foolinc Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, d12345 said: I'm so confused about this sentiment. As a long time C-Verse player, consistent look and feel of default renders has always been tough to achieve. Even with mods having all current, past, and future workers rendered in a similar style (and free pictures) has not been done. We want thousands of unique worker images but push back against using a new tool that allows that to be a reasonable task? If this was such a task, how come the T-Verse has had the same look at feel from its start to the 2020 version despite having multiple people rendering the images? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWho87 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, Idolized said: I don’t think how the data converts to other games should be of major concern to the developer be fair Never said that it should be a concern, my point was that when converting a database from the current combined height/weight system, to a system that seperated height/weight, and then trying to correct this information, it was more hassle than it was worth, and that was changing it to a system that appears to be simplier than the changes currently described for TEW IX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 3 minutes ago, foolinc said: If this was such a task, how come the T-Verse has had the same look at feel from its start to the 2020 version despite having multiple people rendering the images? The same reason everyone has exactly the same sized shape head, faces the same way and looks near identical....because the entire thing is made with fixed assets that people pick from. Every bald head is the same bald head. Everybody has one of 10 sets of eyes etc. Not saying this to diss the Thunderverse - it's just the only practical way to do that many renders. Edited July 3 by EdJames 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatingstuff88 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, EdJames said: The same reason everyone has exactly the same sized shape head, faces the same way and looks near identical....because the entire thing is made with fixed assets that people pick from. Every bald head is the same bald head. Everybody has one of 10 sets of eyes etc. Not saying this to diss the Thunderverse - it's just the only practical way to do that many renders. Exactly, i get its the T-Verse art style (and also not a dig), but to me it looks way too dated 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I like the new heights and weights. The weight limits will be nice for historical real world games as they aren't used as much anymore. I hope there's a way we can ignore them for belts even if the mod sets them. Maybe a checkbox or something in the game settings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhd1 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, beatingstuff88 said: Exactly, i get its the T-Verse art style (and also not a dig), but to me it looks way too dated The first ThunderVerse renders were created thirteen years ago so it is dated. We're just waiting for 2011/12 DAZ renders to come back into fashion in the same way indie games like going for a PS1 aesthetic. 3 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenCycle Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I think the AI images are a very good necessary evil. The default Cornellverse images have become a huge turnoff for me (funnily enough, because of the Thunderverse images). I think it'll be a better look for new players. Hope they look good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGN91 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 The Geo Tag thing is simply awesome. Love the addition of that. For me as a Puro nerd it's just a great way to emulate all those smaller regional promotions. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 8 minutes ago, EdJames said: The same reason everyone has exactly the same sized shape head, faces the same way and looks near identical....because the entire thing is made with fixed assets that people pick from. Every bald head is the same bald head. Everybody has one of 10 sets of eyes etc. Not saying this to diss the Thunderverse - it's just the only practical way to do that many renders. I would disagree that the Thunderverse has the same shaped head but isn't the complaint that people wanted render consistency? So wouldn't that lead to less obvious variance by it's nature? Also the limit in assets is because DAZ does not allow illegal assets. Applying the same standards to the specific AI mentioned in this thread would lead to far less than ten sets of eyes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 4 minutes ago, CGN91 said: The Geo Tag thing is simply awesome. Love the addition of that. For me as a Puro nerd it's just a great way to emulate all those smaller regional promotions. Agreed! I have a ton of ideas regarding the tag system. Like limiting companies to only run bars or casinos, or having states in the US be properly simulated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikbot Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 35 minutes ago, d12345 said: I'm so confused about this sentiment. As a long time C-Verse player, consistent look and feel of default renders has always been tough to achieve. Even with mods having all current, past, and future workers rendered in a similar style (and free pictures) has not been done. We want thousands of unique worker images but push back against using a new tool that allows that to be a reasonable task? I partially agree, AI is absolutely a tool but it's a tool that shouldn't be used for profit as it technically steals from other people and learns through other people's inputs. Again, had he switched them around (Daz renders come with the game, AI can be downloaded seperately), I would've been fine with it and wouldn't be complaining. However, that's not the case. I don't care if they look "dated". AI is inherently soulless and the renders, while dated, have a presence to them. Edited July 3 by Chikbot 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Chikbot said: I partially agree, AI is absolutely a tool but it's a tool that shouldn't be used for profit as it technically steals from other people and learns through other people's inputs. Again, had he switched them around (Daz renders come with the game, AI can be downloaded seperately), I would've been fine with it and wouldn't be complaining. However, that's not the case. I don't care if they look "dated". AI is inherently soulless and the renders, while dated, have a presence to them. So just playing devils advocate, if I draw a character by hand, am I not just aggregating everything I’ve seen in my life that matches that thing to output it to paper. I am then, less knowingly, stealing other people’s likenesses, to train my own interpretation of what things and people look like. Even if I draw it a certain way, that’ll have been amalgamated from lots of micro-learnings I’ve made as an individual. This is just the digitisation of that at scale. Now, if I render them in Daz and sell them to Adam, am I not using other people’s work (previous renders) to profit without their permission? If I do a Remmy Skye holding guns to his head with blue and green hair, am I not stealing the original renderer’s IP and breaching Jeff Hardy’s copyright, whom the character is very clearly based upon? Edited July 3 by EdJames 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Superman 3 of People Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 22 minutes ago, BrokenCycle said: I think the AI images are a very good necessary evil. The default Cornellverse images have become a huge turnoff for me (funnily enough, because of the Thunderverse images). I think it'll be a better look for new players. Hope they look good. "Necessary" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Last I checked, there's no requirement that GDS fires up the plagiarism machine instead of leaning on community assets or paying a real artist. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikbot Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, EdJames said: So just playing devils advocate, if I draw a character by hand, am I not just aggregating everything I’ve seen in my life that matches that this to output it. I am then, less knowingly, stealing other people’s likenesses, to train my own interpretation of what things and people look like. Even if I draw it a certain way, that’ll have been amalgamated from lots of micro-learnings I’ve made as an individual. This is just the digitisation of that at scale. There's a difference between inspiration and copying/tracing AI does the latter 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatingstuff88 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Chikbot said: I partially agree, AI is absolutely a tool but it's a tool that shouldn't be used for profit as it technically steals from other people and learns through other people's inputs. Again, had he switched them around (Daz renders come with the game, AI can be downloaded seperately), I would've been fine with it and wouldn't be complaining. However, that's not the case. I don't care if they look "dated". AI is inherently soulless and the renders, while dated, have a presence to them. I personally disagree, i mostly only play with AI renders now because a lot of the default renders just feel soulless and same-y to me For example, default Aaron Andrews and Matthew Keith almost look like brothers, compared to the AI which is much more vibrand and expresses more of their looks/character Default Matthew Keith Default Aaron Andrews Ai Matthew Keith AI Aaron Andrews Edited July 3 by beatingstuff88 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kje3334 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I can't comment on the AI stuff since it won't really affect me but I'm loving some of the smaller additions to the game. The height/weight, geo tag, and increased independent shows are huge wins for me! And that doesn't even touch the big changes! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 7 minutes ago, beatingstuff88 said: I personally disagree, i mostly only play with AI renders now because a lot of the default renders just feel soulless and same-y to me For example, default Aaron Andrews and Matthew Keith almost look like brothers, compared to the AI which is much more vibrand and expresses more of their looks/character Default Matthew Keith Default Aaron Andrews Ai Matthew Keith AI Aaron Andrews “But AI will make it soulless and everybody will look the same”… The alternative that nobody bats an eyelid at 👇🏻 Edited July 3 by EdJames 4 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 8 minutes ago, EdJames said: So just playing devils advocate, if I draw a character by hand, am I not just aggregating everything I’ve seen in my life that matches that thing to output it to paper. I am then, less knowingly, stealing other people’s likenesses, to train my own interpretation of what things and people look like. Even if I draw it a certain way, that’ll have been amalgamated from lots of micro-learnings I’ve made as an individual. This is just the digitisation of that at scale. Now, if I render them in Daz and sell them to Adam, am I not using other people’s work (previous renders) to profit without their permission? If I do a Remmy Skye holding guns to his head with blue and green hair, am I not stealing the original renderer’s IP and breaching Jeff Hardy’s copyright, whom the character is very clearly based upon? Legally and ethically no. You are a human learning. AI is a program, written to utilize base parts to create a new item. The program is not 'learning' as it is just a program. Human iterative learning is not equitable to a data scrub program taking copywritten images and utilizing them in code to create new images. I wont get too much into the ethics piece of it because its a lot and a very touchy subject at times but legally taking copywritten art, writing and code to put into an algorithm is IP theft in the US. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidanLFC1 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 5 minutes ago, Astil said: Legally and ethically no. You are a human learning. AI is a program, written to utilize base parts to create a new item. The program is not 'learning' as it is just a program. Human iterative learning is not equitable to a data scrub program taking copywritten images and utilizing them in code to create new images. I wont get too much into the ethics piece of it because its a lot and a very touchy subject at times but legally taking copywritten art, writing and code to put into an algorithm is IP theft in the US. In fairness though, there’s no liability on the part of Adam/GDS for the training material that the AI model is based upon, whether there’s copyrighted material in there or not. Appreciate some people may ethically oppose the use of AI in the game for many reasons (personally I’m not bothered and I see the benefit of using it within the context of the C-Verse), but really including it in the game isn’t doing anything legally wrong 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikbot Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 8 minutes ago, beatingstuff88 said: I personally disagree, i mostly only play with AI renders now because a lot of the default renders just feel soulless and same-y to me For example, default Aaron Andrews and Matthew Keith almost look like brothers, compared to the AI which is much more vibrand and expresses more of their looks/character Default Matthew Keith Default Aaron Andrews Ai Matthew Keith AI Aaron Andrews Yes, the sameyness is better than people's art getting stolen. I'd much rather have that. Plus using results directly from the database itself and not stuff fans have made is an easy target when all of that goes away with fan rendering Aaron Andrews Matthew Keith Do these two look the same to you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, AidanLFC1 said: In fairness though, there’s no liability on the part of Adam/GDS for the training material that the AI model is based upon, whether there’s copyrighted material in there or not. Appreciate some people may ethically oppose the use of AI in the game for many reasons (personally I’m not bothered and I see the benefit of using it within the context of the C-Verse), but really including it in the game isn’t doing anything legally wrong I truly hope so. Law is super unpredictable with tech and it is a risk for sure. Especially since the lawsuits were in place prior to the game releasing. Hopefully Im overthinking it. I tend to do that with more modern fad-tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatingstuff88 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 4 minutes ago, Chikbot said: Yes, the sameyness is better than people's art getting stolen. I'd much rather have that. Plus using results directly from the database itself and not stuff fans have made is an easy target when all of that goes away with fan rendering Aaron Andrews Matthew Keith Do these two look the same to you? I mean the subject are Default pictures aren't they? its those that are being turned into ai in IX so those are the examples i took, all i was saying is that you cant complain about AI being soulless and looking the same while you have the default pics where 11 different workers almost look the same (Like EdJames illustrates above) Of course you still have Fan rendering stuff, and before AI boomed i used a lot of those too, but with those you are also at the whim of the art style the creator uses. Your Matthew Keith for example is a lot more "natural" looking than Aaron Andrews. Not to mention that the render maker also wants to take their time to make every worker as good as possible (as they should!) but then you run into the problem (that i really dislike) that for example you have the whole of the "main" USA workers in that render style, cool, but all workers from Canada, Japan, Uk and Mexico will still look like gremlins untill the render maker gets to them. I get the AI complaints, but personally they have helped me a lot in coming up with workers and making them look consistently good since i am by nature not a creative person. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterSobchak Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, beatingstuff88 said: Not to mention that the render maker also wants to take their time to make every worker as good as possible (as they should!) but then you run into the problem (that i really dislike) that for example you have the whole of the "main" USA workers in that render style, cool, but all workers from Canada, Japan, Uk and Mexico will still look like gremlins untill the render maker gets to them. I’m trying to hurry up, but not rush I promise… 😅 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukin Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 There is something kinda ironic about the implementation AI generated imagery while confining the game to (assumption based on previous post) a very outdated looking and tiny 1280x720 window that can't be scaled, resized, or recognize the flippin' mouse wheel. 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 17 minutes ago, Chikbot said: Yes, the sameyness is better than people's art getting stolen. I'd much rather have that. Plus using results directly from the database itself and not stuff fans have made is an easy target when all of that goes away with fan rendering Aaron Andrews Matthew Keith Do these two look the same to you? They look super different. Now go make 3,000+ of them that all look unique and maintain the same style 😋 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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