direction is that he seems to be one of those guys who thinks heels are rebellious bad asses, and not characters designed to be disliked. He always makes himself too cool. Too tough. Too aspirational. I don't think he's ever been an effective heel, and given the wrong ideology it could create something... bad. We'll see. He's cribbing some things, but he'll probably end up where he always does; a tough bad ass who defies authority and fights people. Nothing particularly interesting. 

I would say from what I have seen he is setting himself up to be disliked without abandoning his prior character. I don't think he thinks his kratocratic character is to be "liked". So far his group has only attacked with numbers and with an advantage which is also heelish and very unlike AEW Mox. 

Can it end up just falling back into the norm, yeah. But I kinda ttust them to do something halfway decent here.

[Astil]

2 hours ago, alpha2117 said:

I think we can all agree it wasn't a stellar night for good taste angle wise on Dynamite.  Heels use stuff and we get that it's just that certain stuff probably shouldn't be used.  People have used distasteful stuff before and they will use distasteful stuff again and they should get some X-Pac heat for that and people make it clear when the line has well and truly been crossed.  Not saying they should be cancelled but those angles aren't really okay and they need to be moved away from.  The sad thing is the people using those dubious angles dont need too, they are over enough without that crap.   

I really don't think the line got close to be crossed with heel wants to take over company in gritty bloody manner or by mentioning CTEs. It wasn't even Imma give you a CTE or anything. Just Im going to beat you so bad your wife will wish she couldnt remember it. Its not even THAT edgy! But for all the attention it seems to bring in he should change his stable name to Christian's Talented Enforcers. 

[Astil]

15 hours ago, ColdBloodedSausageMaker said:

Fans are right to be angry with AEW for letting Moxley do this angle. Even in WWE, a more morally neutral company, fans would consider Moxley's character way, way out of line. 

WWE just had Zach Wentz on a PLE. With build.

 

[alpha2117]

3 minutes ago, Astil said:

I really don't think the line got close to be crossed with heel wants to take over company in gritty bloody manner or by mentioning CTEs. It wasn't even Imma give you a CTE or anything. Just Im going to beat you so bad your wife will wish she couldnt remember it. Its not even THAT edgy! But for all the attention it seems to bring in he should change his stable name to Christian's Talented Enforcers. 

The thing is it's really bad ... you are talking about a guy who has a genuine health issue that could badly effect him and his family in the future but also a whole stack of other people.  It's distasteful, it would be like making 9/11 jokes - you just really shouldn't go there.  There's zero need to go there.  At first I thought it was just a bad ad lib but too many other things happened in the show for it to be a coincidence - like I've been saying it showed a lack of understanding between wrestling heat and go away heat.  It all ended up being cringey by the end, like 13 year olds trying to be edgy but ending up just being annoying.  What's worse is how good the actual wrestling is. There's terrific stuff in ring and steaming piles in so many of the angles.     

[alpha2117]

4 minutes ago, Astil said:

WWE just had Zach Wentz on a PLE. With build.

 

The thing with Wentz was one photo of him joking when he shaved - distasteful sure but it was never meant for the shows proper.  It was a stupid thing but we all have done stupid things.  Choosing to broadcast our stupidity to the world is different.  Like I said it's all largely forgivable but I certainly hope it doesn't continue because I enjoy the wrestling but I am going to hate to have to sit through that crapulence if it keeps happening.

[Astil]

Just now, alpha2117 said:

The thing is it's really bad ... you are talking about a guy who has a genuine health issue that could badly effect him and his family in the future but also a whole stack of other people.  It's distasteful, it would be like making 9/11 jokes - you just really shouldn't go there.  There's zero need to go there.  At first I thought it was just a bad ad lib but too many other things happened in the show for it to be a coincidence - like I've been saying it showed a lack of understanding between wrestling heat and go away heat.  It all ended up being cringey by the end, like 13 year olds trying to be edgy but ending up just being annoying.  What's worse is how good the actual wrestling is. There's terrific stuff in ring and steaming piles in so many of the angles.     

But it wasnt about Danielson. It was his wife.

Also CTE injuries are not on the scale of 9/11 in terms of joking and putting them together seems disrespectful so maybe be careful? I dunno. 

Imo, Christians whole schtick is a 13 year old trying to be edgy thats why Im not a fan of it lol. This seems tame compared to his "imma date ya mum" phase. 

I also wonder if its an age thing. I know in the younger skewing spaces I frequent throwing CTE around as a joke is actually common regarding sports or wrestling. Not that the people dont respect cte injuries, just that it makes for an easy punchline when a football player makes a bonehead play. Maybe that sort of blended into the writing in aew? 

[Astil]

2 minutes ago, alpha2117 said:

The thing with Wentz was one photo of him joking when he shaved - distasteful sure but it was never meant for the shows proper.  It was a stupid thing but we all have done stupid things.  Choosing to broadcast our stupidity to the world is different.  Like I said it's all largely forgivable but I certainly hope it doesn't continue because I enjoy the wrestling but I am going to hate to have to sit through that crapulence if it keeps happening.

Fair. Wont get too deep into ZW but it serves that WWE fans kinda dont care about that. Thats all. 

Also, and I promise my last history nerd commentary, calling Mussolini a Nazi is a real rectangle square situation. All Nazis are facists. Not all facists are Nazis. At least to me there is a huge difference between the two and your villian sharing ideals with Mussolini is not making him a Nazi. 

 

Also Mox DID say something close to a Hitler qoute but its so common its not attributed to Hitler. Curious if anyone has clocked it (its a shortening of a phrase for effect).

[alpha2117]

4 minutes ago, Astil said:

But it wasnt about Danielson. It was his wife.

Also CTE injuries are not on the scale of 9/11 in terms of joking and putting them together seems disrespectful so maybe be careful? I dunno. 

Imo, Christians whole schtick is a 13 year old trying to be edgy thats why Im not a fan of it lol. This seems tame compared to his "imma date ya mum" phase. 

I also wonder if its an age thing. I know in the younger skewing spaces I frequent throwing CTE around as a joke is actually common regarding sports or wrestling. Not that the people dont respect cte injuries, just that it makes for an easy punchline when a football player makes a bonehead play. Maybe that sort of blended into the writing in aew? 

Look I survived a terrorist attack where one of my workmates didn't ... I also care for someone with a level of dementia ... trust me it's the same level of "dont go there".  It's stuff that shouldn't be used in a wrestling show.  Cringe is cringe and last weeks Dynamite was frankly cringey not edgy ... they though they were being edgy and they simply weren't. If people joke around with their friends thats very different to broadcasting it to the world.  It was dumb, plain dumb.  If they return to normality next show then no biggie, if they decide this is their new direction angle wise it's going to bite them pretty quick because they dont seem to really understand where the line should be and if you dont understand you are eventually going to cross it one time too many.  People forget one or two bad angles pretty quick but Trips is still having to live down the whole Katie Vick stuff all these years later.  The really distasteful stuff sticks around like a bad smell.       

[alpha2117]

6 minutes ago, Astil said:

Fair. Wont get too deep into ZW but it serves that WWE fans kinda dont care about that. Thats all. 

Also, and I promise my last history nerd commentary, calling Mussolini a Nazi is a real rectangle square situation. All Nazis are facists. Not all facists are Nazis. At least to me there is a huge difference between the two and your villian sharing ideals with Mussolini is not making him a Nazi. 

 

Also Mox DID say something close to a Hitler qoute but its so common its not attributed to Hitler. Curious if anyone has clocked it (its a shortening of a phrase for effect).

Yeah I didn't mention the National Socialists, that was someone else ... honestly the whole Moxley angle stuff was just awful and I didn't know the quotes or references - I just thought it was lame.  It was only afterward I realised how lame when people brought up the references.  The thing is it wasn't just Chrisitan and Moxley there was a lot of other stuff scattered through the show either in angles, promos or commentary that made me cringe.  I dont watch wrestling to cringe, I watch to get away from cringe.  Sure some will make me cringe but thats the same with anything.  Like I've sai it's only a problem if this is a new permanent trend of trying to be edgy but not understanding the difference between edgy and cringe inducing. 

[Hollywood]

Hell of a chokeslam on that 911 kid