Jon The GOAT Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 In order to see if I was making really bad assumptions or not on whether touring was really really dumb, I decided to run a test (not very high end) simming 2 months to see the status of the Japanese companies. The default database had nothing changed. The second database had all "Tour" events deleted. Each Japanese company was thereafter given a constant schedule. Nothing beyond that was altered as far as Im aware. I'll put this caveat ahead of time - Constant does end up running more shows, typically 5 more events. I've decided not to resim it to take that into account for reasons that feel obvious to me: The financial discrepancy is usually way too much to argue that 5 events wouldve made a difference. Most of these companies end up doing more than 3/4X the amount of money they make running touring. They arent running 3/4X the amount of events. Furthermore, it shows that injuries & fatigue simply arent a factor in running constant schedules when the schedule is not only tougher but more frequent. I think the only place where it factors much would be pop but even then the growth is clear enough that you can tell resimming would still make the differences clear. I may resim anyways but I think this sums things up anyways. Finance Touring 5SSW: 90,963 BCG: 539,728 BHOTWG: 12,234,627 EX2010: 912,434 PGHW: 1,456,513 SAISHO: 1,489 WLW: 200,569 Constant 5SSW: 83,104 BCG: 1,938,139 BHOTWG: 39,968,986 EX2010: 996,584 PGHW: 12,979,309 SAISHO: -37,216 WLW: 1,157,500 Some thoughts. 5SSW chose to start broadcasting events on their 11th event. They began suffering because of this. Production went from 18K to 136K. I have a feeling that given more time, 5SSW would've gotten over this hump and began turning a profit. Hard to tell. EX2010 also began broadcasting around the start of February but they made 40K more in February than they did last month. I suspect theyll be making a lot of money soon too, given the chance. Lastly is SAISHO who began broadcasting at the end of Jan Week 3. Their status may be worrying but they only lost 3K more in February than they did in January. I am pretty confident they will grow out of their situation. Its worth noting that at this point, none of these smaller companies are making anything from broadcasting revenue, but their ticket sales are all going up by significant margins now that they're broadcasted. I assume that if you simmed a whole year, all 6 of these companies would be quite profitable with constant schedules. Injuries Touring Solar II - chronic pain 2 months and 2 weeks Goemon Komiya - torn rotator cuff 1 year SATO - hernia 56 days Ichiro Mitsukuri - torn achilles 1 year Commander Kawagishi - swollen calf muscle 28 days Torch Nakazawa - chronicpain 2 months 1 week Shimpei Hirose - torn quad 1 year Constant Blade Kimiyama - major concussion 1 year & 2 months Bakin Sakamoto - torn quad 1 year Tiger Prince - minor concussion 28 days Seiji Jimbo - back injury 2 months 3 weeks Sumiyuki Samura - chronic pain from botch Blast Ikoma - chronic pain 37 days Torch Nakazawa - torn achilles 1 year Shuzo Utagawa - swollen calf muscles 28 days Shiori Jippensha - 28 days One of the bigger counter arguments to touring vs. constant is the injury factor. We've had 9 injuries, 3 are pretty severe. Ultimately, its up to you. If I am PGHW or BHOTWG and I stand to make 10s of millions more, I will sacrifice one guy a month happily. The other issue brought up is fatigue. If you guys want me to do, I can make a comparison of how fatigued each people are per company. For one example, PGHW has 3 very low fatigue in Constant and none in Touring. Now comparing both, there are only 3 more injuries in constant so far and as we see from the fatigue aspect, no one is in any major danger of getting injured because of fatigue. Theres the same amount of major injuries as well. Worth remembering, Constant is running more shows than Touring at a higher intensity and yet there isnt really a stark difference. Pop Base 5SSW - 0 / 0 / 12 / 31 / 12 / 12 / 12 / 0 BCG - 11 / 11 / 21 / 53 / 21 / 21 / 21 / 11 BHOTWG - 71 / 71 / 71 / 71 / 71 / 71 / 71 EX2010 - 12 / 31 / 12 / 5 / 5 / 2 / 2 / 0 PGHW - 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 SAISHO - 26 / 10 / 10 / 4 / 4 / 1 / 1 / 10 WLW - 52 / 48 / 48 / 48 / 48 / 48 / 48 Touring 5SSW - 6 / 6 / 16 / 36 / 16 / 16 / 16 / 2 -> Rose to Small BCG - 14 / 14 / 24 / 54 / 24 / 24 / 24 / 14 BHOTWG - 73 / 73 / 73 / 73 / 73 / 73 / 73 / 73 EX2010 - 18 / 35 / 18 / 7 / 7 / 3 / 3 / 7 -> Rose to Small PGHW - 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 / 65 SAISHO - 29 / 14 / 14 / 6 / 6 / 2 / 2 / 14 WLW - 53 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 49 Constant 5SSW - 7 / 7 / 17 / 39 / 15 / 15 / 15 / 4 -> Rose to Small BCG - 15 / 15 / 29/ 62 / 25 / 25 / 25 / 15 BHOTWG - 80 / 81 / 80 / 81 / 80 / 79 / 80 / 80 -> Rose to Big EX2010 - 17 / 43 / 17 / 8 / 8 / 5 / 5 / 8 -> Rose to Small PGHW - 72 / 72 / 72 / 73 / 72 / 71 / 72 / 71 SAISHO - 38 / 15 / 15 / 9 / 9 / 6 / 6 / 15 -> Rose to Small WLW - 58 / 57 / 55 / 55 / 55 / 54 / 55 / 55 Well, you can see the differences. In Constant, the smaller companies did a good job growing their home base. For BHOTWG/PGHW they actually grew way more. PGHW is basically where BHOTWG starts at the game and probably could hit Big within 2 months as well. BHOTWG grows. SAISHO grows where it didnt before. Already a decent sign they may not face the certain death they face in Touring. WLW is literally 1 or 2 events from growing to Medium. As opposed to the game where it might take another 8 months. Like I said earlier, this is the part where I can see the most dismissal because Constant ran more events. But again, I dont really see the event increase taking away from the difference in pop. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ultimately, I dont really expect anything to change. I mostly just ran this test for myself to see if I was kicking up too much of a fuss about how poor Touring was as an option compared to the similar Constant schedule. To me it's night & day. If I pick up a Japanese company, I'll be playing with a schedule more akin to a Constant one. Now, if I were to be asked if I wanted anything out of this it would be to make touring worthwhile. I dont want to feel like an idiot for playing a touring schedule especially when its not like its a great reflection of how real world touring works anyways so I dont feel bound to stick with it for authenticity or realism reasons anyways. Nit pick as you see fit of course. Again, I dont expect anything to change out of this and it wasnt the most optimized test on my end. To me, these are issues that have been prominent in the TEW series for a while so Im used to it. I kinda just hoped things might have changed in '20 but it is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 Quick update - This is patch #13 - I wont be running another test sim but others can feel free too. I realized that reducing the events to be the same would take too much effort since the events are generated when you start the game. I cant delete the events with the in game editor so Id probably have to go into each company to delete it. If theres a non-tedious/quick way to do it in the database editor (adding the events & having them spaced out well enough) I'll test it again but Im not gonna spend a ton of time on something that probably wont get addressed anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBosco Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Wow I didn’t know the financial gains would be THAT different. I planned on playing PGHW, so I’m definitely going to have to move on from touring unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FINisher Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Thanks for doing the hard work testing this, getting the financial part and popularity gain for promotions should be #1 priority right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 Wow I didn’t know the financial gains would be THAT different. I planned on playing PGHW, so I’m definitely going to have to move on from touring unfortunately You'll still be fine running a touring schedule with PGHW because PPV is lucrative but you stand to make way more money just not running it lol. If you want a happy medium, just activate King's Road on like Aichi or something and the PPV on Emperor and you'll make decent money without having to heavily alter the schedule. Then when you get to the bigger touring events (like your tournament), turn them into normal events. Thanks for doing the hard work testing this, getting the financial part and popularity gain for promotions should be #1 priority right now. Thanks! ---- I really hope modders take into account how... uh... ineffective touring is. I know people will probably just give Japanese companies the default touring schedule and call it a day, most likely, but I think that Japanese companies unfortunately require the most care when you're setting up the schedule. I dont believe a "Constant" schedule is necessary but I think modders need to directly alter certain events to be "Normal" where it makes sense. I'd look to RW companies and see how many of their events they broadcast on their streaming service vs. leave offline and maybe try to find that sort of balance in their schedules. For G1 style tournament Id go full normal but for like Fantasticamania or Tag League you can make one or two shows normal and the user knows to have maybe bigger matches on those cards. Basically, it shouldnt be a brushstroke of full constant or full tour. The answer is a happy medium and modders should take that into account and not take the easy way out. I wish you could but sadly the auto scheduling just isn't effective enough at making a balanced schedule. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I have a suggestion for an improvement and Ill probably be posting it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomenessofme1 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Does this include patch 13's reduced costs of touring shows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Historian Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 <p>I think you're overlooking some of the other things of touring.</p><p> </p><p> While they don't gain you as much popularity or as much money, you're also not at risk to lose popularity if the show isn't very good. The fans are more accepting of developing talents -- so you can feature your young lions and unknown wrestlers a little bit more. You also don't have the negative morale complaints of wrestlers who might get left off a tour show -- so if you don't want to feature Funakoshi on several tour shows straight, he won't get upset -- but if he misses a three or four events in a row, he's not going to be happy.</p><p> </p><p> You also highlighted the injuries -- which on the surface doesn't seem like a major deal, but factor in that you if you are using your top talent more, you're risking them more. So let's say you're BCG. Over three months of running a constant schedule, you lose Funakoshi, Torri, Okamoto in a short span to major injuries from the physical wear and tear that adds up -- you'll be up the creek because this game factors in the stars on a show more readily and if you don't have the star power on a show, you will see dwindling returns.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tryker2710 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Historian" data-cite="Historian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you're overlooking some of the other things of touring.<p> </p><p> While they don't gain you as much popularity or as much money, you're also not at risk to lose popularity if the show isn't very good. The fans are more accepting of developing talents -- so you can feature your young lions and unknown wrestlers a little bit more. You also don't have the negative morale complaints of wrestlers who might get left off a tour show -- so if you don't want to feature Funakoshi on several tour shows straight, he won't get upset -- but if he misses a three or four events in a row, he's not going to be happy.</p><p> </p><p> You also highlighted the injuries -- which on the surface doesn't seem like a major deal, but factor in that you if you are using your top talent more, you're risking them more. So let's say you're BCG. Over three months of running a constant schedule, you lose Funakoshi, Torri, Okamoto in a short span to major injuries from the physical wear and tear that adds up -- you'll be up the creek because this game factors in the stars on a show more readily and if you don't have the star power on a show, you will see dwindling returns.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The problem with this though is you are working under the assumption that people are booking bad shows. If the constant schedule is resulting in better finances AND pop growth then there isn't a reason to use the touring schedule unless you want total realism. The core of your argument here I feel relies on the player being bad at the game, which is paper thin reasoning I feel.</p><p> </p><p> This does however lead to one pretty glaring issue with the data and that is the fact this was a watcher game. The AI inherently has an advantage as it does not have to deal with penalties like negative chemistry and repetitive booking. Which means if there is only 1 combination of workers on a roster that could provide a 100 match then the AI can spam it no matter what and we can't (This can be turned off but I am working under the premise that the hypothetical player is using default settings.)</p><p> </p><p> Another issue with your argument as well Historian is that very few of the product set ups will consider the matches with your unknowns as main events receive so much weight, and I also don't believe the game is nuanced enough to provide more learning in a 10-minute match vs a 6-minute match, and rather that skill increase is based on the quality of opponent moreso. On top of that your young lions and unknowns will receive far small popularity boosts for being on tour shows, so while you can use them more often the actual effectiveness of that is much lower as a win on a tour show is worth much less than a win at a normal event.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Historian Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="tryker2710" data-cite="tryker2710" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The problem with this though is you are working under the assumption that people are booking bad shows. If the constant schedule is resulting in better finances AND pop growth then there isn't a reason to use the touring schedule unless you want total realism. The core of your argument here I feel relies on the player being bad at the game, which is paper thin reasoning I feel.<p> </p><p> This does however lead to one pretty glaring issue with the data and that is the fact this was a watcher game. The AI inherently has an advantage as it does not have to deal with penalties like negative chemistry and repetitive booking. Which means if there is only 1 combination of workers on a roster that could provide a 100 match then the AI can spam it no matter what and we can't (This can be turned off but I am working under the premise that the hypothetical player is using default settings.)</p><p> </p><p> Another issue with your argument as well Historian is that very few of the product set ups will consider the matches with your unknowns as main events receive so much weight, and I also don't believe the game is nuanced enough to provide more learning in a 10-minute match vs a 6-minute match, and rather that skill increase is based on the quality of opponent moreso. On top of that your young lions and unknowns will receive far small popularity boosts for being on tour shows, so while you can use them more often the actual effectiveness of that is much lower as a win on a tour show is worth much less than a win at a normal event.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My argument has nothing to do with people being bad at the game, though.</p><p> </p><p> Touring shows allow you to not book your top stars without a penalty to their morale. Your top stars want to be on events. That part has nothing to do with booking bad shows -- it has every bit to do with game mechanics. Touring shows are more forgiving than event shows. You don't have the penalties for bad shows that you do for normal importance shows. They're designed for you to get talent over and let them develop. </p><p> </p><p> While young wrestlers develop based off the amount of matches and you can still put them on your normal events, you're getting do so so with out the same level of quality expected for the shows. This works out in the player's favor. You can use them in longer matches (which helps develop stamina) as well as have more spots for them on the card because you don't need to book as many stars and major stars on the roster.</p><p> </p><p> There are reasons to use the touring schedule and I'm not even disputing whether or not a constant schedule is better than a touring schedule -- because that depends on how you want to play the game and that's fine with me, I don't have any qualms -- but it does have to be stated that there are advantages to booking touring shows as opposed to just a series of normal events from both a physical wear and tear (as guys will not be going all out on touring shows -- at least most of them -- so they will be saving their body) as well as not needing as much name talent, you have more cushion as a booker and more opportunity to develop your underneath talent.</p><p> </p><p> Again, has nothing to do with being a bad booker or being bad at the game -- in fact. It gives you an opportunity to develop talent in a more forgiving environment.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="awesomenessofme1" data-cite="awesomenessofme1" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Does this include patch 13's reduced costs of touring shows?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Historian" data-cite="Historian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you're overlooking some of the other things of touring.<p> </p><p> While they don't gain you as much popularity or as much money, you're also not at risk to lose popularity if the show isn't very good. The fans are more accepting of developing talents -- so you can feature your young lions and unknown wrestlers a little bit more. You also don't have the negative morale complaints of wrestlers who might get left off a tour show -- so if you don't want to feature Funakoshi on several tour shows straight, he won't get upset -- but if he misses a three or four events in a row, he's not going to be happy.</p><p> </p><p> You also highlighted the injuries -- which on the surface doesn't seem like a major deal, but factor in that you if you are using your top talent more, you're risking them more. So let's say you're BCG. Over three months of running a constant schedule, you lose Funakoshi, Torri, Okamoto in a short span to major injuries from the physical wear and tear that adds up -- you'll be up the creek because this game factors in the stars on a show more readily and if you don't have the star power on a show, you will see dwindling returns.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> To be blunt, I think your remarks are non factors, at least to me personally.</p><p> </p><p> A lot of the counter-criticisms when I bring up how Constant >>>>>>>> Touring dont seem to factor in that they have to match up their counter points to my criticisms. These counter points seem to come in a bubble without factoring in that they simply do not compare to the upside (WAY more money, popularity growth). </p><p> </p><p> "Not at risk to lose popularity" these companies are making 3 to 4X the amount of money. Growing much faster. Being afraid of losing popularity simply isnt big enough a factor. And honestly, how many of the people who play TEW are still struggling to gain pop once they get into a rhythm and flow of the game? You usually have mastered your roster, know how your show needs to go. Youre consistently getting decent grades and only being hindered by economy/industry most of the time you get settled into a game. Most people dont really need to worry about losing pop as they get into a game, and clearly the AI isnt really concerned about that either since they all gained pop. All. I understand your argument but to me its like "is this really that big a concern". No one is booking any other company with touring intent shows because theyre afraid of losing pop. </p><p> </p><p> Furthermore, you mentioned young lions & unknown wrestlers. You know well enough that booking some young lions & unknown wrestlers in 2-3 opening matches wont tank the show grade at all, especially depending on what kind of focus you have. I can say with absolutely certainty, you shouldnt concern yourself with how your YL or no names will feat because they arent the ones meant to carry your show in the first place.</p><p> </p><p> Negative moral complaints for getting left off tour show. If this offsets 3/4X money or in the case of PGHW, nearly 10X the money, then I think our priorities are a bit skewed. But honestly, if you want Funakoshi to miss three or four events in a row then there's a "Send Away" mechanic I'm pretty sure, so just give him a vacation. </p><p> </p><p> The injury I wont spend long on because the test actually showed that there isnt a difference in injuries. I'd love to sim a whole year to see if it actually starts taking a toll but none of the guys in the company were unduly fatigued after 2 months of running constant schedules so this is just a made up problem. As far as our two month sample size is concerned, injury is not an issue at all. If your roster is getting fatigued that's always my easy excuse to give a guy an event off and with the amount of money you're making, you'll be able to sign a bigger roster to have more multi-man matches (which eases fatigue issues) and to also give more guys time off when they need it. Even if this was a problem, it would be solvable without much thought. </p><p> </p><p> Hopefully this post did not come across abrasive. But like I said, a lot of people bring up arguments in support of touring that simply do not match-up to the upside of constant. I cannot see an argument founded on "not risking losing pop" which to me was the only argument that I saw as valid since every other one isnt really effected by constant, against "Hey as BHOTWG I made Big and made 27M more than I would otherwise" or "Hey as PGHW Im as big as BHOTWG was and I made 10X more money" or "Hey as WLW, Im now as rich as I was before they nerfed me with the Yakuza".</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atticus Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jon The GOAT" data-cite="Jon The GOAT" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Negative moral complaints for getting left off tour show. If this offsets 3/4X money or in the case of PGHW, nearly 10X the money, then I think our priorities are a bit skewed. But honestly, if you want Funakoshi to miss three or four events in a row then there's a "Send Away" mechanic I'm pretty sure, so just give him a vacation. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Adding onto this, given how much extra money you'll be making on a Constant schedule, you can just pay a worker like Funakoshi some Bonus money and that'll bring his morale back up. Sure, you'll still get dinged with the left off show complaints, but when you're BHOTWG and making 10mil a month, dropping a couple of thousands to increase a wrestler's morale is nothing. Won't be the case with the smaller companies like SAISHO, but some of the handshake contracts are so dirt cheap, you won't be gutted when you send a guy away on paid leave for a week if I'm correct in my thinking.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makhai Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jon The GOAT" data-cite="Jon The GOAT" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yes.<p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> To be blunt, I think your remarks are non factors, at least to me personally.</p><p> </p><p> A lot of the counter-criticisms when I bring up how Constant >>>>>>>> Touring dont seem to factor in that they have to match up their counter points to my criticisms. These counter points seem to come in a bubble without factoring in that they simply do not compare to the upside (WAY more money, popularity growth). </p><p> </p><p> "Not at risk to lose popularity" these companies are making 3 to 4X the amount of money. Growing much faster. Being afraid of losing popularity simply isnt big enough a factor. <strong>And honestly, how many of the people who play TEW are still struggling to gain pop once they get into a rhythm and flow of the game? You usually have mastered your roster, know how your show needs to go. Youre consistently getting decent grades and only being hindered by economy/industry most of the time you get settled into a game.</strong> Most people dont really need to worry about losing pop as they get into a game, and clearly the AI isnt really concerned about that either since they all gained pop. All. I understand your argument but to me its like "is this really that big a concern". No one is booking any other company with touring intent shows because theyre afraid of losing pop. </p><p> </p><p> Furthermore, you mentioned young lions & unknown wrestlers. You know well enough that booking some young lions & unknown wrestlers in 2-3 opening matches wont tank the show grade at all, especially depending on what kind of focus you have. I can say with absolutely certainty, you shouldnt concern yourself with how your YL or no names will feat because they arent the ones meant to carry your show in the first place.</p><p> </p><p> Negative moral complaints for getting left off tour show. If this offsets 3/4X money or in the case of PGHW, nearly 10X the money, then I think our priorities are a bit skewed. But honestly, if you want Funakoshi to miss three or four events in a row then there's a "Send Away" mechanic I'm pretty sure, so just give him a vacation. </p><p> </p><p> The injury I wont spend long on because the test actually showed that there isnt a difference in injuries. I'd love to sim a whole year to see if it actually starts taking a toll but none of the guys in the company were unduly fatigued after 2 months of running constant schedules so this is just a made up problem. As far as our two month sample size is concerned, injury is not an issue at all. If your roster is getting fatigued that's always my easy excuse to give a guy an event off and with the amount of money you're making, you'll be able to sign a bigger roster to have more multi-man matches (which eases fatigue issues) and to also give more guys time off when they need it. Even if this was a problem, it would be solvable without much thought. </p><p> </p><p> Hopefully this post did not come across abrasive. But like I said, a lot of people bring up arguments in support of touring that simply do not match-up to the upside of constant. I cannot see an argument founded on "not risking losing pop" which to me was the only argument that I saw as valid since every other one isnt really effected by constant, against "Hey as BHOTWG I made Big and made 27M more than I would otherwise" or "Hey as PGHW Im as big as BHOTWG was and I made 10X more money" or "Hey as WLW, Im now as rich as I was before they nerfed me with the Yakuza".</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I just want to say that this really needs to change. Events, Narratives, and Scandals really need to be expanded to freshen up games and close/hold back companies. Excellent work with the simming.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazza Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 I have noticed something like this in my test runs (of only about a week). You can open your own broadcaster with Big in all areas of the game. Then you can either negotiate a "Tour highlight" deal or modify each Tour event as Normal rather than Tour and have your own broadcaster air the show. Your finances will greatly increase as well, although I can't give a figure for how much each month atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tryker2710 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 I just want to say that this really needs to change. Events, Narratives, and Scandals really need to be expanded to freshen up games and close/hold back companies. Excellent work with the simming. Tbf though how often in real life has a massive event or scandal caused a 'name' company to shut down? The way 2016 went most saves of mine that went a few years ended with PGHW and 5SSW being bought out so I think it'll be interesting to have a game where they end up more financially viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomnipotent Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 I love it PGHW loses its four pillars to physical deterioration and doesn't have enough midcard talent. People point out that Constant causes more injuries but makes more money, and that Touring allows further development of young talent. People choose Constant for PGHW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PW_Fandom Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 *snip* You also highlighted the injuries -- which on the surface doesn't seem like a major deal, but factor in that you if you are using your top talent more, you're risking them more. So let's say you're BCG. Over three months of running a constant schedule, you lose Funakoshi, Torri, Okamoto in a short span to major injuries from the physical wear and tear that adds up -- you'll be up the creek because this game factors in the stars on a show more readily and if you don't have the star power on a show, you will see dwindling returns. Just to add to this point in my game I had Mabuchi Furusawa out for over a year with a major concussion within the first month even with a regular touring schedule so it's not like serious injury cannot happen also. I can take one, maybe two of these and it's game over for a promotion like BCG, if I was to take increased risk from running a normal schedule I would have to reduce the amount of events significantly. Edit: To be clear because I didn't say it, I'm happy you simmed the situation and I hope it leads to an improvement of the touring options but unless I play the game on low injuries I cannot see running this amount of events on normal as realistic for the smaller Japanese promotions that are dependent on their top talents not getting hurt while simultaneously also putting them in the line of fire constantly, the idea of increasing the risk seems nuts to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tryker2710 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 I love it PGHW loses its four pillars to physical deterioration and doesn't have enough midcard talent. People point out that Constant causes more injuries but makes more money, and that Touring allows further development of young talent. People choose Constant for PGHW. Actually neither of those things you've said are true. We need to be working off the data we have and not in hypothetical "well this COULD happen". The data we have suggests that injuries are no more or less likely to occur on constant as opposed to touring, and also that injuries are no more severe on constant. It also isnt true that touring is better for young talent. The point was that touring shows mean you could have more spots for your young workers, but I find that to be misleading. On constant there are actually MORE shows being held according to the data which means even if your young guys on average are getting 1 less match per show, the fact there were more shows held will in the long run outweigh that. Plus the fact that the constant normal events will cause bigger and faster increases in pop for your young guys as opposed to tour shows which correspond to little or no pop growth. So I really don't see how touring could be better for growing young talent outside of the already debunked "well you could put more of them on a tour show" argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 Adding onto this, given how much extra money you'll be making on a Constant schedule, you can just pay a worker like Funakoshi some Bonus money and that'll bring his morale back up. Sure, you'll still get dinged with the left off show complaints, but when you're BHOTWG and making 10mil a month, dropping a couple of thousands to increase a wrestler's morale is nothing. Won't be the case with the smaller companies like SAISHO, but some of the handshake contracts are so dirt cheap, you won't be gutted when you send a guy away on paid leave for a week if I'm correct in my thinking. Yes. Agree. There are plenty of solutions to giving a worker a day off and I've never had it be an issue on '16 if I used the myriad of options available: give him the show off because he's fatigued, give him a bonus if he's mad, give him time off if you want him gone for a bit, perhaps just have him appear in a short stable segment if you're short other options. This is only a "problem" with SAISHO just as you mentioned. I wouldnt include EX2010 or 5SSW because they dont really go into the red and will end up having the money to afford these things anyways. SAISHO will have a bit more trouble early on but thats the challenge of them and I still feel they have a fighting chance this way vs. regular touring. I just want to say that this really needs to change. Events, Narratives, and Scandals really need to be expanded to freshen up games and close/hold back companies. Excellent work with the simming. I agree. I'd like more things to shake my game up as well. I have noticed something like this in my test runs (of only about a week). You can open your own broadcaster with Big in all areas of the game. Then you can either negotiate a "Tour highlight" deal or modify each Tour event as Normal rather than Tour and have your own broadcaster air the show. Your finances will greatly increase as well, although I can't give a figure for how much each month atm. Yup this was mostly how I sort of realized this would be a problem again this year. I played a week of PGHW and played with a Normal event & the TV show & the touring. The touring had cost me money but the normal event & TV show made so much money that the early financial issues of PGHW were gone over night. I love being able to open our own broadcasters easier but as its been pointed out in other threads, right now broadcasters seem a bit too generous. Tbf though how often in real life has a massive event or scandal caused a 'name' company to shut down? The way 2016 went most saves of mine that went a few years ended with PGHW and 5SSW being bought out so I think it'll be interesting to have a game where they end up more financially viable. Surprisingly PGHW were solid in most of the games I wasnt playing them for some reason. I do think RL incidents do hinder companies sometimes. There's a lot more ebb & flow in the real world. It's not just constant growth the way it is in a game. But I understand why it's like that, people wouldnt want to deal with like 3-5 years where your company isnt doing fantastic or its stagnating and stuff like that. But I think more events & incidents that "slow" you down just a bit would be cool. I love it PGHW loses its four pillars to physical deterioration and doesn't have enough midcard talent. People point out that Constant causes more injuries but makes more money, and that Touring allows further development of young talent. People choose Constant for PGHW. This is a frustrating post because it's clear you're posting here to be a smart ass and had no intention of reading the thread. I debunked this argument from my very first post and again when talking to Historian. Constant does not cause more injuries. Constant ran more events in my sim, considering you've 6 companies running more event and yet, the amount of injuries remained nearly the same BUT not only that, the major injuries were the exact same. Yes, I'll certainly pick the schedule that gives me 10X more money and still keeps my roster just as healthy. And again, this "touring allows further development" is absurd. How? What's stopping you from letting your young talent work on regular shows. Does it stop NJPW or AJPW or NOAH? If anyone is bringing up the argument that your young talent will not develop in a constant schedule, I'm very confused as to how you book your young talent. I book them more than I book my top talent. I use them regularly in the first 2-3 matches of my show. I use multi-man matches very regularly so there's always room for those young wrestlers. I have ZERO worry about their development. If you're too afraid of your guys tanking your constant shows, then thats fine, go back to touring. This isn't a problem for me and the game isnt so hard that this is in any way an issue. Just to add to this point in my game I had Mabuchi Furusawa out for over a year with a major concussion within the first month even with a regular touring schedule so it's not like serious injury cannot happen also. I can take one, maybe two of these and it's game over for a promotion like BCG, if I was to take increased risk from running a normal schedule I would have to reduce the amount of events significantly. Edit: To be clear because I didn't say it, I'm happy you simmed the situation and I hope it leads to an improvement of the touring options but unless I play the game on low injuries I cannot see running this amount of events on normal as realistic for the smaller Japanese promotions that are dependent on their top talents not getting hurt while simultaneously also putting them in the line of fire constantly, the idea of increasing the risk seems nuts to me. Again, I'm not sure where you read that this would cause an increase an injury. I still play on medium. The rate of major injuries is the same whether you use a Constant or Touring schedule. So why use the touring one where you can still easily lose Funakoshi for a year and be broke and have no one to take his place, when you can play on Constant, have 4X the amount of money in your bank account, and easily be able to deal with Funakoshi out for a year now? Not only that, but because you're on Constant, you're also going to have a much better time building up your next guy to take Funakoshi's place as opposed to dealing with the low pop gains of touring where it might be harder to position someone new to become the temporary ace of the company. I love BCG, they're my favorite company in the entire game. Pure touring isnt the way to go with them imo. Actually neither of those things you've said are true. We need to be working off the data we have and not in hypothetical "well this COULD happen". The data we have suggests that injuries are no more or less likely to occur on constant as opposed to touring, and also that injuries are no more severe on constant. It also isnt true that touring is better for young talent. The point was that touring shows mean you could have more spots for your young workers, but I find that to be misleading. On constant there are actually MORE shows being held according to the data which means even if your young guys on average are getting 1 less match per show, the fact there were more shows held will in the long run outweigh that. Plus the fact that the constant normal events will cause bigger and faster increases in pop for your young guys as opposed to tour shows which correspond to little or no pop growth. So I really don't see how touring could be better for growing young talent outside of the already debunked "well you could put more of them on a tour show" argument Mostly this. But even without the increase of event, constant wouldn't really effect how you're booking young workers unless you're very afraid of 2-3 opening matches tanking your entire show. Personally, I probably wouldnt book my touring shows much more different than I would with a constant schedule. -------------------------------------------- A few things to address: I'm not advocating that a Constant schedule is the ideal. It's not. I'm simply stating that Touring & Constant are very similar schedule types but Touring is such a poor return compared to Constant that it feels like you're deliberately hurting yourself for no reason. If touring actually worked how it does in real life, I'd be more inclined to not be so critical of it, but because it's a poor representation of how it works, and because modders might take the easy way out and just toss on "Touring" for all its Japanese promotions, this was an issue I wanted to raise up to avoid having to spend hrs altering the schedules of every Japanese companies I want to play because they're incredibly disadvantageous. I've already made a suggestion in the suggestion section as to how this issue could be improved and I think there's a happy medium between Touring & Constant that these companies should be working off of. The other thing is, a lot of the arguments PRO touring seems to stem from the angle of "well, I have to worry less about my show grade and can take it easier". This is totally fair but I dont think it's a valid argument. If I find myself needing to play a constant schedule, I still fully intend on booking shows like they're regular touring events. My cards will be full of multi-man matches TOP to BOTTOM. My main eventers will still get days off and I will keep an eye on their health. My young guys will get consistent opportunities on the card. They will absolutely be taken care of. I dont consider myself a great booker in TEW, but I think people are deeply OVERESTIMATING how much you need to powerbook in this game. To me it feels like a lot of people are stating that if they have to run "regular" shows, now they have to really stack up that main event, they have to stack it up every show, their young guys cant wrestle because theyll hurt their card, their main eventers will get tired because they keep working these BIG matches every night to get that grade. I dont feel the need to powerbook these shows. I will book them regularly with the story in mind, health of wrestlers, and the realistic booking style of major companies. The fear of a "bad show grade" wont make me powergame (nor do I think I'll get many bad show grades once I break in my roster anyways). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingRider Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 My small chime in here is simply to ask if you think 2 months of simming can truly evaluate the threat of injuries over the long haul? I'd be interested to see the same data extrapolated out over 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 My small chime in here is simply to ask if you think 2 months of simming can truly evaluate the threat of injuries over the long haul? I'd be interested to see the same data extrapolated out over 2 years. I do not think so but I can only do with what Im given. The publishers/creators of this game decided that 2 months was enough for its fan base to test the game out and find the necessary issues requisite for making this game ready for a full release so I have to trust their judgment. I dont agree with that personally and I think we should get at bare minimum 1 year to test it (and ideally, it should just be an FM-style system where people are able to buy into the beta two weeks ahead of release and play the "full game" to properly offer feedback). With all that said, am I personally worried about injuries? No. Even if injuries were more frequent (which I dont think they will be), I'm confident in my ability to manage it, and even if I werent, Im the sort of person who likes having their games shaken up so it wouldnt bother me anyways. This doesnt account for the A.I. but I have nothing to really say about that till we see whether or not its actually an issue. At the moment, it simply isn't in the test sample we're allowed to play with. But ultimately, it's like I said in my last post, Im not advocating for a strictly constant schedule, I'm advocating for the touring schedule to be improved and to reflect real world touring schedules a bit more. Happy medium is the answer. But if it's between current Touring & Constant, there's only one answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalton Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 Thank you for posting this. It seems the positives of Constant are too much to not take advantage of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerf Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 I think the disparity here exists because people choose to play for game mechanics rather than simulation. For many players (arguably too many), the main goal is frankly absurd levels of financial and pop growth as quickly as possible, realism be damned. New Japan aren't booking Korakuen Hall because it's an insane money maker, and they're not throwing main event singles matches on those cards either. If the constant schedule is bringing you more money and pop quickly, then fine, play however you want to. But realistically speaking, touring isn't supposed to achieve that, and at that point your priority isn't to reflect Japanese wrestling anyway, so what does it matter what downsides the touring schedule has? Then again, TEW has never been able to accurately replicate the puro scene, going right back to EWR, so it's whatevs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Nerf" data-cite="Nerf" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Then again, TEW has never been able to accurately replicate the puro scene, going right back to EWR, so it's whatevs.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The point of giving feedback on a beta though is to see if there are ways that it CAN more accurately replicate the puro scene, though, surely?</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerf Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaded" data-cite="Jaded" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The point of giving feedback on a beta though is to see if there are ways that it CAN more accurately replicate the puro scene, though, surely?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I mean, sure, but the comparison being discussed here isn't about realistic representation, it's about how to make the most money and gain popularity fastest, which just isn't how touring is supposed to work in reality.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon The GOAT Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Nerf" data-cite="Nerf" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think the disparity here exists because people choose to play for game mechanics rather than simulation.<p> </p><p> For many players (arguably too many), the main goal is frankly absurd levels of financial and pop growth as quickly as possible, realism be damned. New Japan aren't booking Korakuen Hall because it's an insane money maker, and they're not throwing main event singles matches on those cards either.</p><p> </p><p> If the constant schedule is bringing you more money and pop quickly, then fine, play however you want to. But realistically speaking, touring isn't supposed to achieve that, and at that point your priority isn't to reflect Japanese wrestling anyway, so what does it matter what downsides the touring schedule has?</p><p> </p><p> Then again, TEW has never been able to accurately replicate the puro scene, going right back to EWR, so it's whatevs.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not sure what you mean by this post because I've already dismissed the idea that I'm doing this simply for financial and pop growth reasons. I've stated almost three times that my goal is to improve touring and that a happy medium makes a lot more sense in adequately representing real world touring.</p><p> </p><p> My issue is that touring has been flawed for several games and doesnt actually reflect a real world schedule so it makes little sense to force Japanese companies to stick this debilitating schedule type. </p><p> </p><p> RE: NJPW & Korakuen Hall. I think youre simply reinforcing my argument because I've already stated I fully intend on booking normal intent shows much as I would a touring show because its not the self-mutilation people think it will be. </p><p> </p><p> Again, if people are going to come into this thread to argue against it then they should read the thread extensively and see the arguments I've already countered because people keep bringing up stuff I've already mentioned. I did not say my intent was to bring more money & pop quickly. Im arguing that Constant schedule & Touring schedule represent the real world "Touring" schedules of top puro promotions to the same extent but Touring is forced on Japanese companies when its immensely disadvantageous without compensating by being in any way realistic.</p><p> </p><p><strong> Hopefully Im clearer here: It makes no sense to pick a touring schedule when its NOT realistic to how RW top puro companies work and its vastly inferior to a constant schedule which is JUST as close to a RW top puro company's schedule as a touring schedule is.</strong></p><p><strong> </strong></p><p><strong> What I am arguing for is a better touring schedule that is more of a medium between both scheduling types and would more adequately reflect the real world touring schedules. Would it be 100% a reflection, no, but it would be a drastic improvement over how its work for many games now. </strong></p><p> </p><p> So with all that said, Im not sure at which point I stated that my priority isnt to reflect Japanese wrestling anyways. Your post seems intent on dismissing my arguments as those of someone who is simply concerned with power gaming. If this was my intent I wouldnt have bothered doing this, I would've just went constant and stuck to it. I posted this thread because I want touring to be improved because the reason its in the game is clearly to try and reflect the schedules of NJPW/AJPW/NOAH/BJW etc.. </p><p> </p><p> Considering you asked "what does it matter what downsides the touring schedule has?" I think you should've put more thought into this question because you probably wouldnt have bothered making your post. You wouldve read the thread more extensively because you wouldve wanted to see the reason why I posted this thread which was to point out that touring needs a lot of work. </p><p> </p><p> Ultimately though, it's like you said, "it's whatevs" so I dont really expect to see you posting here again since you had no real intentions of contributing to help with the issue.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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