Render Discussion Thread

[Wonk]

The majority of the new renders are excellent. Those that aren't can be replaced.

Good job, Ed.

[generalemergency]

Not going to lie, this has killed my enthusiasm a bit. 

These images are just so bad. I'm assuming the small size is because that's the largest the AI can go before breaking. But even then 

Everyone is bathed in shadows

Lots of Johnny Generics that blend together. 

Masked/face painted guys are especially bad. They look like they've dragged up from the lowest parts of the uncanny valley. 

[EdJames]

57 minutes ago, Self said:

I wish these games were popular and successful enough to justify massive art budgets to pay artists to create a whole cohesive universe, without using AI. Sadly, images for the default universe have always been cheap. Not quality, but cost. DAZ images by community was cheap. AI is now cheaper.

Generally I subscribe to the idea that if a project cannot afford artists, the project doesn't deserve art... but selfishly I like TEW and like art being in it. I've used AI art in my diary game too. I'm not above using a free tool for my own needs.

Specifically about this art, the photo realistic style isn't my cup of tea. I like the cartoon... although I will give credit to the better represented ages and ugliness of characters. Wrestlers are generally just blokes, not supermodels. 

I mostly wish pictures were used differently. 150x150 is so small, often shrunk on certain screens and shrunk further with the border option. If you're redoing all of the pictures anyway, with the speed of AI, why just do headshots? It's so dated, and so small. But this is less an argument of the art itself but rather the games UI.

I am a sucker for these full body, high resolution shots. Allows more detail to be added than just a head and shoulders.

[EdJames]

36 minutes ago, Wonk said:

The majority of the new renders are excellent. Those that aren't can be replaced.

Good job, Ed.

And will be 😁

Intent was always to create a consistent baseline and style and then led the alt and mod community go nuts reimagining characters as they did with the original Cornellverse. Ultimately I’m competing with something that’s evolved, and that people have fallen in love with, over the best part of a decade.

V1 was never going to be able to achieve that overnight. 

[EdJames]

4 minutes ago, generalemergency said:

Not going to lie, this has killed my enthusiasm a bit. 

These images are just so bad. I'm assuming the small size is because that's the largest the AI can go before breaking. But even then 

Everyone is bathed in shadows

Lots of Johnny Generics that blend together. 

Masked/face painted guys are especially bad. They look like they've dragged up from the lowest parts of the uncanny valley. 

These were all done in 1250x1250 originally and provided 150x150 - so the size and framed GIFs was a style choice by Adam. 

Agree and don’t like the shadows. Have redone the majority of them and will release that soon and they are all front lit and bathed in studio lighting. The differences between V5 and V6 of Midjourney were vast - as was my learning curve. Equally, that pack will be released in full size images for those that want it.

The challenge around genericness is that they were based on the original renders. If I’d made them all super unique and new, I’d have gotten cries of “but that’s not what X looks like”. This is where you also battle the difference between real world realism and a fantasyverse. Most of the independent scene in wrestling is exactly what you describe - generic and copycat. People look alike, people look dull. Not everybody looks like Jeff Hardy - but your top tier guys and girls tend to have a little more about them. 

If you want everybody to look like a unique, flamboyant megastar, this was never going to be the picture pack for you and stats like star quality and sex appeal become less relevant because everybody looks like a superstar. 

Not trying to dismiss your view, just sharing some of the thought process and why certain decisions were made.

Ultimately bear in mind that this pic pack was originally made for my own personal preference and amusement for TEW 2020, long before anybody even knew IX was coming. I’d already basically completed it before Adam ever questioned using it - so this was still very much a community piece of work.

 

[beatingstuff88]

2 hours ago, JackH2020 said:

It makes me really want to see a hybrid Real World meets the Cornelverse database. I've drifted away from RW as I find I just get locked into sign the people I know and use them very similar to real life but I think throwing a couple hundred cverse workers into one might shake things up a bit.

Wouldnt you be able to do that by making a new database and just importing all the default workers and real world people? it might take a lot of finagling with dates and stuff but i think that'd be very doable

[BigDPW]

My general thoughts on the realistic looking renders in TEW IX are below:

• Overall I like the realistic look over the cartoonish look of the old renders (though I have grown attached to some of the rerenders over the years)
• Generally I think these renders compared to previous default database renders are a massive improvement in immersion
• I am impressed with how true to the default characters renders many of these AI generated renders landed
• Backgrounds are too dark for many of the renders (dark hair, dark skin tones) and makes seeing them a challenge (not to mention the size of the renders on even a 1080p screen are hard to see)
• The lighting is very inconsistent and some time makes it difficult to see the worker especially on a black background.
• Backgrounds are varied some plain black, some with a radiant grey or light on the black background - the inconsistency is a bit off putting at times. My suggestion would be a mid to dark grey for a background that would allow clear contrast between the workers image and the background
  • Example of black background making it hard to see worker:

    

  • Example of the varied backgrounds:

    
  • Example of a good background tone:
    •  
• Probably about 30-50% of the masked workers need to be rerendered. The shape of the masks for many of them is strange and does not conform to their head. While many of the patterns/decorations to the masks are cool the shape throws the whole thing off.
  • Mask examples: (the more I look at these it is almost like they were trying too hard to look like the CVerse originals as a byproduct of old DAZ generated masks? which led to the oddly shaped masks?)

    

• When you use the smaller images with the company background/border the images are too small an difficult to see.

 

Edited July 28 by BigDPW

[EdJames]

10 minutes ago, BigDPW said:

My general thoughts on the realistic looking renders in TEW IX are below:

• Overall I like the realistic look over the cartoonish look of the old renders (though I have grown attached to some of the rerenders over the years)
• Generally I think these renders compared to previous default database renders are a massive improvement in immersion
• I am impressed with how true to the default characters renders many of these AI generated renders landed
• Backgrounds are too dark for many of the renders (dark hair, dark skin tones) and makes seeing them a challenge (not to mention the size of the renders on even a 1080p screen are hard to see)
• The lighting is very inconsistent and some time makes it difficult to see the worker especially on a black background.
• Backgrounds are varied some plain black, some with a radiant grey or light on the black background - the inconsistency is a bit off putting at times. My suggestion would be a mid to dark grey for a background that would allow clear contrast between the workers image and the background
  • Example of black background making it hard to see worker:

    

  • Example of the varied backgrounds:

    
  • Example of a good background tone:
    •  
• Probably about 30-50% of the masked workers need to be rerendered. The shape of the masks for many of them is strange and does not conform to their head. While many of the patterns/decorations to the masks are cool the shape throws the whole thing off.
  • Mask examples: (the more I look at these it is almost like they were trying too hard to look like the CVerse originals as a byproduct of old DAZ generated masks? which led to the oddly shaped masks?)

    

• When you use the smaller images with the company background/border the images are too small an difficult to see.

 

I really appreciate all the feedback and work that went into this response.

Agree on the lighting and have tried to fix that in an upcoming update. I was always a fan of the duo-tone grey background from back in the day, I think from a real world mod. But that more I think about it, the more I’d like to see these on the blue background for a number of varying reasons.

Good shout on the masks, TBH. I tried to match the original images wherever possible because I thought people would prefer that. Masked wrestlers was one of the first things I tackled with the upcoming day one update, so hopefully you’ll like those more.

[CGN91]

First of all: Great job Ed! I think the more realistic faces adds a ton to the world. At first I was a bit sceptic about the style, but the more I'm playing the more I like it. I echo the feedback made by BigDPW especially about the masked wrestlers and the background. 

[BigDPW]

24 minutes ago, EdJames said:

I really appreciate all the feedback and work that went into this response.

Agree on the lighting and have tried to fix that in an upcoming update. I was always a fan of the duo-tone grey background from back in the day, I think from a real world mod. But that more I think about it, the more I’d like to see these on the blue background for a number of varying reasons.

Good shout on the masks, TBH. I tried to match the original images wherever possible because I thought people would prefer that. Masked wrestlers was one of the first things I tackled with the upcoming day one update, so hopefully you’ll like those more.

Ed,

Please don't take my feedback and knocking your work. You took on a massive job and rendered these very well. You should be proud of the default release work. You rendered these as true to the originals as you could I think. Thanks for hearing my constructive feedback on the renders and thanks for working on updates. The MidJourney cost will mean some of us will not be quick to start rerendering as easily in this style and your work to update these TEW9 defaults where you can will be helpful.

 

To be honest even though I saw your replies in the impressions thread I was skimming through those so fast I overlooked that you were responsible for the pulling together the AI renders for the new game. Thanks again for taking that on. I think it adds quite a bit to the game.

[EdJames]

2 minutes ago, BigDPW said:

Ed,

Please don't take my feedback and knocking your work. You took on a massive job and rendered these very well. You should be proud of the default release work. You rendered these as true to the originals as you could I think. Thanks for hearing my constructive feedback on the renders and thanks for working on updates. The MidJourney cost will mean some of us will not be quick to start rerendering as easily in this style and your work to update these TEW9 defaults where you can will be helpful.

 

To be honest even though I saw your replies in the impressions thread I was skimming through those so fast I overlooked that you were responsible for the pulling together the AI renders for the new game. Thanks again for taking that on. I think it adds quite a bit to the game.

Didn’t take it that way at all. Genuinely thought it was great feedback 😊

[Powerful_Fox]

Would it be possible to also play around with facial expressions @EdJames mate?

 

The renders look like real humans but I'm personally struggling to see them as wrestling characters as many of them have a bit of an expressionless thousand yard stare.

I assume this is somewhat hard to achieve with photo realistic AI rendering.

Edited July 28 by Powerful_Fox

[JackH2020]

1 hour ago, beatingstuff88 said:

Wouldnt you be able to do that by making a new database and just importing all the default workers and real world people? it might take a lot of finagling with dates and stuff but i think that'd be very doable

Ohhh for sure it's something I'll probably mess around with once some databases get released. The dream scenario would probably be something like 1990 RW meets 2016 Cverse and taking my favourites from each and watching their entire career unfold.

[EdJames]

1 hour ago, Powerful_Fox said:

Would it be possible to also play around with facial expressions @EdJames mate?

 

The renders look like real humans but I'm personally struggling to see them as wrestling characters as many of them have a bit of an expressionless thousand yard stare.

I assume this is somewhat hard to achieve with photo realistic AI rendering.

Again, they’re all trying to copy their Cornellverse expressions. My intention was that if you create the base images as neutral as possible, the alt community can then go nuts. There’s plenty of free tools out that that’ll enable you to feed in a picture and say “make him happier” or “make him angrier”.

Equally, I’d always intended the images to be an evolving body of work. Ones the community hate can be reworked, ones people have suggestions for will be listened to. What this means for now though is that we have 3,000 images and 1,000+ unassigned pictures that start off looking essentially the same and they can evolve from there.

[MikeSc]

Not a fan of AI taking actual people's jobs, but at the same time a lot of the new renders look pretty good.

[Skol Viking]

As a total non-contributor to the great renders and mods we have seen with this series, I love the updated/modern pictures.  This had been my biggest gripe with some workers in the game.  I didn't like the picture so I would not hire them.  I would love to see an overhaul of title belt pics along with logos, events, tv shows, etc.  This community is what has always driven me back to the series.  I hope this community will continue to be passionate about the series and continue to grow.  In my opinion this series has always needed a face lift and I think this is a great start!  

[hollywoodshinebox]

47 minutes ago, EdJames said:

Again, they’re all trying to copy their Cornellverse expressions. My intention was that if you create the base images as neutral as possible, the alt community can then go nuts. There’s plenty of free tools out that that’ll enable you to feed in a picture and say “make him happier” or “make him angrier”.

Equally, I’d always intended the images to be an evolving body of work. Ones the community hate can be reworked, ones people have suggestions for will be listened to. What this means for now though is that we have 3,000 images and 1,000+ unassigned pictures that start off looking essentially the same and they can evolve from there.

What are these tools?

[EdJames]

5 minutes ago, MikeSc said:

Not a fan of AI taking actual people's jobs, but at the same time a lot of the new renders look pretty good.

To reassure you, it sort of didn’t.

The picture pack you’re seeing already existed - there was never a job on offer and this was never “outsourced” per se.

[EdJames]

2 minutes ago, hollywoodshinebox said:

What are these tools?

FaceApp is one.

Photoshop (not free) has generative AI and you can also use the neural filters to change expressions of people’s faces, eye direction etc.

[ericmassak]

2 hours ago, BigDPW said:

To be honest even though I saw your replies in the impressions thread I was skimming through those so fast I overlooked that you were responsible for the pulling together the AI renders for the new game. Thanks again for taking that on. I think it adds quite a bit to the game.

Agreed with DPW. For the issue of different background shades, what about blue with blue lines? 🙂

1 hour ago, EdJames said:

Equally, I’d always intended the images to be an evolving body of work. Ones the community hate can be reworked, ones people have suggestions for will be listened to. What this means for now though is that we have 3,000 images and 1,000+ unassigned pictures that start off looking essentially the same and they can evolve from there.

Also thumbs up for this.

 

There's so many workers, and I'm sure people have conflicting opinions about what a worker should look like. I wonder if it would be possible to set up some sort of organized request process. Something like a google form that can be exported to Excel. That way you can prioritize a one-off "this worker who left the business has a weird face" versus 100 people saying that so and so has 100 sex appeal but looks hideous.

One last thought is around the size of the images. This is perhaps more of a Ryan question, but given the amount of detail on these workers, can we make them bigger? Or swap out worker+border for enlarged worker photos.

[EdJames]

10 minutes ago, ericmassak said:

Agreed with DPW. For the issue of different background shades, what about blue with blue lines? 🙂

Also thumbs up for this.

 

There's so many workers, and I'm sure people have conflicting opinions about what a worker should look like. I wonder if it would be possible to set up some sort of organized request process. Something like a google form that can be exported to Excel. That way you can prioritize a one-off "this worker who left the business has a weird face" versus 100 people saying that so and so has 100 sex appeal but looks hideous.

One last thought is around the size of the images. This is perhaps more of a Ryan question, but given the amount of detail on these workers, can we make them bigger? Or swap out worker+border for enlarged worker photos.

Given anything from this point is off my own back, I’m inclined to produce transparent, full-size GIFS and a full size JPG pack on blue backgrounds.

[benjirino]

Personally I absolutely adore the change. The old images were fine on first release but they've not aged well. They're very "early 00s e-fed" kind of images, and if I didn't have a long term association and  wasn't a fan of the series for over two decades and just came into the game new I'd probably think they were kind of tacky. I think the AI images are great, they make the people feel more real and the world more lived in, especially the fact I now see the characters I've known aged up over the years. There's a few that are a bit off, but given there's over 2000 characters in the database, a few wrong'uns here or there is a damn good ratio of positives.

[EdJames]

5 minutes ago, benjirino said:

Personally I absolutely adore the change. The old images were fine on first release but they've not aged well. They're very "early 00s e-fed" kind of images, and if I didn't have a long term association and  wasn't a fan of the series for over two decades and just came into the game new I'd probably think they were kind of tacky. I think the AI images are great, they make the people feel more real and the world more lived in, especially the fact I now see the characters I've known aged up over the years. There's a few that are a bit off, but given there's over 2000 characters in the database, a few wrong'uns here or there is a damn good ratio of positives.

Do shout the ones out your think are “off”

[benjirino]

Celeste Moon, El Avatar, and Electric Dreamer all look a bit more like paintings than the others in the game. Hexx just looks like he has the weirdest proportions and looks cartoonish. Of the roster I've got (81 workers), that's four that look off, that's a bloody good ratio, less than 5% looking off, and none look actually bad, they just don't match the style of the rest.

[EdJames]

17 minutes ago, benjirino said:

Celeste Moon, El Avatar, and Electric Dreamer all look a bit more like paintings than the others in the game. Hexx just looks like he has the weirdest proportions and looks cartoonish. Of the roster I've got (81 workers), that's four that look off, that's a bloody good ratio, less than 5% looking off, and none look actually bad, they just don't match the style of the rest.

Good news - they’re all in the update pack I’m preparing.

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by EdJames