Japan Cverse - Constant vs. Touring

[Blackman]

Thanks for testing this, guys. Hopefully touring gets boosted a bit because I really would be looking to book actual tours if I end up playing Japan.

 

@Jaded: Which promotion did you test this with? BHOTWG or PGHW? Could you please test the body wear when using "Royal Puroresu"? The hardest non-hardcore style of wear (also in Pseudo-sport) is currently not featured in the C-verse apart from the ALF promotion. If I'm planning on using that then full-time touring might be actually the best long-term plan.

[Jaded]

Thanks for testing this, guys. Hopefully touring gets boosted a bit because I really would be looking to book actual tours if I end up playing Japan.

 

@Jaded: Which promotion did you test this with? BHOTWG or PGHW? Could you please test the body wear when using "Royal Puroresu"? The hardest non-hardcore style of wear (also in Pseudo-sport) is currently not featured in the C-verse apart from the ALF promotion. If I'm planning on using that then full-time touring might be actually the best long-term plan.

 

It was with all Japanese promotions.

 

I'll see if I can set something up using Royal Puro when I get a chance, sure.

[Jon The GOAT]

Thanks for testing this, guys. Hopefully touring gets boosted a bit because I really would be looking to book actual tours if I end up playing Japan.

 

@Jaded: Which promotion did you test this with? BHOTWG or PGHW? Could you please test the body wear when using "Royal Puroresu"? The hardest non-hardcore style of wear (also in Pseudo-sport) is currently not featured in the C-verse apart from the ALF promotion. If I'm planning on using that then full-time touring might be actually the best long-term plan.

 

It was with all Japanese promotions.

 

I'll see if I can set something up using Royal Puro when I get a chance, sure.

 

Correct me if Im wrong but the default style of PGHW is actually Royal Puroresu. Did you mean something else?

[Jon The GOAT]

Quick glance there seems to be two tiers:

 

"This style is hard on workers due to its physical intensity and the risk of injury from all the high impact moves."

Fast & Furious (5SSW)

Respectful Wrestling

Royal Puroresu (PGHW)

Wrestling as a Sport (BCG, SAISHO)

 

"This intensely physical style results in high level wear and tear on the bodies of workers"

Episodic Sport

Faux MMA

Pseudo Sport

Shoot Style Wrestling

Strong Puroresu

 

I imagine the second one is more dangerous.

 

EX2010 uses Guerilla Warfare which has wear and tear as well. BHOTWG doesnt even need to worry about it at all. Same for WLW.

 

-----------------

 

And obviously adding the extra note that the best long term plan is probably neither constant nor touring but a mix of both

[spiffyone]

Someone mentioned this in one of the other threads, and I only mention it because you stated that under the constant schedule the smaller companies began broadcasting events and TV shows: do touring companies controlled by the AI start up broadcasting deals as well? That person in that other thread stated that such touring companies failed to sign broadcasting deals in sims. I don't recall if they did or didn't in 2016, which means they either didn't or it wasn't very often that they did.

 

If it is accurate that touring companies either don't or are less likely to set up TV shows, then that right there may be a major part of the discrepancy because while the TV revenue you mentioned wasn't large, TV does have an impact on company pop which has an impact on gates for events.

 

The touring system absolutely needed and still needs an overhaul. There was no real way to replicate it in 2016. The kinda sorta closest I came to doing that was either going with a constant schedule with a bunch of events in a month as another poster stated ITT, or keeping the touring schedule but setting up TV for mostly 3v3 matches and sprinkling a couple of major events in the midst of the tour. Neither of those was very close to how tours operated in the past nor presently.

 

The solution would be to, yeah, have batch importance for the tours and allow for select importance and aims for parts of the tour (so some dates of the tour would be more important than others, have different focus aims, etc.).

 

As an aside: you mentioned "glorified house shows" earlier. That's a problem for historical mods, because house shows were actually more important than TV shows pre-mid to late '90s (TV shows served as advertising for the house shows). Guys half-assed it during the TV most of the time, not for house shows. Spot shows (which weren't the same as house shows) yeah, they'd not work anywhere near 100% for thse, but they went all out at house shows because those were the money makers. ...spot shows...that's another thing that should be added. Along with C level TV shows.

[Jon The GOAT]

Someone mentioned this in one of the other threads, and I only mention it because you stated that under the constant schedule the smaller companies began broadcasting events and TV shows: do touring companies controlled by the AI start up broadcasting deals as well? That person in that other thread stated that such touring companies failed to sign broadcasting deals in sims. I don't recall if they did or didn't in 2016, which means they either didn't or it wasn't very often that they did.

 

If it is accurate that touring companies either don't or are less likely to set up TV shows, then that right there may be a major part of the discrepancy because while the TV revenue you mentioned wasn't large, TV does have an impact on company pop which has an impact on gates for events.

 

The touring system absolutely needed and still needs an overhaul. There was no real way to replicate it in 2016. The kinda sorta closest I came to doing that was either going with a constant schedule with a bunch of events in a month as another poster stated ITT, or keeping the touring schedule but setting up TV for mostly 3v3 matches and sprinkling a couple of major events in the midst of the tour. Neither of those was very close to how tours operated in the past nor presently.

 

The solution would be to, yeah, have batch importance for the tours and allow for select importance and aims for parts of the tour (so some dates of the tour would be more important than others, have different focus aims, etc.).

 

As an aside: you mentioned "glorified house shows" earlier. That's a problem for historical mods, because house shows were actually more important than TV shows pre-mid to late '90s (TV shows served as advertising for the house shows). Guys half-assed it during the TV most of the time, not for house shows. Spot shows (which weren't the same as house shows) yeah, they'd not work anywhere near 100% for thse, but they went all out at house shows because those were the money makers. ...spot shows...that's another thing that should be added. Along with C level TV shows.

 

They wouldnt broadcast TV shows, they'd simply broadcast those "constant" events on whatever deal they could get. But this is going to happen whether or not you're doing Constant or Touring.

 

The difference is this:

 

In Touring: SAISHO (i'll use this as the example) will sign two deals with Shogun (a broadcaster) within the first two months because it qualifies. One deal will be for Touring Highlights (you cannot broadcast touring intent shows, instead you sign touring highlight deals for a bit of money/pop maintenance, its EXTREMELY inconsequential, not at all a money maker). The other deal will be to broadcast the event at the end of the tour. This is how companies bigger than SAISHO are able to make some measure of profit because the event deal will usually rack up a decent amount of money from ticket + broadcasting. This is why PGHW goes from 175K to 1M in a month. The PPV deal they have is very lucrative.

 

In Constant: SAISHO will only sign one deal, the same event deal with Shogun. Since all of their events are normal intent, they will ultimately broadcast all their events on there. Much like its unrealistic for Touring to not air anything, its also unrealistic for SAISHO to air everything. This is why I dont advocate for Constant as the solution. Really it should be a balance.

 

Another thing to note: Adam has stated that if a schedule is set as Fixed and the company already has a "Touring Intent" show scheduled, the company will never generate a TV show.

 

But youve nailed it on the head the discrepancy. Touring prevents companies from having access to more broadcasting revenue. If they had a more reasonable amount of Normal Intent then they'd have a far more reasonable income.

 

In the real world, virtually all of the Japanese companies (PGHW to at least 5SSW) would have their own streaming service and would be broadcasting a pretty decent amount (around 40 to 60% imo) of their non-PPV/Major events on there. Then a percentage would be regular tour that would go on the highlights. And another would be their actual PPV.

 

I genuinely feel like in 2020, most companies in the game shouldve had some measure of streaming service but at least the game is set up that they typically all end up on SOMETHING before too long. EVen if the income generated from broadcasting is way too much at the moment.

 

--

 

Im not very experienced with older mods & how broadcasting works, but yes from what I understand, the game doesnt do an amazing job at replicating how it used to work. Im not sure if thats been altered for 2020 or not with how many broadcasting options there are and with the increasing prominence of the eras feature. I'll have to leave that to people more experienced xD I think its certainly worth discussing about but hopefully this is something mod makers of older eras are figuring out how to deal with in the best way.

[daman077c]

So, I think something is being overlooked, in terms of 'realism' when it comes to the whole money aspect of the "touring vs. constant" schedule, and I said this over on the Discord:

 

Japanese promotions don't make their money touring, especially if they're promoting their shows on their own (as in, they don't have a local promoter paying the promotion to come in, which is the vast majority of touring shows, outside of the current Joshi scene - and even then, there's a select few local promoters still out there).

 

I do agree that modders need to go through and adequately create tour schedules and not just have them made through the database, as you can then set the intents correctly.

 

At it's base, though, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the current system... unless I'm missing a ton of stuff (and likely, I am). The patch that lowered touring costs was actually a very good idea, as it brings things more in line with the real world, in that there are (somewhat) reduced costs for most touring shows.

[PW_Fandom]

Thoughts?

 

Patch 15.

"Did some work on stopping touring show workers gaining popularity and momentum at too rapid of a rate, by request"

[Jon The GOAT]

Thoughts?

 

Patch 15.

"Did some work on stopping touring show workers gaining popularity and momentum at too rapid of a rate, by request"

 

*shrug* doesnt bother me one way or another.

 

Logically, people shouldnt be gaining pop/momentum on those touring intent shows too fast so it makes sense. The pop/momentum gain would come when I decide to air one of the touring shows on PGHW World or what have you, and have Kikuchi pin Jimbo in a tag main event to set up their singles match at the coming PPV.

 

Or when Im running PGHW cup, broadcast those shows, and have Simon Flemmingway run through three big names in the tournament ahead of a huge match against Jimbo to present him as a legitimate threat (no id never push Simon that hard lol).

 

On paper it makes sense.

[tryker2710]

As of patch 15 I think the default Contant schedule is now even better again than the default Touring schedule

[Hawk1665]

I think the big issues are thus:

 

1) The current system of touring isn't realistic. Some tours in reality are more important then others. As it is, 2020 handles them all the same, wrestlers give about 50% or so effort. The G-1 or the Champion's Carnival are technically "tours" but are where some of the greatest wrestling has happened currently and historically. If you did that in the tour system they'd half ass it. The G-1 has been the gold standard in modern wrestling but you wouldn't have that in 2020.

 

2) The bonuses from the touring system aren't strong enough. You don't save enough wear and tear on workers or other bonuses to make up for lost opportunities. Supposedly you're saving your workers bodies but the tests done show it isn't enough to offset it.

 

3) Which ties into above, if you do touring you are handicapping yourself. Constant is better in every way but if you choose to be "realistic" (even though the realistic nature of the tour system is questionable) then what you gain is not in anyway offset by what you lose. You can 100% just as easily set up shows on constant to mirror real life touring schedules and reap all the benefits without any of the negatives and IMO, it's even more realistic to do that then the current tour system since you can manually set the importance of each event if you want. Your random "Road to" in Aichi can be minor but your G-1 can be all out instead of everything being average.

[ubernoob]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Wazza" data-cite="Wazza" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I am not really familiar with NJPW or how they book shows in RW. How are they different to TEW 2020? Is it as someone wrote above? Mainly Touring shows with a few "bigger" (constant) shows sprinkled in between them? Is there more to it, or is that it?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Using TEW20 terms, I'd say New Japan books like this:</p><p> </p><p> Touring Shows - Your events like "Road to Destruction Night 98". Normally just filled with a lot of 6-man and tags.</p><p> </p><p> Lesser Events - Shows like FantasticaMania, G1 Climax/BOSJ/Tag tournament block days and things like New Years Dash. These shows all have a purpose, but delivering the best matchups possible is not that purpose. Some of these shows (G1 especially) will have days where the matchups are bigger, but the show itself still isn't the most important thing.</p><p> </p><p> Normal Events - Your WrestleKingdoms (and for the sake of the game) your shows like G1 Finals. The big culmination events that even the casual fans get excited for.</p><p> </p><p> Throwaway Shows - If you want to book stuff like retirement shows for people, use this.</p><p> </p><p> People might get upset that I'm saying G1 is lesser but in reality those shows are. You can't say "oh man night 3 of G1 every year shreds." If you happen to put on shows of a very high quality, you'll still gain pop. But you won't lose any when your block matchups might not be the best or in down years of the company. Plus who knows pre-booking might help that, but New Japan is running small venues until the end. The lesser attendance is reflected in game.</p>

[Capelli King]

<p>Yeah, i have been doing testing with the touring system and i think the main issue is that constant is overpowered in general. I think the penalties for the workers should be much higher on their bodies, that is a good starting point. </p><p> </p><p>

I also think that spamming events (especially PPV) should have more significant penalties on returns. I think anything more than 2 PPV events per month should get bigger hit's in attendance and buy rates. </p><p> </p><p>

I do not think it is necessarily the touring that is the problem, i think the problem is with the constant events.</p>

[PW_Fandom]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ubernoob" data-cite="ubernoob" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Lesser Events - Shows like FantasticaMania, G1 Climax/BOSJ/Tag tournament block days and things like New Years Dash. These shows all have a purpose, but delivering the best matchups possible is not that purpose. Some of these shows (G1 especially) will have days where the matchups are bigger, but the show itself still isn't the most important thing.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Bro, some of the best matches of the year happen at BOSJ and G1 and I don't just mean the finals. Yes half the card in G1 in particularly is multi-man's with the block that isn't featured setting up the next set of bouts, but the main bouts on each of the G1 show's are almost unanimously lit as heck, they are in no way lesser shows and draw major international signups to World every year.</p>

[Dalton]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="PW_Fandom" data-cite="PW_Fandom" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Bro, some of the best matches of the year happen at BOSJ and G1 and I don't just mean the finals. Yes half the card in G1 in particularly is multi-man's with the block that isn't featured setting up the next set of bouts, but the main bouts on each of the G1 show's are almost unanimously lit as heck, they are in no way lesser shows and draw major international signups to World every year.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You are right, but in terms of the game, I think I'd agree with ubernoob. Yeah the matches are great, but the block day shows are usually in smaller venues and have a smaller crowd. It wouldn't be accurate for the game to consider 'G1 Climax Night 4' the same level of show as 'G1 Climax Finals' and the same goes for any other tournament. </p><p> </p><p> I just went through cagematch to see their attendances, and most G1 shows were drawing ~3000-5000, and the final had over 12,000. I get your point, but to translate it to gameplay their significance level or whatever would have to be lower. </p><p> </p><p> Unless I'm wrong and the game somehow takes all of that into account...I've only fiddled with a touring schedule a little bit in 2020.</p>

[ubernoob]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="PW_Fandom" data-cite="PW_Fandom" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Bro, some of the best matches of the year happen at BOSJ and G1 and I don't just mean the finals. Yes half the card in G1 in particularly is multi-man's with the block that isn't featured setting up the next set of bouts, but the main bouts on each of the G1 show's are almost unanimously lit as heck, they are in no way lesser shows and draw major international signups to World every year.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Point me somewhere where I said the matchups were bad.</p><p> </p><p> They are lesser shows, in TEW definitions. Guess what, if your Night 3 is Block A and the matchups are Jay White/Okada, Tana/MiSu, Ospreay/Naito and Goto/Makabe and you put on a classic of a show... guess what! You'll still get popularity! It doesn't mean the show is worthless.</p>

[southside_hitmen]

<p>You are all saying the same thing here.</p><p> </p><p>

Touring is tour, tour, tour, event</p><p>

Constant is event, event, event.</p><p> </p><p>

Neither are reflective of a current “real life” tour schedule. </p><p> </p><p>

Go back to what the OP was saying. If you have an empty schedule and you set the AI to touring, he wants it to “spawn” a <strong>variety</strong> of events (tour, lesser, etc...) as that’s better reflective of reality AND would help AI financially.</p><p> </p><p>

This way, you could “sim” things like tour openers at k-hall, block finals, etc... better, things that do draw more people out or are a bigger deal than a standard tour show.</p>

[Hawk1665]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ubernoob" data-cite="ubernoob" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Point me somewhere where I said the matchups were bad.<p> </p><p> They are lesser shows, in TEW definitions. Guess what, if your Night 3 is Block A and the matchups are Jay White/Okada, Tana/MiSu, Ospreay/Naito and Goto/Makabe and you put on a classic of a show... guess what! You'll still get popularity! It doesn't mean the show is worthless.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But the problem is some of those night shows have the best matches of the entire tournament. With 2020 as it is, if you use the tour system they'd half ass those events which is not what happens in any major tournament in Japan.</p>

[Hawk1665]

You are all saying the same thing here.

 

Touring is tour, tour, tour, event

Constant is event, event, event.

 

Neither are reflective of a current “real life” tour schedule.

 

Go back to what the OP was saying. If you have an empty schedule and you set the AI to touring, he wants it to “spawn” a variety of events (tour, lesser, etc...) as that’s better reflective of reality AND would help AI financially.

 

This way, you could “sim” things like tour openers at k-hall, block finals, etc... better, things that do draw more people out or are a bigger deal than a standard tour show.

 

That's...not really what he's saying if I'm reading it right. He's saying the current tour system is definitively worse then just running constant. You make more money, you get better shows, you get better popularity gains all from constant. And further tests in this thread show that any positives to touring are negligible at best.

 

He says he's going to do a mix *personally* but that the current system is broken.

[southside_hitmen]

Now, if I were to be asked if I wanted anything out of this it would be to make touring worthwhile. I dont want to feel like an idiot for playing a touring schedule especially when its not like its a great reflection of how real world touring works anyways so I dont feel bound to stick with it for authenticity or realism reasons anyways.

 

This ^

[ubernoob]

There's just not enough variety in "Touring." Honestly some variation of this is how I picture it working in my brain.

 

There needs to be 3 tiers.

 

Tier 1 would be capstone end of tour shows. There is no limit on crowd size and maybe you get a slightly smaller boost from prestige compared to constant schedule events.

 

Tier 2 would be regular touring days like the G1/BOSJ blocks. Due to putting these out and treating them as big deals in the tours, you will pay full production costs. I'd say there should be some type of cap on what you can draw though. There's a reason New Japan runs small venues during the G1 and it's because that much wrestling in that short a time span is literally only for the most hardcore of NJPW fans. Say you'd draw 12,000 for an event maybe you're capped at 5,000 for these shows in attendance. (I'd say put some math work into it and tie it to how relevant the tour is seen so if it's the G1 it will be better attended than FantasticaMania.)

 

Tier 3 would be the "road to" events with lesser expectations. These are cheap to run and expectations are lowered.

 

When the AI generates a tour, generate it with a mix of Tier 3, 2 and 1 (obviously only one or two of the tier 1) events. Treat each "tour" it sets up almost like it's own TV show that has floating importance/prestige over the course of the game. Like I picture the screen to take care of tours being a hybrid between the TV Show and Event screen. Maybe the ability to set intents/importance for tours. Like "Tag Team tour" so the AI knows to at least book somewhat of a tag-team focused tour. TEW2025 maybe.

 

In terms of broadcasting, Tier 1 and 2 would be broadcast out and Tier 3 would be run as the highlight type show.

 

Then have the AI set up a "Season Finale" event like WrestleKingdom once or twice per year.

 

I feel like that would fix a lot of the issues, but I have no idea if any of that is feasible in terms of coding.

[consortium11]

But the problem is some of those night shows have the best matches of the entire tournament. With 2020 as it is, if you use the tour system they'd half ass those events which is not what happens in any major tournament in Japan.

 

From what I picked up from ubernoob's posts he wasn't suggesting that the major tournaments/tours in real world Japan are the equivalent of TEW's current touring system but that those major tours are the equivalent of TEW's "lesser" intent shows (lower attendance and popularity gain) with the culminating shows being "normal" intent shows. That seems to correspond pretty accurately to real life; a typical mid-G1 block show has much lower attendance than the finals and while the G-1 has obviously been key to NJPW's growth in recent years I think that's been more down to overall strong G-1's in general (so lots of really good shows in a short time period even if they're "lesser") and specifically good finals rather than say B-Block Night Four alone being a great show and boosting the entire company. I don't really play with lesser intent shows much so I don't know what impact they have on worker effort; does it tank that in the same way that tour and throwaway shows do?

 

Honestly, I think the G-1 in general is a pretty hard thing to program into the game under the current system; being in the G-1 is prestigious and workers almost always want to do their best during it but it's not like they go all-out every night. The multi-mans from the block which isn't having tournament matches are obviously largely rest and recovery with a little bit of storyline thrown in and if we're being honest I think we can all even think of tournament matches where the workers didn't really go all out, instead saving their powder for when a "showcase" type match appeared. Frankly, for a player to book it accurately as things stand they'd need to get very familiar with the in-game editor, adding and subtracting the Dynamo attribute (never holds back during matches, even on unimportant shows) as needed on a worker-by-worker, match-by-match basis... but that's a vast amount of effort for each and every show.

[MFJJ]

A quick and dirty way to have different tour shows have varying prestige would just be for the importance of the final show reflect on the individual tour shows.

 

PGHW Night of PRIDE has legendary importance, therefore the shows on that tour would be viewed as a bigger deal than the shows leading up to Night of KINGS (highly regarded). And so on down the line.

 

[edited] to clarify, I'm not suggesting every PRIDE Tour show should have legendary importance. Just imagine that whatever the baseline attendance, prestige, pop gain, etc. you would get for a newly created event would be the ideal. Multiply that by the importance of the tour ending event, and that's where you land for the tour shows. So Night of PRIDE, which has 100% importance, has a tour consisting of a bunch of, essentially, lower-cost events. The Night of KINGS tour would be 80% of that. It rewards the building of landmark shows, and seems to me at first blush anyway to be kind of the way it works in real life.

[MapRef41N93W]

So, I think something is being overlooked, in terms of 'realism' when it comes to the whole money aspect of the "touring vs. constant" schedule, and I said this over on the Discord:

 

Japanese promotions don't make their money touring, especially if they're promoting their shows on their own (as in, they don't have a local promoter paying the promotion to come in, which is the vast majority of touring shows, outside of the current Joshi scene - and even then, there's a select few local promoters still out there).

 

Can you expand on this? If we're trying to figure out how the game can better simulate real-life companies, it might be useful to know more about why the real companies operate the way they do.

 

I mean, if Japanese promotions don't make their money touring, why do they bother to tour at all? What's the benefit that outweighs the costs of running the shows?

[ubernoob]

Can you expand on this? If we're trying to figure out how the game can better simulate real-life companies, it might be useful to know more about why the real companies operate the way they do.

 

I mean, if Japanese promotions don't make their money touring, why do they bother to tour at all? What's the benefit that outweighs the costs of running the shows?

 

Here's how New Japan made it's revenue from August 1, 2018 - July 31, 2019:

 

Gross: $50 Million

 

Ticket sales: ~$25 million (which averages ~57.33/ticket, attendance was 436,000 paid.)

 

Merchandise: ~$15 million

 

Content: ~$10 Million (content is basically NJPW World and TV.)