Loyalty too strong IMO

[nerodragomir1]

So I love the loyalty thing, obviously. It's a really nice thing to have when you're a small company, but I think loyalty is too strong. The fact a wrestler can be offered 1 million dollars a month & they will still turn it down when they aren't making 5% of that in a full year doesn't make sense when you really think about it. I would just like to suggest maybe making it less of an iron hold, more of a strong deterrent for them to sign with other companies. At a point, the wrestler has got to say yes.

[nerodragomir1]

So I love the loyalty thing, obviously. It's a really nice thing to have when you're a small company, but I think loyalty is too strong. The fact a wrestler can be offered 1 million dollars a month & they will still turn it down when they aren't making 5% of that in a full year doesn't make sense when you really think about it. I would just like to suggest maybe making it less of an iron hold, more of a strong deterrent for them to sign with other companies. At a point, the wrestler has got to say yes.

[Jaysin]

I've complained about this every iteration of the game and it never changes. Doubt it will.

[St. Templar]

I completely agree. As a famed wrestler once said, "Everybody's got a price." And while we might like to think that it's just not possible that someone would walk away from that kind of loyalty in the face of a huge contract offer, that just doesn't make the least bit of sense in the real world.

 

I would strongly suggest (as has been suggested before) that there should be some limits to loyalty.

 

St.T

[djskeemask]

I just use the editor

[DarK_RaideR]

I respectfully disagree. Loyalty is meant to mainly simulate the situation in Japan, where workers tend to stick with certain promotions, especially if they were trained in their dojos and came up their ranks. You won't see New Japan Pro Wrestling poach any NOAH top talent, and I'm not counting KENTA because he'd already made the jump to NXT as Hideo Itami before joining NJPW. You won't see Tanahashi join WWE, because he's carried NJPW through their darkest periods, he's a company guy through and through, much like Ishii or Okada. Plus money's not always the solution to the problem, I'm pretty sure Kenny Omega got offered good money but decided to stick with NJPW and then AEW instead of joining WWE, I presume because of how he believes wrestling should be presented and because he was worried of how he'd be utilized in McMahon-land.

 

It's not limited to Japan either, I can think of some guys who stuck with ECW to the bitter end and you could argue that WWE weren't exactly lining up to sign Sandman, but guys like Tommy Dreamer would never leave until the promotion was closed.

 

In my humble opinion, loyalty (and I'm talking company loyalty here, not the relationship between workers) is best left to Japan and maybe some extremely limited cases in the US indies or perhaps Mexico. Plus I feel I should clarify that I'm mostly talking about how TEW loyalty works in the CVerse. If you're referring to a real world or other mod, that might have to do with the mod maker adding loyalty a bit too liberally?

[Blake Trask]

Money already buys literally everything else in the game, it's nice to have at least one thing that throwing enough cash at can't override.

[Jaysin]

If you're the number one promotion in the world and offer six figures to a talent working for a regional at best promotion, no talent alive would turn that down.

 

If the everyone's got a price doesn't work for you, then maybe we need loyalty to change more than it does. I think right now the only way to lose loyalty is if the promotion goes under or fires the talent.

 

Nakamura was loyal to New Japan for ages. He turned down WWE at least once and then they threw a truck full of money at him and boom, he signed. His priorities shifted. That happens in the real world and the game should reflect that. New Japan obviously didn't want to lose one of their top stars, but he had accomplished everything there and had no reason to stay there or be loyal.

[DarK_RaideR]

I think right now the only way to lose loyalty is if the promotion goes under or fires the talent.

Or if the talent quits, walks away etc. Well, it doesn't disappear, but you can at least make them an offer and hire them.

 

Again, I brought up Omega as an example of how I interpret the loyalty mechanic as more than just strictly loyalty itself. Some people are worried about creative and how they'll be (mis)used, some don't fancy moving or the harder work/tour schedule, some want to remain weekend warriors at their local promotions, some are emotionally invested in a company, especially if they're also involved in several backstage roles... Just because a company is #1 and can throw a ton of money around doesn't mean they'll always be able to get anyone they want. And if someone can't live with that, they can always circumvent it via the editor like djskeemask said.

[Jaysin]

I just think loyalty is too rigid in it's current form. Maybe personality attributes should be considered?

[DarK_RaideR]

Wouldn't argue with you on that one. There's already stuff like Money Motivated and Fame Hungry, but they seem to have limited effect. Might be interesting to see them rival loyalty instead of loyalty completely overriding those traits.

[Jaysin]

I knew we'd reach some sort of agreement somewhere. Money Motivated and Fame Hungry talents could have a chance to break their loyalty.

 

I know in my personal saves, I always mass edit and remove all promotion loyalties just because a lot of mod makers don't really understand the mechanic and give it to the wrong people. That's not meant to be an attack on mod makers in the slightest either. Not everyone is going to understand every mechanic of the game. I don't understand a whole lot sometimes.

[St. Templar]

A personality attribute that marks loyalty to a particular promotion...or even keeps them with the promotion they currently work for so long as a contract is offered (I think that one already exists, actually) would be better than the current system. Although, I still say there should be limits to loyalty.

 

It's not that I think everybody's just out to make a buck over all other considerations, by the way. I simply think (as has been suggested before) that a strong connection to a company can be overridden by other factors. The Nakamura example is a solid one for the reasons previously stated, and I would add the loyalty that Fergal Devitt had to New Japan, which was very similar in many ways, but the opportunity to wrestle in WWE (money and global fame played into that, I'm certain) was too big a draw for him.

 

And I don't feel like the "Omega was loyal to NJPW/AEW really fits because there were other factors at work (namely that Omega didn't think WWE would use him in the way that New Japan and AEW would; I mean we all saw how they used Moxley/Ambrose...). That's not really strong loyalty to either of those companies insofar as the game mechanic seems to work. I've always felt that a worker who thinks the WWE brain trust will have good creative for them (AJ Styles? Seth Rollins? Cody Rhodes?) will go, since WWE won't really be outbid for a talent they really want to acquire.

 

St.T

[KeyserSoze]

I would prefer a system with a "soft" and "hard" levels of loyalty. A soft could be "broke" if certains conditions (size of companies, wealth... ofer). A hard couldn't

[St. Templar]

I would prefer a system with a "soft" and "hard" levels of loyalty. A soft could be "broke" if certains conditions (size of companies, wealth... ofer). A hard couldn't

 

That would actually be a pretty decent compromise.

 

St.T

[Teh_Showtime]

I would prefer a system with a "soft" and "hard" levels of loyalty. A soft could be "broke" if certains conditions (size of companies, wealth... ofer). A hard couldn't

 

What would be considered a level of hard loyalty to a promotion? I genuinely don’t feel it exists. Maybe personal relationships, but then they’d be bound to the company if a random event has the person they are loyal to leave as well.

 

We’ve seen so many people considered lifers end up leaving their home promotion and it’s usually encouraged at one point. Io left Stardom, Shinsuke left NJPW, Kota left DDT, even KENTA even left NOAH and that’s all in the last 5 or so years.

 

There should be some circumstances where no amount of loyalty is that strong

[MisterSocko]

that’s all in the last 5 or so years

Maybe the "soft" and "hard" loyalties could be something you could set in the "Eras"? Then you could set the 2010-2020s to have "soft" loyalty, and stronger loyalty in previous eras.

[Peria]

I swear I thought that's why they had the two loyalties in the game now? Like the first level, you COULD buy them. The second? No way. True Born talent would never betray them, like... say Naito for NJPW. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, they both do the same thing.

[NietoDeRey]

I've complained about this every iteration of the game and it never changes. Doubt it will.

 

My biggest frustration with loyalty system is the inability for it to be removed.

Manually removing loyalty is such a gigantic pain.

[NietoDeRey]

I swear I thought that's why they had the two loyalties in the game now? Like the first level, you COULD buy them. The second? No way. True Born talent would never betray them, like... say Naito for NJPW. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, they both do the same thing.

 

I mean its so bogus. Historically when Japan was actually divided, "loyalists" jumped from NJPW and AJPW all the time.

I do think loyalty should be in the game, but it should be like a random attribute the same as the Homebody trait where wrestler will move.

 

The concept of loyalty for modern day Japanese wrestlers is silly.. was Ibushi loyal to DDT that had him for the first like 8 years of his career and built his brand? No of course not, he wanted to go to the biggest show where he gets paid the most much like most professionals. The only reason most Japanese wrestlers are "loyal" to NJPW is because its the biggest show that pays them the most money, and even then the few times where that isnt the case (Nakamura, KENTA) you see how loyal they are.

 

Theres no such thing as loyalty in wrestling, its a business, if you go back into RWC mods you will see Cody Rhodes with loyalty to AEW. You see how silly these things are when reality hits.

[MisterSocko]

Theres no such thing as loyalty in wrestling

I'm sure Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and to a certain extent Bret Hart, would beg to differ

That said, loyalty should probably be very rare, and should be set to get rarer and rarer from the mid-1990s on, as it became more and more "acceptable" to jump ship for money.

These days we all expect "guy who was still with WWE a few months ago signs with AEW/Impact the second he's legally allowed to", but "WWF guy signs with WCW" used to be a big surprise, at least for big names, and sure you could argue that it was partially because we didn't have the internet back then so it was easier to keep things secret, but it's also because audiences expected some level of loyalty from people who were perceived as "a WWF star".

I'm not familiar enough with the Japanese scene to say for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that in Japan too, 30 years ago loyalty was a way bigger deal than it is now, so you don't want to dismiss the concept of loyalty entirely.

[Teh_Showtime]

Loyalty as is in TEW, was only ever meant to be for Japanese companies.

[DarK_RaideR]

Loyalty as is in TEW, was only ever meant to be for Japanese companies.

This. I can't stress this enough.

 

Comparing how CVerse loyalty works to real world examples always includes the risk of mod makers and us players making assumptions that are later disproved by reality, but for the sake of counter-arguments:

Historically when Japan was actually divided, "loyalists" jumped from NJPW and AJPW all the time.

Just as people jumped between WWF and WCW in the 90s. Just because some people were heavily featured and presented as a big deal, I wouldn't say any of them were "loyalists" in the strict sense of the term, in the sense that they wouldn't even entertain the idea of jumping ship regardless of money, promises or employer status.

The concept of loyalty for modern day Japanese wrestlers is silly.. was Ibushi loyal to DDT that had him for the first like 8 years of his career and built his brand? No of course not, he wanted to go to the biggest show where he gets paid the most much like most professionals. The only reason most Japanese wrestlers are "loyal" to NJPW is because its the biggest show that pays them the most money, and even then the few times where that isnt the case (Nakamura, KENTA) you see how loyal they are.

Again, wouldn't call Ibushi "loyal" to DDT, he just built his name there and was one of their major players, but not loyal. As further proof, NJPW hesitated for quite some time to pull the trigger on him, because they considered him liable to jump ship and leave them high and dry, much like Nakamura or the Elite did. Same way Minoru Suzuki seems to be a staple of modern NJPW, but he was with other companies for long enough to be considered a "renegade" and an "outsider/invader" which is how Suzuki-gun originally came to be. These days he seems happier spending time in the US, much like Jay White. Wouldn't call either of those two "loyal" to NJPW, and White even came up in their Dojo, they're just major players in the company. KENTA used to be NOAH's ace and one would be tempted to call him loyal until he made the jump to NXT, but upon joining NJPW he specifically said in an interview that he came back to New Japan because at that point, NJPW was a company with global reach and audience; this wasn't the case when he left NOAH, which is why he chose to sign with WWE instead.

Theres no such thing as loyalty in wrestling, its a business, if you go back into RWC mods you will see Cody Rhodes with loyalty to AEW. You see how silly these things are when reality hits.

As I mentioned, that was probably us as wrestling fans making that assumption given Cody's path and the fact that he was one of the founding members. Similar case to KENTA's "loyalty" deal above. Furthermore, there are things besides money that wrestlers take into account, from a lighter work schedule to how they will be used and presented creatively. I've mentioned Kenny Omega's hesitation to join WWE prior to AEW's formation, we've heard of the Outsiders counting the lighter WCW schedule as a bonus on top of the money they'd be earning too. People tend to interpret a lot of those as part of the loyalty mechanic, when in reality they aren't. Even MisterSocko's mention of Taker and Michaels earlier sounds like a valid point, but I wouldn't call that loyalty either. Those guys probably feared they'd get lost in the WCW shuffle and never take Hogan's spot, so they chose to stick with McMahon, be pushed harder and probably fare better in terms of perception, popularity and income in the long run.

[Skummy]

Loyalty as is in TEW, was only ever meant to be for Japanese companies.

 

Exactly.

 

The complaints here are largely about the feature being misused by mods more than the feature itself being too rigid. It's meant to reflect cases like NJPW and AJPW (more historically than present day) where a wrestler who trained and debuted with a particular promotion was likely to stay with that promotion for most, if not all, of their career, and that to jump ship to a rival would be a major scandal. It's more than "this person made their name with this promotion" or "this wrestler worked there for a long time".

 

That said, I wouldn't object to some tweaks to the concept - someone who was loyal to a particular promotion might still sell them out if they're particularly money-oriented and you're throwing enough money at them, or their loyalty may fade over time if they're not treated well and their morale slips.

[MrDefarr]

The current loyalty never bothered me, but if you made it an internal statistic within the worker's relationship with the promotion, that could make things interesting.

 

As well, their loyalty could shift over time ("Dynamic Loyalty"), have it optional.